God help me, I've become a social democrat

[Gandalf]

Have you considered we were going to Iraq anyway 9/11 or no 9/11? Have you considered that Saddam could have just followed the treaty of the Persian Gulf War? Have you considered that even as botched as this war has been that it is admirable that the US decided to stay and fix what we broke and not leave the aforementioned "poor Iraqi civilians" to be brutalized by whatever tough guy would have taken over?


I'll argue with people all fucking day about Iraq it doesn't matter how we got there (mainly because nobody can change that) it matters that we are there now and it matters what we do there right now. But that's apparently too much for the anti-war people to handle at this point in time....oh let's sit down and have a finger pointing session while Iraq is in a state of anarchy....oh splendid.


Doesn't it matter that this mess gets cleaned up? Oh no I'm sorry what was I thinking we just have to find people to blame and everything will fix itself....that's the way of the world.

Of course it matters how you got involved in Iraq.

The war was started on a foundation of misinformation, lies and a complete lack of legitimacy. Then there is Guantanamo bay and the lack of respect regarding human rights. And now the economy is imploding, undoubtably the costly wars havent helped too much. Afghanistan even appears to be deteriorating. And a national debt your grandchildren will most likely be subsidising as a result of it all.

Its fucked up, and you show yourself up trying to defend or excuse that kind of nonsense.

[CFH]

CFH, Canada is a joke. I've lived in both countries. I'll take the inner city gettos of USA over the canadian gov't handing out my tax dollars to lazy fucks who can do anythin they want and still get paid any day.

Canada is so fuckign socialized it makes me sick. The poor suck you and I dry.. 95% of them are there b'c they're lazy. It sucks down the middle class bigtime.

I DO know both countries, but choose not to get involved in this shit.

Have you ever lived in an inner city ghetto?

I've also lived in both countries, though I was a kid when I lived in the States, and while neither are perfect I'll pick Canada all day over the US.

So you're saying that you'd rather have people starving, committing crimes in order to get by etc. then have higher taxes. Fair enough, that's your opinion, but I do not agree with it.

There is more to life than money, despite what some people will have you believe.

[El Kabong]

miles it doesn't change the fact that we're there....do you get where I'm coming from?



And even if there were never any WMDs or anything like that all Saddam had to do was play ball and everything would have been fine but nooooo Saddam had to be a big shot and try to show us up and we called his bluff and now he's dead and we're well within our rights to call someone out on a treaty they agreed to or else the whole idea of signing a treaty is bogus.


Had someone done that with Germany a while back then well let's just say a lot of shit could have been avoided

[CFH]

Canada has a fraction of the people of the US.


Oooh the war in Iraq has offended Canada alert the media

We do have less people than the US. Very astute. You said we spend "too much" money on welfare, that statement made no qualifications about population size.

The Iraq war has not offended Canada, it has however almost universally disgusted anyone with a brain worldwide, it has also resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people,

One could even make the assertion that the thousands of American soldiers coming home in body bags and the tens of thousands coming home without limbs and faces are more deserving of their lot than the innocent Iraqi's who have died, considering those same soldiers freely (economics and governmental propaganda aside) signed on to enforce the will of the people they are representing, the same people who started this war without any legitimate cause.

Have you ever considered how shameful this war is to the memory of those who died on 9/11?

It may be now, but it wasn't 7 years ago.

Yes it was. That makes zero sense. Just because a large number of people were too blinded by rage and a thirst for revenge to see what was happening doesn't mean it was not a shame. The government used the names of people who were murdered to perpetrate more killing against other innocent people.

[CFH]

miles it doesn't change the fact that we're there....do you get where I'm coming from?



And even if there were never any WMDs or anything like that all Saddam had to do was play ball and everything would have been fine but nooooo Saddam had to be a big shot and try to show us up and we called his bluff and now he's dead and we're well within our rights to call someone out on a treaty they agreed to or else the whole idea of signing a treaty is bogus.


Had someone done that with Germany a while back then well let's just say a lot of shit could have been avoided

Did you just compare Iraq to Nazi Germany? Jesus fucking Christ. The power and actions of those two nations are nowhere near comparable.

