The Truth about the "greatest" Muhammad Ali..

[moonlight19]

Like any other historical figure - the "facts" depend entirely on the author. It's quite convenient to forget that the author of the declaration of independance owned slaves (convenient and more than a bit ironic).

It is funny how Ali is universally adored now. He was one of the most devisive sports figures in American History. No doubt race was the major factor in many of the passionate feelings towards him (from both sides). Ali was the first athlete (black or white) to boast, brag, taunt and disrespect his opponents to no end. I'm sure some people loved it and some hated it but it was revolutionary.

Ali was also politically active - something the athlete of today seems to have purposely avoided (maybe out of fear of losing endorsement $$$). Agree with his point of view or not, he had the guts to do it when almost all others did not.

Personally, I feel the S*** talking that began with Ali is distasteful. The "look at me" attitude is offensive and ruins today's sports but that's just my opinion.

I prefer the Arthur Ashe style. Classy, intelligent and thoughtful while still being potent. The bragging of Ali and the athletes of today is so obviously a shield for some real deep-seeded insecurity and sense of inferiority which were so odd for men of such talent (both in and out of the ring). I'm sure I'm in the minority with this opinion but whatever.

[sweet science]

No one should have their history distorted by time, popularity or a sense of political correctness.
Stay factual, thats all.
Keep the myths to Elvis, Bigfoot and The Loch Ness Monster

Was Ali a great boxer? Of Course.


The greatest ever? All time? If you want to think that, like many others thats OK by me.

But then Kenny Norton must be a Legend too right? he Beat a Prime Ali and In the rematch lost a close Split decision with one judge having him winning the fight. Don't forget that Norton was the #1 contender to Fight Leon Spinks, WBC stripped Leon of the title cuz he chose to fight Ali instead. "Ducking" Norton and denying him the title shot against a fighter with 7 fights!!! (6-1) Thats where Ali got the 3 time champion bit.

Frazier went 44 rounds with Ali and won the first fight. Mythical proportions for "Smokin Joe?" ..where are they?

Leon Spinks? Ali was only 36. Same age as when Holmes fought Micheal! Leon only had 7 pro fights! 6 wins and a loss!!! weighed 197!
Such a big deal? HE LOST THE FIRST FIGHT TO A GUY WITH 6 WINS!
Leon finished up 26-17-3!
the rematch he won?? against a guy with 7 fights? BIG DEAL!
Is this what Legendary fighters are made from?
When Larry Holmes lost to Micheal ,Larry was 48-0! and Micheal had 27 wins with no losses!!

Ali was only 38/39 when he lost to Holmes and Berbick
Larry Holmes fought friggin' Tyson when Larry was age 35, Tyson was 32 and 0 at the time! then Larry had 24 fights after that!!!
Including Evander,Oliver McCall,Ribalto,Ray Mercer!
Larry fought Mercer when Larry was 39 in 1992 dude!!! Mercer is getting ready to fight RAhman NOW!
Holmes fought most every year from age 35 to age 52 went 21-3 all after age 38! When people were making excuses for the "GREATEST" because he was SOOO old

Is Ali waaayyy better than all these guys? And so many other that could be mentioned in the HW division alone.. What About JC Chavez? I could go on for a long time and name maybe, I dunno 50 fighters, who could be argued to be better,as good, or at least in the same league as ALI. If you don't think so thats OK....IS ALI .WAAAYYYY BETTTEERRR?? A different level of greatness?? I just don't think so
"the greatness that was Ali" and comments and opinions so often expressed about the man are just too over the top for me.
I don't AT ALL dislike the guy, I like him. His style wasn't my favorite but I always admired his GUTS.

So now I suppose since I DARED even suggest that there might be other fighters out there who I should have the audacity to suggest belong in the same conversation with "The GREATNESS" I'll get the sh1t, sad clicked out of me again?? Go Ahead....fill your boots.

Oh Ya,Just for those who don't know the 4 original "items" I chose to comment on are all direct quotes taken from posts ON THIS FORUM.

one of the things that is special to me about ali is that he WAS vulnerable in the ring. in terms of sheer strength he was weaker than liston, frazier, foreman, and norton, and a few others. yet he left his heart in the ring against all of them, and, what is more, when he won against these stronger men he did so with smarts, speed, and skill. you see, ali's relative vulnerabilities in the ring are part of his greatness.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

No one should have their history distorted by time, popularity or a sense of political correctness.
Stay factual, thats all.
Keep the myths to Elvis, Bigfoot and The Loch Ness Monster

Was Ali a great boxer? Of Course.


The greatest ever? All time? If you want to think that, like many others thats OK by me.

But then Kenny Norton must be a Legend too right? he Beat a Prime Ali and In the rematch lost a close Split decision with one judge having him winning the fight. Don't forget that Norton was the #1 contender to Fight Leon Spinks, WBC stripped Leon of the title cuz he chose to fight Ali instead. "Ducking" Norton and denying him the title shot against a fighter with 7 fights!!! (6-1) Thats where Ali got the 3 time champion bit.

