MJ tribute

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Yeah, the likes of Sharpton & Jackson have sold out a lot of what they originally stood for & now just try to say what they think people want to hear & keeps their faces visible.

This thing of trying to put Michael Jackson in some kind of iconic political frame really pisses me off. Ignoring is private life completely, you can say he was a great musician & possibly the biggest superstar of all time. What he is not is some great political leader in the manner of Martin, Malcolm or Obama. He had a huge musical influence, but in no way was he responsible for a black man being elected into the white house.

Sorry fellas but how many black faces were really on MTV before him?

Why do people think The Cosby Show was important socially.

It started to turn black in to mainstream. White kids liked em equally.

Even from across the pond I could see that.

White kids also loved Jimi Hendrix it doesn't mean he was responsible for reducing racism. MJ was no more responsible than the scores of sports stars in the US. The Cosby Show whilst important, also had some negative impacts on the African-American community, particularly in establishing a 'good black folk' attitude amongst some. It was positive in not overly mentioning race such as The Jeffersons did, however it did not play the socially cohesive role many give it now.

'Black' becoming mainstream is a result of a number of factors of which music & MJ are only a part, & do not deserve the credit for Obama getting into the White House, because that was his own doing. Jackson deserves no more credit for that than Michael Jordan or Walter Payton

Also on MTV, whilst it had a colour barrier prior to MJ's 2nd album that was largely its own construction & heavily criticized by many before that. Yes, he along with Tina Turner, Whitney Houston & Prince did break that down, however MTV was not the huge commercially successful channel it is now, & reached far fewer homes in those days.

Yes much more terrible to show a happy, wealthy successful black family than the drug dealers, whores, thieves we know them to be

That in itself was a stereotype - it's ok for blacks to successful in sports. It's still seen as a way out of poverty rather than education or going to law school. It was ok for blacks to sing and dance. Essentially anything to do with entertainment.

I'm not over or underplaying his status. I'm just saying to suggest his influence was only 80's pop doesn't cover it. Things like this are more complex.

Ripples on the pond.

[Saddo]

anyways.... here is my all time fav MJ song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hg-IRZk4D0

hope this helps

[JazMerkin]

Sorry fellas but how many black faces were really on MTV before him?

Why do people think The Cosby Show was important socially.

It started to turn black in to mainstream. White kids liked em equally.

Even from across the pond I could see that.

White kids also loved Jimi Hendrix it doesn't mean he was responsible for reducing racism. MJ was no more responsible than the scores of sports stars in the US. The Cosby Show whilst important, also had some negative impacts on the African-American community, particularly in establishing a 'good black folk' attitude amongst some. It was positive in not overly mentioning race such as The Jeffersons did, however it did not play the socially cohesive role many give it now.

'Black' becoming mainstream is a result of a number of factors of which music & MJ are only a part, & do not deserve the credit for Obama getting into the White House, because that was his own doing. Jackson deserves no more credit for that than Michael Jordan or Walter Payton

Also on MTV, whilst it had a colour barrier prior to MJ's 2nd album that was largely its own construction & heavily criticized by many before that. Yes, he along with Tina Turner, Whitney Houston & Prince did break that down, however MTV was not the huge commercially successful channel it is now, & reached far fewer homes in those days.

Yes much more terrible to show a happy, wealthy successful black family than the drug dealers, whores, thieves we know them to be

That in itself was a stereotype - it's ok for blacks to successful in sports. It's still seen as a way out of poverty rather than education or going to law school. It was ok for blacks to sing and dance. Essentially anything to do with entertainment.

I'm not over or underplaying his status. I'm just saying to suggest his influence was only 80's pop doesn't cover it. Things like this are more complex.

Ripples on the pond.

Not what I said at all, & as I am half-black & live in that community that is not what I'm suggesting so don't try pull that. However, it suggested that if a black person couldn't become an upper middle-class success story, than it was their own fault. So someone born into poverty, who works hard every day as a labourer becomes labelled as 'bad black folk' rather than a working class man, & it fuelled the agendas of the likes of Bill O'Reilly that there was no racial inequality in America. I NEVER said it was bad to show that, however, it also ignored the reality for many African-Americans. Cosby has frequently criticized those in the black underclass for immorality, which is just as stupid as a white comedian always talking about 'chavs' in a bid for cheap laughs.