[El Kabong]

I'd much rather just have people willing to work to make money rather than pop out children and have my tax dollars go to feeding those leeches......those welfare breeders ought to be fixed after their first litter....and yes I have seen how bad the situation is hense the demeaning nature of my response. Before you get all up in arms YES I do understand some people need and deserve welfare however you must also understand that a LARGE portion of welfare recipiants are lazy worthless scum of the earth people, go to South Carolina I am sure you'll see some there and any of our members who live down there will agree with me.


Did Germany invade it's neighboring countries? Did Iraq (anyone recall Kuwait?) Well then seems to me that they were KIND OF similar only Iraq's armed forces totally suck and America's have gotten hella better. It was a similar situation and a relevant case to cite something that could have happened if no action was taken.

Well I'm just happy our conscience to the north is so worried about us...it's good to know you care, you're Canada everyone loves you and why is that No one expects anything from you

[Gandalf]

miles it doesn't change the fact that we're there....do you get where I'm coming from?



And even if there were never any WMDs or anything like that all Saddam had to do was play ball and everything would have been fine but nooooo Saddam had to be a big shot and try to show us up and we called his bluff and now he's dead and we're well within our rights to call someone out on a treaty they agreed to or else the whole idea of signing a treaty is bogus.


Had someone done that with Germany a while back then well let's just say a lot of shit could have been avoided

There were no WMDs. The war was built on false premises.

Comparing it to Nazi Germany is way off too. The Germans were a obviously a threat with a heap of military build up and a worrying tendency to keep trying to expand their borders. A hugely powerful country. Iraq was feeble and hadnt actually done anything to provoke the latest war. Except for these WMD's that didnt actually exist.

I agree with you that the US is now entrenched in Iraq. But the reasons they are still there are because there was no coherent plan in the first place. And like I said, Afghanistan is only deteriorating, and that was the primary target in response to the so called "terror threat". Iraq has nothing to do with that.

Anybody wanting a perpetuation of this administration must be out of their minds. You seem to be somewhat myopic when it comes to politics, Lyle. You will always defend your ideology no matter the moral vacuousness that sometimes entails. A lot of what has happened under this administration has been inhumane and fundamentally dishonest, and yet you continue to make excuses for what is very serious and basically wrong.

[Gandalf]

I'd much rather just have people willing to work to make money rather than pop out children and have my tax dollars go to feeding those leeches......those welfare breeders ought to be fixed after their first litter....and yes I have seen how bad the situation is hense the demeaning nature of my response. Before you get all up in arms YES I do understand some people need and deserve welfare however you must also understand that a LARGE portion of welfare recipiants are lazy worthless scum of the earth people, go to South Carolina I am sure you'll see some there and any of our members who live down there will agree with me.


Did Germany invade it's neighboring countries? Did Iraq (anyone recall Kuwait?) Well then seems to me that they were KIND OF similar only Iraq's armed forces totally suck and America's have gotten hella better. It was a similar situation and a relevant case to cite something that could have happened if no action was taken.

Well I'm just happy our conscience to the north is so worried about us...it's good to know you care, you're Canada everyone loves you and why is that No one expects anything from you

Though a bit strong for my liking, I do agree with some of your views in the first paragraph. Too much welfare is not a healthy thing. I think everybody deserves health care coverage provided by the state. But I do think ultimately people should work hard and pay to support themselves. Too many people looking for easy way outs and something for nothing. They need their hands slapping away and good lecture on the values of going out and getting a job.

[CFH]

I'd much rather just have people willing to work to make money rather than pop out children and have my tax dollars go to feeding those leeches......those welfare breeders ought to be fixed after their first litter....and yes I have seen how bad the situation is hense the demeaning nature of my response. Before you get all up in arms YES I do understand some people need and deserve welfare however you must also understand that a LARGE portion of welfare recipiants are lazy worthless scum of the earth people, go to South Carolina I am sure you'll see some there and any of our members who live down there will agree with me.

You're either completely ignorant or just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Have you ever met anyone who said their goal in life is to leech of the system? Do you have any idea how degrading it must be to exist like that?

Very few people on welfare are abusing the system, though some do exist. However, it doesn't make much sense to disband the police because of some rogue cops because the positive outweights the negative in terms of public well-being and it's the same with welfare. I understand the poor are an easy scapegoat, it's been that way forever (when the Jews weren't available anyway). However, a fraction of government spending (in any country) goes towards welfare, and the VAST majority of people who accept welfare are on it for less than a year.

I've been to some of the most poverty stricken places you can imagine. The people are not worthless, lazy, scum. They are poor. People do not begin life with an even playing field.

