EU referendum

[walrus]

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

Is that a bad thing though? I think the way forward is greater European unity. It is a way of improving the rights of the working class whilst competing on the world stage. It is far from perfect, but short of revolution and the end Capitalism, to me it is the best way to go.

They're improving the rights of the working class by the euro central bank enforcing policies which slash wages and benefits in the direction of Asian levels and will continue to do so until they get there. They're improving the rights of working class people by allowing uncontrolled immigration from the third world which increases competition for jobs, slashes the pay rates of those europeans who do manage to hold onto their jobs and puts massive pressure on housing costs and school places/access to healthcare etc. While they're letting the immigrants in they're slashing funding for schools, hospitals, social housing etc. All of these things are easier to do with a massive bureaucracy that runs everything and takes away the sovereignty of individual countries to change or stop these things. They also can sign huge trade agreements on behalf of everybody which put european workers in direct competition with Asian workers.

The whole fucking thing is run by big business. You can't rent any office space for several miles near Brussels centre or Strasbourg centre because it's all full of lobbyists buying off EU politicians.

The EU is an absolute undemocratic shambles of corporate servants making money bending over for corporations. It's a fucking organised racket and deserves to be RICOd and the fucking lot of them sent off to a Federal penitentiary.

I'm not even scratching the surface here. Maybe more time next week mate.

Migration and democracy... LOL if the problem is hard and complicated blame the migrant, and as for democracy, what is that? What is your interpretation?

If job security is your concern, start smashing up computers and other technologies; as they are three and a half times more likely to cost the average person their job, than a migrant.

Well said Britkid

[Dia bando]

Try telling that to some of my friends and family that lost there jobs to migrant workers, go to our
local industrial estate and the majority of workers are migrant.

True it is small comfort if you are that 20% that lose out (as opposed to the 70% who lose their jobs to technology)

Why did they lose their jobs? Was it a cost thing? If it was, it will be EU who make it a more 'equal playing field' long term, not the Eton elite who run the UK...

Yes a cost thing getting rid of British workers this week,! and replacing them with migrant workers on minimum wage the next, a worrying fact if we leave the EU the Tory's would love it they don't like the human right act the EU implement, with out it the Tory's would make it easier to sack and get rid of employees, which they have stated they would love to do.!
People beware just think long and hard you may think the EU does nothing,! but with out them you may just not have a job.

[Dark Lord Al]

Try telling that to some of my friends and family that lost there jobs to migrant workers, go to our
local industrial estate and the majority of workers are migrant.

True it is small comfort if you are that 20% that lose out (as opposed to the 70% who lose their jobs to technology)

Why did they lose their jobs? Was it a cost thing? If it was, it will be EU who make it a more 'equal playing field' long term, not the Eton elite who run the UK...

Yes a cost thing getting rid of British workers this week,! and replacing them with migrant workers on minimum wage the next, a worrying fact if we leave the EU the Tory's would love it they don't like the human right act the EU implement, with out it the Tory's would make it easier to sack and get rid of employees, which they have stated they would love to do.!
People beware just think long and hard you may think the EU does nothing,! but with out them you may just not have a job.

The human rights act I nothing more than a abused tool used by corrupt inept lawyers to keep criminals and migrants in the country.
Get out of Europe and lets sort out our own mess.
If you don't like the tories ( of which not many are fans ) vote them out in the next election.

[Master]

Human Rights Act is not relevant for the Tories. Cameron wants to be in the EU with the act.

My issue is the wasted money in another layer of bureaucracy that is the European Parliament.

[Dia bando]

Wales has had EU grants which has really helped in poor areas same goes for England and Scotland, if
we are out of the EU were does the investment come from TELL ME PLEASE.?
Remember if you put in you get out lets remember that I can't see were investment will come from only
the EU.

[Master]

Wales has had EU grants which has really helped in poor areas same goes for England and Scotland, if
we are out of the EU were does the investment come from TELL ME PLEASE.?
Remember if you put in you get out lets remember that I can't see were investment will come from only
the EU.