As for your 2nd paragraph, yes I'm well aware that those are 'the ways out', I've had that myself, however young people going to university & being successful in other professions for me is what got Obama to the White House. People's doctors, lawyers, accountants etc were now black, & I think this not some pop star are what softened attitudes & played a bigger part in Obama's election.

He had a great musical influence, but like you say black people were already accepted as entertainers, so for me he was no more influential than Michael Jordan, Prince or Will Smith. People became more accepting of black people as a whole because they started to encounter them more frequently & with a similar social status. It's the doctors, lawyers, office workers who made the difference not entertainers.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

White kids also loved Jimi Hendrix it doesn't mean he was responsible for reducing racism. MJ was no more responsible than the scores of sports stars in the US. The Cosby Show whilst important, also had some negative impacts on the African-American community, particularly in establishing a 'good black folk' attitude amongst some. It was positive in not overly mentioning race such as The Jeffersons did, however it did not play the socially cohesive role many give it now.

'Black' becoming mainstream is a result of a number of factors of which music & MJ are only a part, & do not deserve the credit for Obama getting into the White House, because that was his own doing. Jackson deserves no more credit for that than Michael Jordan or Walter Payton

Also on MTV, whilst it had a colour barrier prior to MJ's 2nd album that was largely its own construction & heavily criticized by many before that. Yes, he along with Tina Turner, Whitney Houston & Prince did break that down, however MTV was not the huge commercially successful channel it is now, & reached far fewer homes in those days.

Yes much more terrible to show a happy, wealthy successful black family than the drug dealers, whores, thieves we know them to be

That in itself was a stereotype - it's ok for blacks to successful in sports. It's still seen as a way out of poverty rather than education or going to law school. It was ok for blacks to sing and dance. Essentially anything to do with entertainment.

I'm not over or underplaying his status. I'm just saying to suggest his influence was only 80's pop doesn't cover it. Things like this are more complex.

Ripples on the pond.

Not what I said at all, & as I am half-black & live in that community that is not what I'm suggesting so don't try pull that. However, it suggested that if a black person couldn't become an upper middle-class success story, than it was their own fault. So someone born into poverty, who works hard every day as a labourer becomes labelled as 'bad black folk' rather than a working class man, & it fuelled the agendas of the likes of Bill O'Reilly that there was no racial inequality in America. I NEVER said it was bad to show that, however, it also ignored the reality for many African-Americans. Cosby has frequently criticized those in the black underclass for immorality, which is just as stupid as a white comedian always talking about 'chavs' in a bid for cheap laughs.

As for your 2nd paragraph, yes I'm well aware that those are 'the ways out', I've had that myself, however young people going to university & being successful in other professions for me is what got Obama to the White House. People's doctors, lawyers, accountants etc were now black, & I think this not some pop star are what softened attitudes & played a bigger part in Obama's election.

He had a great musical influence, but like you say black people were already accepted as entertainers, so for me he was no more influential than Michael Jordan, Prince or Will Smith. People became more accepting of black people as a whole because they started to encounter them more frequently & with a similar social status. It's the doctors, lawyers, office workers who made the difference not entertainers.

It wasn't a reality show, it was a comedy, that seemed to be for a long time suggesting that you can improve your situation through hard work. Which has to be a good thing? What we got counter to that was rap - which became an ugly parody of itself.
What's the real difference in cosby spouting off about those in the underclass and chris rock playing the whole, it's N...... that are f'ing it up for black people. Comedians here pick on everyone and everything, nothing is sacred nor should it be.

I've heard plenty of black people on US talk shows criticising fellow blacks for talking ghetto, saying it's a stereotype.

Since I didn't see all the event - who said Obama was elected because of Jackson?

[JazMerkin]

Yes much more terrible to show a happy, wealthy successful black family than the drug dealers, whores, thieves we know them to be

That in itself was a stereotype - it's ok for blacks to successful in sports. It's still seen as a way out of poverty rather than education or going to law school. It was ok for blacks to sing and dance. Essentially anything to do with entertainment.

