Joe Louis has the best record in HW world title fights... Right? Wrong!

[Dark Lord Al]

Oh real funny!

The list is compiled purely by math by the system I outlined (records unpadded with sub200+ fighters, guys who have lost more than a quarter of their fights (=bum).

Can you think of a better system for fair comparison?

Because if you want to look at total records as you would want to to promote your favourites that's fine... BUT you must THEN also consider the CW division as part of the HW division when comparing the records of past warriors to present ones. It then becomes apparent that guys like David Haye have a very good record.


And you MUST delete bums because if you don't then Sonny Liston, LaMar Clarke and Eric Esch Butterbean are the GOAT's!

Your 14 years old right?

[IamInuit]

Ring historian Gilbert Odd wrote, (The Great Champions, p 40),

"Louis jab would snap a man's head back with sickening monotony until he wavered under the steady punishment, then he was speedily finished off with swift and accurate hooks from both hands, or a finely timed right cross that carried such knockdown force that few who took it could survive. Louis was ice cold in action, rarely wasted a punch and had an uncanny way of anticipating and avoiding a blow by the merest move of the head."

Nat Fleischer writing in the April 1939 Ring Magazine said,

"He sails in, crashes his blows to the body and head, gives the opposition little chance to get set for a counter-attack and wards off blows with the cleverness of a Jack Johnson. Only Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey compare to Joe Louis of today in all around ability...No human body can take the punishment that Jolting Joe dishes out once he goes after his prey. That has been proved conclusively in his last few contests."

Jimmy Braddock commenting on Louis power said, (McCallum, 46),

"Nobody hits like Louis. A punch is a punch. But that Louis. Take the first jab he nails you. You know what it's like? It's like someone jammed a electric bulb in your face and busted it." When asked about his right hand, he said, "It ain't like a punch. It's like someone nailed you with a crowbar. I thought half my head was blowed off. I figured he caved it in. After he hit me I couldnt even feel if it was there."

Eddie Futch, who knew Joe Louis and trained with him at Brewster's gym, described Louis power (Anderson pp.231-232),

"Joe's punches could paralyze you...Anywhere he hit you, you'd feel it. Even if he didn't hit you much, just blocking those shots was like being in an automobile accident."

Emmanuel Steward after studying film of Louis-Schemling 2 concurred about Louis paralyzing power, making the following observation, (Pacheco, 45),

"Louis body punches were unbelievable. After Max had been immobolized by a right to the kidney, he took a left hook to the solar plexus which paralyzed him. Even though Max was hurt and wanted to fall down, he couldn't even fall."

Ray Arcel, one of the greatest trainers in history who trained champions such as Barney Ross, Tony Zale, Roberto Duran, and Larry Holmes, also worked against Louis in 14 of his fights said (Anderson p. 120),

"Louis once drove Paulino Uzcudin's teeth right through his mouthpiece!" That's how hard Joe Louis could hit!

But WTF do these guys know?

[Max Power]

They do know what they were talking about. Louis hit hard, Louis is a champion, he was a heavyweight champion of the world for years. That much is a NO-BRAINER!

None of these guys in any of your quotes claim Joe "Hit harder than Lennox Lewis" or "Could have beaten up Ali" or "Deserves to be rated higher than Wladimir Klitschko because he beat up Max Schmelling".

Facts are facts, they are just so. Even if your quotes contained something at all to refute my arguments... It's heresay! And it would warrant looking into their comments for validity. Not taking such things as gospel.

[bradlee180]

Not taking such things as gospel.

Do you think the Gospel is truth, son, why or why not?

[IamInuit]

Just to much. Have a nice thread.

[powerpuncher]

going back to your original argument, the problem with basing things off of records is that boxing was a lot different back then in the aspect of making fights. most fighters were thrown to the wolves at the beginning of their boxing career. most people didnt have much of an amatuer background and learned as they fought and lost a lot because of that. now, people are always padding their record, a thing that didnt really exist back in the day other than maybe a few people who fought exclusively in their own country.

also, if we are just saying who hits hard, then just compare to damage being done. look at what the small dempsey did to willard who was way bigger than him. willard had more bones broken and was in far worse shape than anybody that the klits have beaten. as was quoted before, louis knocked peoples teeth through their mouthpiece. marciano had his power recorded and was seen that it had more energy than an armor piercing bullet and enough energy to amount to lifting 1000 pounds a foot off the ground. so all i have to say that if someone like haye could do something like that then im sure we would hear about it but we dont because he cant. plus, HWs used smaller gloves back then which means that they got used to withstanding punches better.