Do not look to EU for investment that is for your parliament to do it.

[Dia bando]

Wales has had EU grants which has really helped in poor areas same goes for England and Scotland, if
we are out of the EU were does the investment come from TELL ME PLEASE.?
Remember if you put in you get out lets remember that I can't see were investment will come from only
the EU.

Do not look to EU for investment that is for your parliament to do it.

Who do you think will invest THE BANKS.

[Kirkland Laing]

Before every major treaty over the years when they've integrated further they've issued a plan about ten years before the treaty. They've issued a new plan called the Five Presidents Report. It basically goes all the way. Full banking and fiscal union and common institutions like a euro army. The banking and fiscal union means a euro trasury that taxes and spends for the whole of europe and the banking union means the euro central bank issues bonds and all countries share each others' debt. So Greece and Italy's debt is all pooled together with ours and Germany's debt and we're all responsible for it and any future banks going bust in europe.

So if you're voting yes that's what they're aiming for eventually. If they don't get it it's only because the common currency is falling apart.

Is that a bad thing though? I think the way forward is greater European unity. It is a way of improving the rights of the working class whilst competing on the world stage. It is far from perfect, but short of revolution and the end Capitalism, to me it is the best way to go.

They're improving the rights of the working class by the euro central bank enforcing policies which slash wages and benefits in the direction of Asian levels and will continue to do so until they get there. They're improving the rights of working class people by allowing uncontrolled immigration from the third world which increases competition for jobs, slashes the pay rates of those europeans who do manage to hold onto their jobs and puts massive pressure on housing costs and school places/access to healthcare etc. While they're letting the immigrants in they're slashing funding for schools, hospitals, social housing etc. All of these things are easier to do with a massive bureaucracy that runs everything and takes away the sovereignty of individual countries to change or stop these things. They also can sign huge trade agreements on behalf of everybody which put european workers in direct competition with Asian workers.

The whole fucking thing is run by big business. You can't rent any office space for several miles near Brussels centre or Strasbourg centre because it's all full of lobbyists buying off EU politicians.

The EU is an absolute undemocratic shambles of corporate servants making money bending over for corporations. It's a fucking organised racket and deserves to be RICOd and the fucking lot of them sent off to a Federal penitentiary.

I'm not even scratching the surface here. Maybe more time next week mate.

Migration and democracy... LOL if the problem is hard and complicated blame the migrant, and as for democracy, what is that? What is your interpretation?

If job security is your concern, start smashing up computers and other technologies; as they are three and a half times more likely to cost the average person their job, than a migrant.

What's your interpretation? A situation where polls show immigration is by far the biggest concern of the British population but all the parties have a lockstep refusal to have a policy that the majority of British people want?

You'd rather be run by a bunch of anti-democratic petty criminals who refuse to accept the democratic wishes of various european countries, have ignored the results of anti-EU votes in Denmark, France, Greece, Ireland and other countries and pressed on with their agenda regardless.

Regardless of how technology affects future employment the main thing affecting it now is supply and demand. Even those not affected by losing their job or being unable to get a new one see their wages cut due to the massive oversupply on the market.

Are you a graduate? You got a graduate-level job and have moved up the employment ladder from that point? Working in a major city?

[Kirkland Laing]

Wales has had EU grants which has really helped in poor areas same goes for England and Scotland, if
we are out of the EU were does the investment come from TELL ME PLEASE.?
Remember if you put in you get out lets remember that I can't see were investment will come from only
the EU.

Britain is a massive net contributor to the EU. All those EU grants you get in Wales are British money. However much more British money goes on EU grants for countries like Romania and Hungary. If we weren't in we'd have even more money to give out in grants to actual British people.

[Britkid]

What's your interpretation? A situation where polls show immigration is by far the biggest concern of the British population but all the parties have a lockstep refusal to have a policy that the majority of British people want?