Frazier went 44 rounds with Ali and won the first fight. Mythical proportions for "Smokin Joe?" ..where are they?

Leon Spinks? Ali was only 36. Same age as when Holmes fought Micheal! Leon only had 7 pro fights! 6 wins and a loss!!! weighed 197!
Such a big deal? HE LOST THE FIRST FIGHT TO A GUY WITH 6 WINS!
Leon finished up 26-17-3!
the rematch he won?? against a guy with 7 fights? BIG DEAL!
Is this what Legendary fighters are made from?
When Larry Holmes lost to Micheal ,Larry was 48-0! and Micheal had 27 wins with no losses!!

Ali was only 38/39 when he lost to Holmes and Berbick
Larry Holmes fought friggin' Tyson when Larry was age 35, Tyson was 32 and 0 at the time! then Larry had 24 fights after that!!!
Including Evander,Oliver McCall,Ribalto,Ray Mercer!
Larry fought Mercer when Larry was 39 in 1992 dude!!! Mercer is getting ready to fight RAhman NOW!
Holmes fought most every year from age 35 to age 52 went 21-3 all after age 38! When people were making excuses for the "GREATEST" because he was SOOO old

Is Ali waaayyy better than all these guys? And so many other that could be mentioned in the HW division alone.. What About JC Chavez? I could go on for a long time and name maybe, I dunno 50 fighters, who could be argued to be better,as good, or at least in the same league as ALI. If you don't think so thats OK....IS ALI .WAAAYYYY BETTTEERRR?? A different level of greatness?? I just don't think so
"the greatness that was Ali" and comments and opinions so often expressed about the man are just too over the top for me.
I don't AT ALL dislike the guy, I like him. His style wasn't my favorite but I always admired his GUTS.

So now I suppose since I DARED even suggest that there might be other fighters out there who I should have the audacity to suggest belong in the same conversation with "The GREATNESS" I'll get the sh1t, sad clicked out of me again?? Go Ahead....fill your boots.

Oh Ya,Just for those who don't know the 4 original "items" I chose to comment on are all direct quotes taken from posts ON THIS FORUM.

So why didn't you just start a thread titled "Why i think Larry Holmes is Better than Ali"
That would of been far more appropriate... And relevant

[landmine950]

No one should have their history distorted by time, popularity or a sense of political correctness.
Stay factual, thats all.
Keep the myths to Elvis, Bigfoot and The Loch Ness Monster

Was Ali a great boxer? Of Course.


The greatest ever? All time? If you want to think that, like many others thats OK by me.

But then Kenny Norton must be a Legend too right? he Beat a Prime Ali and In the rematch lost a close Split decision with one judge having him winning the fight. Don't forget that Norton was the #1 contender to Fight Leon Spinks, WBC stripped Leon of the title cuz he chose to fight Ali instead. "Ducking" Norton and denying him the title shot against a fighter with 7 fights!!! (6-1) Thats where Ali got the 3 time champion bit.

Frazier went 44 rounds with Ali and won the first fight. Mythical proportions for "Smokin Joe?" ..where are they?

Leon Spinks? Ali was only 36. Same age as when Holmes fought Micheal! Leon only had 7 pro fights! 6 wins and a loss!!! weighed 197!
Such a big deal? HE LOST THE FIRST FIGHT TO A GUY WITH 6 WINS!
Leon finished up 26-17-3!
the rematch he won?? against a guy with 7 fights? BIG DEAL!
Is this what Legendary fighters are made from?
When Larry Holmes lost to Micheal ,Larry was 48-0! and Micheal had 27 wins with no losses!!

Ali was only 38/39 when he lost to Holmes and Berbick
Larry Holmes fought friggin' Tyson when Larry was age 35, Tyson was 32 and 0 at the time! then Larry had 24 fights after that!!!
Including Evander,Oliver McCall,Ribalto,Ray Mercer!
Larry fought Mercer when Larry was 39 in 1992 dude!!! Mercer is getting ready to fight RAhman NOW!
Holmes fought most every year from age 35 to age 52 went 21-3 all after age 38! When people were making excuses for the "GREATEST" because he was SOOO old

Is Ali waaayyy better than all these guys? And so many other that could be mentioned in the HW division alone.. What About JC Chavez? I could go on for a long time and name maybe, I dunno 50 fighters, who could be argued to be better,as good, or at least in the same league as ALI. If you don't think so thats OK....IS ALI .WAAAYYYY BETTTEERRR?? A different level of greatness?? I just don't think so
"the greatness that was Ali" and comments and opinions so often expressed about the man are just too over the top for me.
I don't AT ALL dislike the guy, I like him. His style wasn't my favorite but I always admired his GUTS.

So now I suppose since I DARED even suggest that there might be other fighters out there who I should have the audacity to suggest belong in the same conversation with "The GREATNESS" I'll get the sh1t, sad clicked out of me again?? Go Ahead....fill your boots.