[Max Power]

You started making sense at the start but then you trailed off into delusion again.

At the end of the day there's no way physically possible Rocky Marciano could hit as hard as David Haye. The reason you don't here about that stuff now is because nobody would care about such things now. There's no point in being able to hit a pressure pad hard if you can't land it. Having said that though nobody would lay a dime on Marciano were they to both perform that test together to get a higher reading.

If you put David in against Marciano's or Louis's run of opponents, ALL of them, he would knock every single one of them out. Every one! And Wladimir and Vitali would too.

We're never gonna agree on this and I've stopped making such threads now so we can just leave it if you like.

[powerpuncher]

im not really sure how i trailed off into delusion with my facts...but whatever.

i just make points here and there on your threads when i have time. sometimes i dont really care to comment and sometimes i will. i dont think you are a bad poster because i have seen you post about other stuff that is about current boxing and you seem fine. you just have the idea in your head that training has come so far that todays boxers are just better. i know that you know that almost all people with boxing knowledge dont believe that so its up to you to believe what you want.

[Bo-Bo24]

You started making sense at the start but then you trailed off into delusion again.

At the end of the day there's no way physically possible Rocky Marciano could hit as hard as David Haye. The reason you don't here about that stuff now is because nobody would care about such things now. There's no point in being able to hit a pressure pad hard if you can't land it. Having said that though nobody would lay a dime on Marciano were they to both perform that test together to get a higher reading.

If you put David in against Marciano's or Louis's run of opponents, ALL of them, he would knock every single one of them out. Every one! And Wladimir and Vitali would too.

We're never gonna agree on this and I've stopped making such threads now so we can just leave it if you like.

Mate even Audley got up from David Hayes punches, don't overstate his power just because it appears to be his leading attribute in an age where everything is analysed to death

[Spicoli]

What good does power do you if you are not fully confident with it, sell out to use it, or for that matter even show up to the arena in the first place. Do you honestly think Marciano would have the mental cartwheels and doubts Haye has shown?! Marciano would climb out of his coffin and jump from the hearse before he would give.

[Max Power]

You guys have it wrong. You are now days clearly in the realm of what is describes as "old time nutbags". I think most sober ppl these days "WITH PLENTY OF BOXING KNOWLEDGE" would agree that the guys your talking about would be banged out in an easy nights work Mr. Powerpuncher.

And as for you Spicoli, I wonder why Haye might be more hesitant than Marciano appeared to be. Take a look at the guys Haye fought and then look at the guys Rocky did. Rest my case. And David Haye didn't have to risk as much regardless because he knew how to box, Marciano barely did.

I would like to see how confident Marciano would be were he to have fought Wladimir Klitschko instead of Haye, ha. We all know what would happen there. Rocky would be knocked out with the first connected jab. Fact!

Audley Harrison would have dominated the Marciano era. I'm positive of THAT!

[Max Power]

I have another test, which I've performed numerous times to my expected affect.

Take a woman, or a child or somebody else who knows nothing at all of boxing. Coach them not at all. Put them in front of an olden days championship fight, then put them in front of a modern championship fight, and ask them to honestly tell you which set looks better?

Almost all say the same thing. The old guys look weak, slow and unco. The new guys look fast, strong and crisp.

[bradlee180]

I have another test, which I've performed numerous times to my expected affect.

Take a woman, or a child or somebody else who knows nothing at all of boxing. Coach them not at all. Put them in front of an olden days championship fight, then put them in front of a modern championship fight, and ask them to honestly tell you which set looks better?

Almost all say the same thing. The old guys look weak, slow and unco. The new guys look fast, strong and crisp.

Could be the recording technology of the time.
Current Heavyweight Title holder Vitali Klitschko is the same physical size and fights virtually the exact same way as Big Jess Willard from about 100 years ago....





^ About 4:48 of the Willard clip for a better closeup of Big Jess...

[bradlee180]

Y'know, I pressed play on both of them at the same time, it's really quite remarkable just how similar Vitali Klitschko and Big Jess Willard fought.

They fight tall, both hands down at the waist, pawing with the jab, an occasional straight right, and tie up and hold whenever the man gets in close.

[Max Power]

Y'know, I pressed play on both of them at the same time, it's really quite remarkable just how similar Vitali Klitschko and Big Jess Willard fought.

They fight tall, both hands down at the waist, pawing with the jab, an occasional straight right, and tie up and hold whenever the man gets in close.

And another smart ass is born! LOL

I think I could find more fitting comparisons than that.

I guess you can find shit looking clips of fights in any era.

So much for that argument lol, well done Bradlee!... Asshole!