Addressing the PED problem

[IamInuit]

Who pays for all the amateur testing that goes on all year long?
You make it a rule. Start at the championship level.

What kind of extra testing are we talking about?

Random for all title fights. The knock on the door at 2 a.m. on a Sunday kind of testing. If boxing really wants to address the issue then some people are going to have to be inconvenienced. These pre/post fight tests are not going to catch anyone unless they have an IQ of 30 and it takes 31 to bark.

The trouble is, athletes have been cheating random drug testing for decades.

What happens is they get an athlete to sign a declaration that states where they can be found during a certain period of time, like "during July, through the hours of 10am-4pm, I can be found at my home at 123 Fake Street in Brooklyn". Shit happens in life though, and an instance might occur where you won't be at the place you said you'd be. Maybe you have to make an unexpected trip to go see a sick relative. So they stipulated that you can miss a random drug test, you just have to go before the commission and present the reason why you weren't where you said you'd be, which is easy enough to do. Then they get you to sign another declaration for a time period several months later.

So an athlete can give an address where he knows he won't be, use PEDs, miss the test, go before a commision and say "sorry that day I had to go visit my uncle in Philly who was sick", sign a declaration for 2 months later, cycle off, and piss clean.

They can't just do it at any time. Then you have guys saying "hey WTF, they woke me up at 2am on a Sunday morning, disturbing my essential rest time, and they tested my opponent at 7pm without disturbing him."

The trouble is, athletes have been cheating random drug testing for decades.

And they will continue to beat random testing but random testing will catch more people then scheduled will if the idea is to take a step. There is also the stigma of being exposed years later like Marion and Lance when science catches up and they retest the blood bank taken by them at different times w/o notice.

What happens is they get an athlete to sign a declaration that states where they can be found during a certain period of time, like "during July, through the hours of 10am-4pm, I can be found at my home at 123 Fake Street in Brooklyn". Shit happens in life though, and an instance might occur where you won't be at the place you said you'd be. Maybe you have to make an unexpected trip to go see a sick relative. So they stipulated that you can miss a random drug test, you just have to go before the commission and present the reason why you weren't where you said you'd be, which is easy enough to do. Then they get you to sign another declaration for a time period several months later.

Its still better then the alternative though which is to let some roid rage freak kill someone because he extremed out and beat the pre and post fight tests. Oh I'm sure that every excuse in the book would be used as to why certain people could not be tested but what does that tell the public?
And I have never seen a random testing contract. Seems a bit of an oxymoron.

So an athlete can give an address where he knows he won't be, use PEDs, miss the test, go before a commision and say "sorry that day I had to go visit my uncle in Philly who was sick", sign a declaration for 2 months later, cycle off, and piss clean.

That is not random testing. And again the statusquo is better how?

They can't just do it at any time. Then you have guys saying "hey WTF, they woke me up at 2am on a Sunday morning, disturbing my essential rest time, and they tested my opponent at 7pm without disturbing him."

Yes they can. They even woke Floyd up.

[Kirkland Laing]

The promotion last weekend grossed well over a hundred million dollars. The US boxing industry grosses billions of dollars a year, never mind the global take. Let's say that the US boxing industry only grosses two billion dollars a year and decides to fund testing for the top thousand boxers. Firstly, testing on that scale would probably significantly reduce the twenty million cost but let's stay at twenty. That's one percent of the gross, and in reality would be much less than one percent.

If a fighter refuses testing treat him the same way any other athlete who refuses testing is treated.

Well first off we're talking GROSS revenue, which, after expenses such as taxes, boxer purses, promotional costs, production costs, lawyer costs, insurance costs, employee payroll costs, ect ect, we're looking at well under that 2 billion estimate left for other expenses.

Secondly, it's going to cost a hell of a lot more than 20 mil to impliment random drug testing on 1000 boxers. You're talking the cost of the test, cost of analyzing the test, paying for scientists and other qualified personal to administer the tests, lab costs, material costs, ect ect. With random drug tests, you'd have to test a boxer at least 6 times a year for it to mean anything, so you're looking at 6000 tests per year. Keep in mind not every boxer lives in a major city like Las Vegas or New York, so you're also paying for travel expenses to fly these drug testers around the world to visit these boxers 6 times a year to administer these tests. We're talking about a hell of a lot of travel $$$. Obviously I don't have the numbers, but to me 20 million is a completely unrealistic number to tackle this kind of task.

So lets say after all the expenses, you have 300 million left. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'll be generous and say that the drug testing you're talking about is going to swallow up at least half of that. So how do we get these guys to agree to give up that extra 50% of their profit margin? Essentially, you're asking them to give up that much money to ensure their fighters don't perform as well and have shorter careers/less fights.

