Ice Cold Changed His Mind Slighty About Ali Was He Overrated ??

[ICB]

Where does everybody get this Lewis was an Athlete from, he wasnt. I know people that have run with him, Hes was a plodder had to be carrying that amount of weight. They went running one day, and a woman pushing a pram passed them.

quality cc in 24 mate made me fall off my chair

[CutMeMick]

The sh*t! I've read in this thread made me

[DaxxKahn]

You only pointed out the obvious....No one ever said he was perfect....

Look at it from the other way around....

The Superfights...When superfights were actually super...The fact he was able to catch the title 3 times.....Survive what at the time seemed to be an unbeatable foreman...destroyed the myth called Sonny Liston before hitting his peak....Remember in his day even the fringe contenders wee good...there really were not to many gimme fighters...Guys then were made of a different material then the poor excuse of heavyweights in the modern era....

He reinvented himself when need be...He could dance,,he could punch when needed,,,he was the master at trash talk and mind games,,,when he got into the head of an opponent he didn't do it by bringing a chicken to a press confrence like PBF..Ali went to your freakin house with a bus load of people...

Yes you do have points ICB but you are also young....his greatness was more then just what he did in the ring it wwas the whole picture.....

You sepak about the split glove incident but yet fail to realize the genius behind it...

You also forget this was a man who fought almost an entire fight with a broken jaw against Ken Norton....

Being great has more to it then just going in the ring and having a perfect fight every time...his greatness came from the whole picture.....including being exiled during his best years then coming back to rule the greatest era of heavyweights ever for the majority of it's duration.....

[supergenius]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

Foreman wasnt landing because Ali wasnt letting him
Go ask Frazier how easy that is to pull off,hell ask Moorer.
Ali was able to take it to a decision with Norton with a broken jaw
In the 60's he was untouchable,to the point he goofed off with fighters,not bum's,good fighters,and he'd just play with them
Foley was a number one contender,and he toyed with him,until he decided to knock him out.
Your judging him on a decade after he won the title in the first place
And he still was able to take it and keep it for almost another one
There was only one

Very true. very difficult to assess fairly if the fights happened years ago. But this is boxing talk. Ice Cold wants to talk his mind.Just be careful with the scrutiny else somebody might believe.

[El Gamo]

You only pointed out the obvious....No one ever said he was perfect....

Look at it from the other way around....

The Superfights...When superfights were actually super...The fact he was able to catch the title 3 times.....Survive what at the time seemed to be an unbeatable foreman...destroyed the myth called Sonny Liston before hitting his peak....Remember in his day even the fringe contenders wee good...there really were not to many gimme fighters...Guys then were made of a different material then the poor excuse of heavyweights in the modern era....

He reinvented himself when need be...He could dance,,he could punch when needed,,,he was the master at trash talk and mind games,,,when he got into the head of an opponent he didn't do it by bringing a chicken to a press confrence like PBF..Ali went to your freakin house with a bus load of people...

Yes you do have points ICB but you are also young....his greatness was more then just what he did in the ring it wwas the whole picture.....

You sepak about the split glove incident but yet fail to realize the genius behind it...

You also forget this was a man who fought almost an entire fight with a broken jaw against Ken Norton....

Being great has more to it then just going in the ring and having a perfect fight every time...his greatness came from the whole picture.....including being exiled during his best years then coming back to rule the greatest era of heavyweights ever for the majority of it's duration.....

An awesome awesome post! CC in 24. Brilliant.

[Majesty]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

All those "gift decisions" you mentioned was either when he was just beginning, or when he was past his prime

The Norton, Young, Frazier, fights were a past his prime Ali, who had years taken out of his prime boxing career because of getting his license revoked.

Its a credence to Ali's legacy that some of his greatest victories AFTER his prime, against fighters in theirs

Another thing thise Doug Jones henry cooper fights where an Ali before his prime.

Mention Doug Jones dropping him early in his career and cooper doing the same

But you fail to mention how a greater fighter in Sonny Liston couldn't touch Ali at his peak, nor do you mention that Ali fought Cooper again in a rematch and was never caught.