Oh Ya,Just for those who don't know the 4 original "items" I chose to comment on are all direct quotes taken from posts ON THIS FORUM.

So why didn't you just start a thread titled "Why i think Larry Holmes is Better than Ali"
That would of been far more appropriate... And relevant

Well that would be a lame post wouldn't it....Its too obvious...not controversial at all..
sort of like comparing Valuev @ 46-0 ..to...to......well .....to anybody.

[ICEMAN JDS]

You did all that research, you showed all those statistics. But thats just numbers. Ali's greatness isnt reflected in numbers, my man. And he lost to Norton in his prime? Check again, my man. His prime? THAT was Ali's prime Ali beat Frazier (twice) and FOREMAN well after his prime was gone.

[jbirdy]

apparently we missed ali's prime or his best years because of the time of his liscence being revoced for refusing to go to vietnam.

[landmine950]

Sorry jbird and Iceman..
I don't follow what you are tying to say.
that Ali lost his prime during the time he was out of boxing?
1967 -1970?
He was born in 42 so he was 25-28 years old then
Not the usual prime for a heavyweight, who usually mature later.
Soon after his return and 2 fights he face Joe frazier in 1971 and lost.
He lost to frazier at age 29
Lost to Norton at age 31
Spinks age 35
Holmes age 38
Berbick age 39

Maybe he hit a few peak primes in between all those losses?
I dunno!?


Someone questioned why Ali was called a racist.

Absolutley opinions, feelings and beliefs in the usa and the world were (and do a degree still are) racist against black people

People were against integration and felt that they should not be forced to integrate. they felt that integration with blacks was wrong. And openly stated that they did not want to live with black people.

Inter racial dating was frowned upon and marraige was discouraged in many bigotted white families. Of course now we see these ideas as they really are, ignorant and biggoted. Was Ali excempt from misguided ideologies of the time?

Here's 2 of his quotes

For example, Ali once stated, in relation to integration:

“ We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man ”
And in relation to inter-racial marriage:

“ No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters."

So in some ways it could be said that Ali was as ignorent and racist as the next guy. A saint? hero? martyr? Civil rights leader? Peace maker? I don't see him that way. but thats just MO
Let's stick to what he accomplished in the ring. And keep the facts straight.
Thats all i was trying to do.

IMO... great fighter, even greater fights. Great fights because he fought guys that were VERY evenly matched with him. Styles make fights and in Ali's case that was very true.

[ICEMAN JDS]

Listen...taking three years away in the middle of your prime does something to an ATHLETE. We arent talking about a banker here. A prime for one man is not the same for another. Ali's prime was earlier. On his best day he didnt lose

[zhubin]

Why anyone is trying to argue or speak logic with landmine is beyond me. When an athlete has had as much impact as Ali has had...he will have his detractors.

[The Promoter]

1) " Ali was stripped of from his title due to racism"

News to me and anyone else who followed his career

fact:

Malcolm X instructed his peopleto distance themselves from the brash, Ali until after the Liston fight, just in case he lost

WRONG.. eliga muhammed (spelling) was the guy who told everyone to stay away from the liston fight he even told X to stay away for the reasons you have stated but Malcolm was ringside and the only one there to support the 1/10 underdog.

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar.

seems kinda the smart thing to do if you dont want to get inducted

His poems and rhymes were considered juvenile and simple minded.

WRONG his work today is held in high regards i think he is also responsible for writing the shorted poem ever

3) He is often presented as being one of the kindest,nicest people ever,even taking on "Gandhi" like attributes

as a boxer you kidding me KIND but he was later on in life don all sorts of stuf including flying over to to get the USA soldier being held captive by Sadam

Seeing a shaking and drooling Ali, a once champion boxer and well known personality,reduced to the mental ability of a cooked turnip certainly invokes feelings of sadness and even pity.

i take it this is for effect


to sum up most people who followed Ali know what he was about

Saddo...YOU ARE THE MAN!...Perfectly stated!

Love him or hate him Ali was/is and always be consistant to his beliefs, while he is not as militant as he was when young Ali NEVER had ill will toward anyone who showed him respect...

[C.J.Rock]

The statement Cassius Clay scored too low in his initial tests for induction into the armed forces . Then suddenly he was upgraded to top class to be inducted. How did that suddenly happen Wasn't racially inspired was.it
Whether you agree with Ali's religious beliefs or not you have to respect him for standing up for them. He stayed right here in the US to face whatever punishment he was given. Do you remember a certain William Jefferson Clinton?? He hi tailed it to England to avoid the draft. His punishment?? They made him President of the United States

[Bill Paxtom]

When I look for Great American's.

I skip over a certain person.

To be great, you must have a certain nobility.

[Master]

Why did you open this can of worms we have idiots who do not like Ali.

They reduced the scoring so that more people could be inducted which coincidentally resulted in Ali having to fight in Vietnam.