I'm not over or underplaying his status. I'm just saying to suggest his influence was only 80's pop doesn't cover it. Things like this are more complex.

Ripples on the pond.

Not what I said at all, & as I am half-black & live in that community that is not what I'm suggesting so don't try pull that. However, it suggested that if a black person couldn't become an upper middle-class success story, than it was their own fault. So someone born into poverty, who works hard every day as a labourer becomes labelled as 'bad black folk' rather than a working class man, & it fuelled the agendas of the likes of Bill O'Reilly that there was no racial inequality in America. I NEVER said it was bad to show that, however, it also ignored the reality for many African-Americans. Cosby has frequently criticized those in the black underclass for immorality, which is just as stupid as a white comedian always talking about 'chavs' in a bid for cheap laughs.

As for your 2nd paragraph, yes I'm well aware that those are 'the ways out', I've had that myself, however young people going to university & being successful in other professions for me is what got Obama to the White House. People's doctors, lawyers, accountants etc were now black, & I think this not some pop star are what softened attitudes & played a bigger part in Obama's election.

He had a great musical influence, but like you say black people were already accepted as entertainers, so for me he was no more influential than Michael Jordan, Prince or Will Smith. People became more accepting of black people as a whole because they started to encounter them more frequently & with a similar social status. It's the doctors, lawyers, office workers who made the difference not entertainers.

It wasn't a reality show, it was a comedy, that seemed to be for a long time suggesting that you can improve your situation through hard work. Which has to be a good thing? What we got counter to that was rap - which became an ugly parody of itself.
What's the real difference in cosby spouting off about those in the underclass and chris rock playing the whole, it's N...... that are f'ing it up for black people. Comedians here pick on everyone and everything, nothing is sacred nor should it be.

I've heard plenty of black people on US talk shows criticising fellow blacks for talking ghetto, saying it's a stereotype.

Since I didn't see all the event - who said Obama was elected because of Jackson?

Al Sharpton. One of the same people who goes at Obama for not doing 'enough' for black people, as if he should focus on only one part of his electorate

I know it wasn't a reality show, however, many took it as such. It's suggestion that you can improve through hard work I have no problem with. The suggestion that if you can't do that you're trash, I do have a problem with. Cosby has implied that innocent people getting shot by the police have brought in on themselves (Amadou Diallo case) by running away or having their hands in their pockets.

The point was Cosby wasn't doing this in a comedy routine, he was doing it speaking seriously to people. Chris Rock has even said he regretted the Niggers v Black People skit. However, that aimed itself at those who don't seek employment & commit crime. It did not aim at the whole working-class black community as Cosby has.

As for Rap, not all of it is counter-intuitive, much of it does suggest positivity, shockingly even some 'gangsta' rap if you listen to the lyrics. However, in recent years it has been overtaken by a glorification of criminal life & generally living a frivolous lifestyle of sex & partying. I wouldn't criticize the likes of 50 Cent & Young Jeezy for this, who I feel were reflecting on their lifestyle & occasionally offered some insight, however, the likes of Rick Ross, Cam'Ron, Flo-Rida, Soulja Boy & even Lil' Wayne to a point have bastardized hip-hop through glorifying a superficial lifestyle & a 'ghetto' & criminal upbringing often not their own.

PS sorry if you've no idea who any of those people are.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

hey I'm white not dumb

Y'know that Al had the tone of a preacher, that always worries me in a public speaker, spitting fire from the pulpit rather than reason.

Each age has it's political music, punk,reggae,rap. It also has members who suck the brains out of it and turn it in to, smokin a joint, getting pissed, or bling n'bitches & a lot of the time that makes more money.

Listening to a US rapper talk about their tough life doesn't connect to me - it's not my world. I don't like how that attitude has been adopted by UK kids, whiggers all over the place. wtf is up with that? Just trying to be something they're not. If you've not yet heard of them check out Dan le Sac vs Scroobius Pip. That's rap I get connect with....going off topic here

talk more later