You'd rather be run by a bunch of anti-democratic petty criminals who refuse to accept the democratic wishes of various european countries, have ignored the results of anti-EU votes in Denmark, France, Greece, Ireland and other countries and pressed on with their agenda regardless.

Regardless of how technology affects future employment the main thing affecting it now is supply and demand. Even those not affected by losing their job or being unable to get a new one see their wages cut due to the massive oversupply on the market.

Are you a graduate? You got a graduate-level job and have moved up the employment ladder from that point? Working in a major city?

What polls show migration as the number one concern? I have not seen a 'mainstream' one.

The majority having an opinion does not mean it should always be acted on if we want to live in 'civilization'.

You keep using democracy without putting a value on it, it is an abstract concept, a cliche even without
being quantified. It should be noted European elections are the only elections that the UK uses PR for...

Supply and demand is dictated a lot more by technological advances than population. Is using fear of strangers the main reason people want to leave?! That to me seems a very weak and flawed argument...

[walrus]

What's your interpretation? A situation where polls show immigration is by far the biggest concern of the British population but all the parties have a lockstep refusal to have a policy that the majority of British people want?

You'd rather be run by a bunch of anti-democratic petty criminals who refuse to accept the democratic wishes of various european countries, have ignored the results of anti-EU votes in Denmark, France, Greece, Ireland and other countries and pressed on with their agenda regardless.

Regardless of how technology affects future employment the main thing affecting it now is supply and demand. Even those not affected by losing their job or being unable to get a new one see their wages cut due to the massive oversupply on the market.

Are you a graduate? You got a graduate-level job and have moved up the employment ladder from that point? Working in a major city?

What polls show migration as the number one concern? I have not seen a 'mainstream' one.

The majority having an opinion does not mean it should always be acted on if we want to live in 'civilization'.

You keep using democracy without putting a value on it, it is an abstract concept, a cliche even without
being quantified. It should be noted European elections are the only elections that the UK uses PR for...

Supply and demand is dictated a lot more by technological advances than population. Is using fear of strangers the main reason people want to leave?! That to me seems a very weak and flawed argument...

Well said britkid.

[Kirkland Laing]

What's your interpretation? A situation where polls show immigration is by far the biggest concern of the British population but all the parties have a lockstep refusal to have a policy that the majority of British people want?

You'd rather be run by a bunch of anti-democratic petty criminals who refuse to accept the democratic wishes of various european countries, have ignored the results of anti-EU votes in Denmark, France, Greece, Ireland and other countries and pressed on with their agenda regardless.

Regardless of how technology affects future employment the main thing affecting it now is supply and demand. Even those not affected by losing their job or being unable to get a new one see their wages cut due to the massive oversupply on the market.

Are you a graduate? You got a graduate-level job and have moved up the employment ladder from that point? Working in a major city?

What polls show migration as the number one concern? I have not seen a 'mainstream' one.

The majority having an opinion does not mean it should always be acted on if we want to live in 'civilization'.

You keep using democracy without putting a value on it, it is an abstract concept, a cliche even without
being quantified. It should be noted European elections are the only elections that the UK uses PR for...

Supply and demand is dictated a lot more by technological advances than population. Is using fear of strangers the main reason people want to leave?! That to me seems a very weak and flawed argument...

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...ues-Index.aspx

Race and immigration the most important issue, say voters

Immigration beats economy as number one worry for UK voters: Pollsters say Britain is more concerned about migrants than money for the first time since 2010 | Daily Mail Online


I see. If the majority don't want it we shouldn't do it because it makes you uncomfortable. Letting a bunch of medieval nuts and sex abusers into the country civilises us.

Don't make up nonsense about what influences employment/unemployment levels. I've forgotten more about economics and finance than you'll ever know, it's not going to work. Letting hundreds of thousands of desperate jobless people every year into an existing job market isn't going to affect unemployment or wage rates? That's a rhetorical question.