And you say that Frazier beat the stuffing out of Ali the first time(stretching your imagination in my opinion) But mention that Ali came back in the rematch at the Garden and beat Joe easily.

Thats probably the reason you'd get sadclicks because you only mention the points of the story to your point as if nothing happened after that.

You won't get a sadclick from me. But you could have made a better arguement then that

[Punisher136]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

All those "gift decisions" you mentioned was either when he was just beginning, or when he was past his prime

The Norton, Young, Frazier, fights were a past his prime Ali, who had years taken out of his prime boxing career because of getting his license revoked.

Its a credence to Ali's legacy that some of his greatest victories AFTER his prime, against fighters in theirs

Another thing thise Doug Jones henry cooper fights where an Ali before his prime.

Mention Doug Jones dropping him early in his career and cooper doing the same

But you fail to mention how a greater fighter in Sonny Liston couldn't touch Ali at his peak, nor do you mention that Ali fought Cooper again in a rematch and was never caught.

And you say that Frazier beat the stuffing out of Ali the first time(stretching your imagination in my opinion) But mention that Ali came back in the rematch at the Garden and beat Joe easily.

Thats probably the reason you'd get sadclicks because you only mention the points of the story to your point as if nothing happened after that.

You won't get a sadclick from me. But you could have made a better arguement then that

In my mind ali is one of the top three heavys of all time. Not only did he avenge his loss to frazier, in their thrid meeting ali actually cut frazier something that has never been done prior to that fight (yes frazier bruized easily in every fight he was in but he was never actually cut open in any of them). Is he overrated? depends on somebodys prospective. Can you overrate one of the best athletes a sport has never seen before or since?

Before the 80's (which by all means he should've been retired by then) he avenged every single loss he received. He did receive losses he wasn't invincible, i don't think anyone is saying that. But when he hit his prime it would've taken a great fighter to put on one hell of a showing to beat him. How many athletes in the history of sports can still compete and even dominate when they are past their prime. When he lost his natural ability, he evolved his fighting style. When he couldn't dance around people anymore he stood right in front of them and still beat them. Naturally there's gonna be people who take things alittle to far when describing someones accomplishments, but you have to realize no matter how great someone is there will always be something to knock them about. No boxer was or ever will be perfect*










*Except Rocky Marciano :P

[JT Rock]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

All those "gift decisions" you mentioned was either when he was just beginning, or when he was past his prime

The Norton, Young, Frazier, fights were a past his prime Ali, who had years taken out of his prime boxing career because of getting his license revoked.

Its a credence to Ali's legacy that some of his greatest victories AFTER his prime, against fighters in theirs

Another thing thise Doug Jones henry cooper fights where an Ali before his prime.

Mention Doug Jones dropping him early in his career and cooper doing the same

But you fail to mention how a greater fighter in Sonny Liston couldn't touch Ali at his peak, nor do you mention that Ali fought Cooper again in a rematch and was never caught.

And you say that Frazier beat the stuffing out of Ali the first time(stretching your imagination in my opinion) But mention that Ali came back in the rematch at the Garden and beat Joe easily.

Thats probably the reason you'd get sadclicks because you only mention the points of the story to your point as if nothing happened after that.

You won't get a sadclick from me. But you could have made a better arguement then that

In my mind ali is one of the top three heavys of all time. Not only did he avenge his loss to frazier, in their thrid meeting ali actually cut frazier something that has never been done prior to that fight (yes frazier bruized easily in every fight he was in but he was never actually cut open in any of them). Is he overrated? depends on somebodys prospective. Can you overrate one of the best athletes a sport has never seen before or since?