A large portion of welfare reciepients are not lazy, worthless, scum of the earth people. Believe or not, they're just like you and I.

Did Germany invade it's neighboring countries? Did Iraq (anyone recall Kuwait?) Well then seems to me that they were KIND OF similar only Iraq's armed forces totally suck and America's have gotten hella better. It was a similar situation and a relevant case to cite something that could have happened if no action was taken.

Then I guess America is the same as Nazi Germany considering they have repeatedly invaded other sovereign nations without provocation. Glad you cleared that up for me. They've also instituted genocidal campaigns based on race though, so maybe there are some similarities there.

It was not a similar case. There are very few similarities that are not completely superficial. Prior to the First Gulf War Iraq has accumulated its military power thanks in large part to the US. After the first Gulf War, they were basically unable to defend their own territory, let alone pose a threat to other nations in the region.

If you keep making arguments like that you're going to be a godawful lawyer. Hell, you might even end up on welfare.

Well I'm just happy our conscience to the north is so worried about us...it's good to know you care, you're Canada everyone loves you and why is that No one expects anything from you

This has nothing to do with Canada, or any of the other nations which disagree with you. Plenty of Americans feel the same way. It has nothing to do with nationality, it has to do with right and wrong. Good try though.

[El Kabong]

Was Saddam do what he was supposed to? He did gas people before and refusing to give weapons inspectors a free pass sealed his fate...simple as that.


Listen miles, I don't like W, I am not defending his reasons for going to war I'm merely saying it's possible we were already on track to fight with Iraq anyway and after 9/11 just gave us the green light to do it.....Clinton was talking about military action vs Iraq before he left office....the only thing was W tried to take over the entire country(bad idea) with too few troops and no knowledge of the cultures there.


In the end there is a reason that is justafiable for military action vs Iraq...is wasn't the one they used but hey we could have just said "We don't like the way they are looking at us" it doesn't really change things too much at this point




Where's the outrage about LBJ?!?!?! That war was a TON more costly in lives and casualties but nobody ever mentions how bogus the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was. Or how about the Bay of Pigs Oh that was BRILLIANT but nooo we just won't talk abotu that because if we did then we couldn't pretend to be as shocked as we are about Iraq.

I'm not vacuous I'm just making a different point which IS valid, and I'm not saying there were WMD's obviously there weren't but hey the threat was there and Saddam didn't do his job to stop us which would have been nonviolent, peaceful, and maybe have built a bridge of trust between us after all we put him in power there

[CFH]

Was Saddam do what he was supposed to? He did gas people before and refusing to give weapons inspectors a free pass sealed his fate...simple as that.


Listen miles, I don't like W, I am not defending his reasons for going to war I'm merely saying it's possible we were already on track to fight with Iraq anyway and after 9/11 just gave us the green light to do it.....Clinton was talking about military action vs Iraq before he left office....the only thing was W tried to take over the entire country(bad idea) with too few troops and no knowledge of the cultures there.


In the end there is a reason that is justafiable for military action vs Iraq...is wasn't the one they used but hey we could have just said "We don't like the way they are looking at us" it doesn't really change things too much at this point

It doesn't matter if it was W, Clinton, or my Grandma, it was still wrong. There is no reason that I have heard that justifies the war with Iraq or its outcomes.

Iraq did agree to allow weapons inspectors, and then the demands were increased to include Saddam and his sons leaving the country.

Where's the outrage about LBJ?!?!?! That war was a TON more costly in lives and casualties but nobody ever mentions how bogus the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was

Are you fucking kidding me? That is one of the most universally derided incidents in US history.

[El Kabong]

You're either completely ignorant or just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Have you ever met anyone who said their goal in life is to leech of the system? Do you have any idea how degrading it must be to exist like that?

Very few people on welfare are abusing the system, though some do exist. However, it doesn't make much sense to disband the police because of some rogue cops because the positive outweights the negative in terms of public well-being and it's the same with welfare. I understand the poor are an easy scapegoat, it's been that way forever (when the Jews weren't available anyway). However, a fraction of government spending (in any country) goes towards welfare, and the VAST majority of people who accept welfare are on it for less than a year.

I've been to some of the most poverty stricken places you can imagine. The people are not worthless, lazy, scum. They are poor. People do not begin life with an even playing field.