And answer my questions.

[Britkid]

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...ues-Index.aspx

Race and immigration the most important issue, say voters

Immigration beats economy as number one worry for UK voters: Pollsters say Britain is more concerned about migrants than money for the first time since 2010 | Daily Mail Online

I see two of them links are from 2014; the other six months old has the breakdown of those who were polled, which is somewhat cliche and rather exposes the ignorance on the subject.

I see. If the majority don't want it we shouldn't do it because it makes you uncomfortable. Letting a bunch of medieval nuts and sex abusers into the country civilises us.

Being scared and unsettled by strangers seems more medieval to me. And yes it is uncomfortable that sometimes ignorance rules over logic.

Don't make up nonsense about what influences employment/unemployment levels. I've forgotten more about economics and finance than you'll ever know, it's not going to work. Letting hundreds of thousands of desperate jobless people every year into an existing job market isn't going to affect unemployment or wage rates? That's a rhetorical question.

And answer my questions.

Half of all British jobs could be replaced by robots, warns Bank of England’s chief economist - Telegraph

[Kirkland Laing]

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...ues-Index.aspx

Race and immigration the most important issue, say voters

Immigration beats economy as number one worry for UK voters: Pollsters say Britain is more concerned about migrants than money for the first time since 2010 | Daily Mail Online

I see two of them links are from 2014; the other six months old has the breakdown of those who were polled, which is somewhat cliche and rather exposes the ignorance on the subject.

I see. If the majority don't want it we shouldn't do it because it makes you uncomfortable. Letting a bunch of medieval nuts and sex abusers into the country civilises us.

Being scared and unsettled by strangers seems more medieval to me. And yes it is uncomfortable that sometimes ignorance rules over logic.

Don't make up nonsense about what influences employment/unemployment levels. I've forgotten more about economics and finance than you'll ever know, it's not going to work. Letting hundreds of thousands of desperate jobless people every year into an existing job market isn't going to affect unemployment or wage rates? That's a rhetorical question.

And answer my questions.

Half of all British jobs could be replaced by robots, warns Bank of England’s chief economist - Telegraph

Look, you wanted to see polls that showed immigration is the top issue with British voters. I showed you the polls. It's not that people are scared and unsettled by foreigners, they're facing competition for jobs, school places and healthcare resources amongst other things. That's what they don't like about uncontrolled immigration. They're not just a bunch of racists and bigots. They on the whole like immigrants but not the effects of immigration on their lives.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/03/02...t-immigration/



And I'm not talking about a potential future where robots take jobs. I'm talking about the present day, what is affecting people right now.

You won't answer my questions because you know how the argument is going to go. I'm going to guess you live in London or a large city and are employed at graduate/professional level and are on your way up whatever career ladder you have. People like you aren't affected by immigration. There's full employment at graduate/professional level for people on the ladder. There are large numbers of jobs for people like you.

So I've got a solution so that you can gain an appreciation of what it's like for all thos eprovincial bigots and racists who are scared and unsettled by foreigners. India produces ten million graduates a year. A lot of them are working for less than 10k a year. Let's help those foreigners out and help increase free market competition and give visas to a couple of million of highly qualified highly motivated Indian IT people, doctors, engineers, scientists, executives and so on.

You'd immediately be terrified to be the last one to leave for work every day. You'd never get a pay rise again. You'd come into work one day and find your entire team has been sacked and replaced by people working for half your money. You or people you know would be losing your homes, having them repossessed, getting your wages cut and discovering what it's like to have to take out a 1509%APR loan to pay your bills every now and then.

Within a couple of months of the Indians coming in you'd be hearing five million conversations all over London starting with "you know I'm not racist........"

[Kirkland Laing]

Never mind pro-EU people, the good news is you're going to win the referendum. The bad news is the EU is collapsing anyway. First Schengen, then the euro. Maybe even some fuckers go to jail if we're lucky. More later.