And then you have the issue that the promoter is paying the drug testers directly, so it opens the doors for accusations of corruption and bribes, and the public doesn't fully trust the drug testing after all that. And then you have to also deal with the fact that these extensive drug tests can be cheated, so after all this messing around and spending, you still don't have a gaurentee of a clean sport. And then you have guys who just get a medical exemption to inject testosterone, so your expensive testing doesn't even apply to them.

It just seems unrealistic to me.

I'm going off the figures that VADA came up with. I'm guessing they know what they're talking about. And if you were testing on that scale you could open your own lab, the larger scale testing you do the cheaper it would be. And you'd be testing the top thousand guys once a month which is a serious testing regime.

[TitoFan]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

[IamInuit]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

If the promoters and sanctioning bodies cannot come up with the coin after leeching fighters for billions of dollars over the years then provide a suitable pension/retirement plan based on shelf life.

[TitoFan]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

If the promoters and sanctioning bodies cannot come up with the coin after leeching fighters for billions of dollars over the years then provide a suitable pension/retirement plan based on shelf life.

I think this is a very doable, sensible action, although it doesn't directly take care of the PED problem. Indirectly, however it would make it less "necessary" for over-the-hill fighters to continue hanging on for that last paycheck, particularly when the only motive is paying off debts. Thus, reducing the probability of a washed up fighter getting seriously hurt. Old fighters might also be less prone to try and extend their careers through their own use of PEDs.

But a big portion of those billions should also go toward testing for PEDs. We seem to find a million excuses as to why it can't be done.... but what we need is someone with the gumption to say "Let's just do it and see what happens. We'll tweak the system if needed as we go."

[IamInuit]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

If the promoters and sanctioning bodies cannot come up with the coin after leeching fighters for billions of dollars over the years then provide a suitable pension/retirement plan based on shelf life.

I think this is a very doable, sensible action, although it doesn't directly take care of the PED problem. Indirectly, however it would make it less "necessary" for over-the-hill fighters to continue hanging on for that last paycheck, particularly when the only motive is paying off debts. Thus, reducing the probability of a washed up fighter getting seriously hurt. Old fighters might also be less prone to try and extend their careers through their own use of PEDs.

But a big portion of those billions should also go toward testing for PEDs. We seem to find a million excuses as to why it can't be done.... but what we need is someone with the gumption to say "Let's just do it and see what happens. We'll tweak the system if needed as we go."

Agreed. I guess my point is that if you are going to throw the health of fighters under the bus by ignoring the issue because of probable lost revenue then to me they are at the very least morally obligated (if they have morals) to set up a variety of plans including assured health benefits after the fighters are done. Peds or not. But imo by ignoring the Ped issue these obligations become stronger and philosophically necessary.

[TitoFan]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

If the promoters and sanctioning bodies cannot come up with the coin after leeching fighters for billions of dollars over the years then provide a suitable pension/retirement plan based on shelf life.

I think this is a very doable, sensible action, although it doesn't directly take care of the PED problem. Indirectly, however it would make it less "necessary" for over-the-hill fighters to continue hanging on for that last paycheck, particularly when the only motive is paying off debts. Thus, reducing the probability of a washed up fighter getting seriously hurt. Old fighters might also be less prone to try and extend their careers through their own use of PEDs.

But a big portion of those billions should also go toward testing for PEDs. We seem to find a million excuses as to why it can't be done.... but what we need is someone with the gumption to say "Let's just do it and see what happens. We'll tweak the system if needed as we go."

Agreed. I guess my point is that if you are going to throw the health of fighters under the bus by ignoring the issue because of probable lost revenue then to me they are at the very least morally obligated (if they have morals) to set up a variety of plans including assured health benefits after the fighters are done. Peds or not. But imo by ignoring the Ped issue these obligations become stronger and philosophically necessary.

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

[IamInuit]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

If the promoters and sanctioning bodies cannot come up with the coin after leeching fighters for billions of dollars over the years then provide a suitable pension/retirement plan based on shelf life.

I think this is a very doable, sensible action, although it doesn't directly take care of the PED problem. Indirectly, however it would make it less "necessary" for over-the-hill fighters to continue hanging on for that last paycheck, particularly when the only motive is paying off debts. Thus, reducing the probability of a washed up fighter getting seriously hurt. Old fighters might also be less prone to try and extend their careers through their own use of PEDs.

But a big portion of those billions should also go toward testing for PEDs. We seem to find a million excuses as to why it can't be done.... but what we need is someone with the gumption to say "Let's just do it and see what happens. We'll tweak the system if needed as we go."