Before the 80's (which by all means he should've been retired by then) he avenged every single loss he received. He did receive losses he wasn't invincible, i don't think anyone is saying that. But when he hit his prime it would've taken a great fighter to put on one hell of a showing to beat him. How many athletes in the history of sports can still compete and even dominate when they are past their prime. When he lost his natural ability, he evolved his fighting style. When he couldn't dance around people anymore he stood right in front of them and still beat them. Naturally there's gonna be people who take things alittle to far when describing someones accomplishments, but you have to realize no matter how great someone is there will always be something to knock them about. No boxer was or ever will be perfect*










*Except Rocky Marciano :P

Ali had great accompolishments throughout his career.. I will say to a degree everyone speaks as Ali was superman and any hypothetical thread pitting him against anyother fighter in History 99% of the time people automatically pick Ali... He was a winner and thats all that counts, he gutted out alot of wins in his career as well as toyed, and demoralized people too... I believe there are a few fighters that would have beat Ali or at least would have had even odds going into the fight

Louis
Tyson
Holmes
Lewis
Holyfield

I take what your saying Ice with a grain of salt and I agree with you on some levels but Ali was one of the greatest of all time just not the mythological being of folklore that he is perceived as by some

[Punisher136]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

All those "gift decisions" you mentioned was either when he was just beginning, or when he was past his prime

The Norton, Young, Frazier, fights were a past his prime Ali, who had years taken out of his prime boxing career because of getting his license revoked.

Its a credence to Ali's legacy that some of his greatest victories AFTER his prime, against fighters in theirs

Another thing thise Doug Jones henry cooper fights where an Ali before his prime.

Mention Doug Jones dropping him early in his career and cooper doing the same

But you fail to mention how a greater fighter in Sonny Liston couldn't touch Ali at his peak, nor do you mention that Ali fought Cooper again in a rematch and was never caught.

And you say that Frazier beat the stuffing out of Ali the first time(stretching your imagination in my opinion) But mention that Ali came back in the rematch at the Garden and beat Joe easily.

Thats probably the reason you'd get sadclicks because you only mention the points of the story to your point as if nothing happened after that.

You won't get a sadclick from me. But you could have made a better arguement then that

In my mind ali is one of the top three heavys of all time. Not only did he avenge his loss to frazier, in their thrid meeting ali actually cut frazier something that has never been done prior to that fight (yes frazier bruized easily in every fight he was in but he was never actually cut open in any of them). Is he overrated? depends on somebodys prospective. Can you overrate one of the best athletes a sport has never seen before or since?

Before the 80's (which by all means he should've been retired by then) he avenged every single loss he received. He did receive losses he wasn't invincible, i don't think anyone is saying that. But when he hit his prime it would've taken a great fighter to put on one hell of a showing to beat him. How many athletes in the history of sports can still compete and even dominate when they are past their prime. When he lost his natural ability, he evolved his fighting style. When he couldn't dance around people anymore he stood right in front of them and still beat them. Naturally there's gonna be people who take things alittle to far when describing someones accomplishments, but you have to realize no matter how great someone is there will always be something to knock them about. No boxer was or ever will be perfect*










*Except Rocky Marciano :P

Ali had great accompolishments throughout his career.. I will say to a degree everyone speaks as Ali was superman and any hypothetical thread pitting him against anyother fighter in History 99% of the time people automatically pick Ali... He was a winner and thats all that counts, he gutted out alot of wins in his career as well as toyed, and demoralized people too... I believe there are a few fighters that would have beat Ali or at least would have had even odds going into the fight

Louis
Tyson
Holmes
Lewis
Holyfield

I take what your saying Ice with a grain of salt and I agree with you on some levels but Ali was one of the greatest of all time just not the mythological being of folklore that he is perceived as by some

Those would've all been great fights see especially a primed ali against holmes not a dued to retire ali. He might not of beaten them all but one thing for sure is they would've been great fights.

[Trainer Monkey]

You only pointed out the obvious....No one ever said he was perfect....

Look at it from the other way around....

The Superfights...When superfights were actually super...The fact he was able to catch the title 3 times.....Survive what at the time seemed to be an unbeatable foreman...destroyed the myth called Sonny Liston before hitting his peak....Remember in his day even the fringe contenders wee good...there really were not to many gimme fighters...Guys then were made of a different material then the poor excuse of heavyweights in the modern era....