A large portion of welfare reciepients are not lazy, worthless, scum of the earth people. Believe or not, they're just like you and I.

....believe it or not buddy there are people out there who are no good leeches.

Isn't BoxingGorilla from South Carolina....ask him about the people down there.....poor worthless bastards. It's not ALL people on welfare but in certain areas like Walterboro, SC it's a MAJORITY of those people who are welfare ticks.

I'm not scapegoating, I'm telling you the truth. My aunt is a RN down in SC and she delivers babies and we'll just say she sees the same customers quite often, they never pay the hospital bills, they obviously can't afford kids and neither can the government but the government pays for them....families with 7-8 kids bang bang bang one right after the other.

[CFH]

You're either completely ignorant or just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Have you ever met anyone who said their goal in life is to leech of the system? Do you have any idea how degrading it must be to exist like that?

Very few people on welfare are abusing the system, though some do exist. However, it doesn't make much sense to disband the police because of some rogue cops because the positive outweights the negative in terms of public well-being and it's the same with welfare. I understand the poor are an easy scapegoat, it's been that way forever (when the Jews weren't available anyway). However, a fraction of government spending (in any country) goes towards welfare, and the VAST majority of people who accept welfare are on it for less than a year.

I've been to some of the most poverty stricken places you can imagine. The people are not worthless, lazy, scum. They are poor. People do not begin life with an even playing field.

A large portion of welfare reciepients are not lazy, worthless, scum of the earth people. Believe or not, they're just like you and I.

....believe it or not buddy there are people out there who are no good leeches.

Isn't BoxingGorilla from South Carolina....ask him about the people down there.....poor worthless bastards. It's not ALL people on welfare but in certain areas like Walterboro, SC it's a MAJORITY of those people who are welfare ticks.

I'm not scapegoating, I'm telling you the truth. My aunt is a RN down in SC and she delivers babies and we'll just say she sees the same customers quite often, they never pay the hospital bills, they obviously can't afford kids and neither can the government but the government pays for them....families with 7-8 kids bang bang bang one right after the other.

I never once said there were not welfare leeches, but the numbers are very small relative to the number of people who are receiving welfare, just because you know someone who does it does not change that.. And it is scape goating. A few people who abuse the system do not make the system worthless.

[El Kabong]

it's a large enough number that something about the system needs to be fixed I will say that

[Gandalf]

Was Saddam do what he was supposed to? He did gas people before and refusing to give weapons inspectors a free pass sealed his fate...simple as that.


Listen miles, I don't like W, I am not defending his reasons for going to war I'm merely saying it's possible we were already on track to fight with Iraq anyway and after 9/11 just gave us the green light to do it.....Clinton was talking about military action vs Iraq before he left office....the only thing was W tried to take over the entire country(bad idea) with too few troops and no knowledge of the cultures there.


In the end there is a reason that is justafiable for military action vs Iraq...is wasn't the one they used but hey we could have just said "We don't like the way they are looking at us" it doesn't really change things too much at this point




Where's the outrage about LBJ?!?!?! That war was a TON more costly in lives and casualties but nobody ever mentions how bogus the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was. Or how about the Bay of Pigs Oh that was BRILLIANT but nooo we just won't talk abotu that because if we did then we couldn't pretend to be as shocked as we are about Iraq.

I'm not vacuous I'm just making a different point which IS valid, and I'm not saying there were WMD's obviously there weren't but hey the threat was there and Saddam didn't do his job to stop us which would have been nonviolent, peaceful, and maybe have built a bridge of trust between us after all we put him in power there

The highlighted part makes a case for invading pretty much every country in the world.

Actually, what follows isnt connected but I will talk anyway. I live in the strange land where hundreds of thousands took to the streets to protest against the import of "polluted" US beef. Apparently it was infected with mad cow disease and everyone was going to die. Utter bollocks of course, but perpetuated through the media here and peoples general ignorance. These protests went on for fucking weeks and even now I cannot get access to cheap, decent US beef.

Meanwhile, China has this scandal with melamine infecting each and every product. Korea is right next door and has of course been affected. Now where are the protests and mass rallies? Nobody's talking about it. Nobody cares. Utter nonsense I tell you. Koreans seem to be infected with hypocrisy more than anything else.

So if the US wants to invade somewhere because people are looking at them the wrong way, then they are welcome to start here. South of the border. Dont border with them in the North.

I just want a reasonably priced steak!