Agreed. I guess my point is that if you are going to throw the health of fighters under the bus by ignoring the issue because of probable lost revenue then to me they are at the very least morally obligated (if they have morals) to set up a variety of plans including assured health benefits after the fighters are done. Peds or not. But imo by ignoring the Ped issue these obligations become stronger and philosophically necessary.

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

Either that or simply stop testing all together because the present testing would seem to sustain there use. Yet they frequently catch people with THC residue and make a big deal about it. Pretty hilarious.

[Julius Rain]

What PED problem?

[Beanflicker]

Geeez... enough with the money excuse already. There's plenty of money in boxing. Set aside an appropriate amount for testing. If not, then let's watch the sport continue to suffer from increased PED use until a high profile fighter gets killed or brain damaged. Then... the calls to ban boxing or clean it up will be ringing off the rafters and something will have to be done. Better now than to wait until that happens.

It's not an excuse, it's a serious question that needs a serious, logical answer. There's a lot of moving parts to this machine.

Saying "MAKE THE PROMOTERS PAY THEY'RE RICH WHO CARES" is not a logical plan. Yeah there's a lot of money in boxing, but who's pocket is it coming out of?

And the brain damage thing... fighters have been getting brain damaged and killed since boxing has been around! You don't need steroids to kill/brain damage a guy in the ring, that's been proven time and time again over the last 100 years. Again, that's something you can't quantify.

The theory has always been that punchers are born, not made. For instance, Stefan Bonner was juiced to the gills in his UFC fight against Anderson Silva, and at one point Anderson dropped his hands and let Stefan hit him with flush punches to the face with no effect. Steroids aren't turning Sven Ottke into Julian Jackson, that's just rediculous.

[Beanflicker]

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

I think your boy Tito punching guys with his "cinder-block" hand wraps was more dangerous than any PED you could take.

You're not acknowledging the fact that the money has to come from somewhere, and increased funds are not going to eliminate PEDs.

Would you support an increase in PPV costs for the consumer to cover these drug testing costs? Do you think that would fly? Let's say an extra 5 or 10 bucks per PPV. There would be absolute outrage. People would go INSANE if they had to shell out an extra 5 bucks for testing, but they'd have no problem asking a promotion company to shell out 50 million for testing.

What does that do to the small-time shows and promoters? You think they can afford to pay these extra drug testing costs with their 4-rounders?

[TitoFan]

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

I think your boy Tito punching guys with his "cinder-block" hand wraps was more dangerous than any PED you could take.

You're not acknowledging the fact that the money has to come from somewhere, and increased funds are not going to eliminate PEDs.

Would you support an increase in PPV costs for the consumer to cover these drug testing costs? Do you think that would fly? Let's say an extra 5 or 10 bucks per PPV. There would be absolute outrage. People would go INSANE if they had to shell out an extra 5 bucks for testing, but they'd have no problem asking a promotion company to shell out 50 million for testing.

What does that do to the small-time shows and promoters? You think they can afford to pay these extra drug testing costs with their 4-rounders?

This isn't about your ignorance about boxers, boxing history, or facts in general. It's about the dangers of PED use. If you think the only financial answer is to pass along the cost to the PPV customers, instead of taking a piece of the very large pie consumed by boxers and promoters.... then keep on thinking it. Personally, I'd rather try and do something to solve a very real problem, rather than just sitting with my thumbs up my ass fretting about boxers getting brain damaged.

[IamInuit]

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

I think your boy Tito punching guys with his "cinder-block" hand wraps was more dangerous than any PED you could take.

See I only have to quote this ^^^^^^ because what follows matters not. One of the biggest urban legends of all time as a premise FFS. Inferring that Tito is some Resto or Margarito. Tito's wraps were signed off 39 times prior to Hopkins and it was a complaint about wrap direction not cement inserts u idiot.

[IamInuit]

Oh and if all else fails change the subject.

[TitoFan]

Yep. I just find it inexcusable to be putting up "dollars and cents" barriers and excuses, when PEDs in boxing could easily lead to tragedies in the ring. Suffice it to say the sport has its inherent dangers already. We don't need to add more. And when you see the vast amounts of money flowing in big fights, excuses make even less sense. Just last night I caught part of "The Fight Game", with Jim Lampley... and he closed with a statement regarding the increasing use of PEDs. It's a real issue, and as humorously posted with a picture a few posts back.... it won't go away even if we bury our heads in the sand.

I think your boy Tito punching guys with his "cinder-block" hand wraps was more dangerous than any PED you could take.

See I only have to quote this ^^^^^^ because what follows matters not. One of the biggest urban legends of all time as a premise FFS. Inferring that Tito is some Resto or Margarito. Tito's wraps were signed off 39 times prior to Hopkins and it was a complaint about wrap direction not cement inserts u idiot.

Don't confuse him with the facts.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity".

- Martin Luther King Jr.