He reinvented himself when need be...He could dance,,he could punch when needed,,,he was the master at trash talk and mind games,,,when he got into the head of an opponent he didn't do it by bringing a chicken to a press confrence like PBF..Ali went to your freakin house with a bus load of people...

Yes you do have points ICB but you are also young....his greatness was more then just what he did in the ring it wwas the whole picture.....

You sepak about the split glove incident but yet fail to realize the genius behind it...

You also forget this was a man who fought almost an entire fight with a broken jaw against Ken Norton....

Being great has more to it then just going in the ring and having a perfect fight every time...his greatness came from the whole picture.....including being exiled during his best years then coming back to rule the greatest era of heavyweights ever for the majority of it's duration.....

Very good post
One of the things people dont remember about Ali is he could be a devestating puncher when he wanted to
Go watch the Foley fight,he toys with him for 6 rounds,decides he's had enough of him,and wipes him out with a single punch
This was a top ranked heavyweight,that Patterson dodged
1 punch

[ICB]

Ummmmmmmm Ice,
While no clicks,are you kidding me?
The first guy to be undisputed Heavyweight champ 3 times,who fought Frazier to the point where there were reports Frazier died,who more or less toyed with dangerous heavyweight Zora Foley,who spent most of his fight with Patterson screaming "Whats My Name?" as he pummeled him,who used your boy Holmes as his sparring partner for the 70's,gold metalist,who let one of the hardest punchers out there in Foreman punch himself out,is overrated?

Yea thanks for sc and yes Ali was great but you guys overrate him imo he wasn't some unbeatable boxer that can't be beat he had been exposed by Young and Norton and Foreman was swinging and swinging hardly landing much clean and he just punched himself out and Ali koed him fair play great win for him i never said it wasn't yes and he used my boy Holmes as sparring partner and Holmes was getting better of him in sparring and imo Holmes would beat Ali.

All those "gift decisions" you mentioned was either when he was just beginning, or when he was past his prime

The Norton, Young, Frazier, fights were a past his prime Ali, who had years taken out of his prime boxing career because of getting his license revoked.

Its a credence to Ali's legacy that some of his greatest victories AFTER his prime, against fighters in theirs

Another thing thise Doug Jones henry cooper fights where an Ali before his prime.

Mention Doug Jones dropping him early in his career and cooper doing the same

But you fail to mention how a greater fighter in Sonny Liston couldn't touch Ali at his peak, nor do you mention that Ali fought Cooper again in a rematch and was never caught.

And you say that Frazier beat the stuffing out of Ali the first time(stretching your imagination in my opinion) But mention that Ali came back in the rematch at the Garden and beat Joe easily.

Thats probably the reason you'd get sadclicks because you only mention the points of the story to your point as if nothing happened after that.

You won't get a sadclick from me. But you could have made a better argument then that

Yes and you failed to realize the question i was asking with all these gift decision would he still have been greatest if he would of lost Norton 3 and Jimmy Young fight in which i think they did win and alot of people do i would say alot more think they won than think they lost.

[BIG H]

What a fantastic thread people

One thing form ICBs post that is interesting, if Ali had've lost 2 of the 3 decisions to Norton, would he have still being seen in the same light?

What I will say is that he DID beat Frazier, Liston and Foreman , 3 fighters that all arguable have a claim to be top 10 HW of all time. I can't thinks of any heavyweight that can say the same ?

[ICB]

What a fantastic thread people

One thing form ICBs post that is interesting, if Ali had've lost 2 of the 3 decisions to Norton, would he have still being seen in the same light?

What I will say is that he DID beat Frazier, Liston and Foreman , 3 fighters that all arguable have a claim to be top 10 HW of all time. I can't thinks of any heavyweight that can say the same ?

You nailed it right on the head mate thats exactly what im saying would he have still been greatest if he would of lost decision's against Norton and Young im not questioning who he fought the man fought great opp but im saying what would people think now if he would of lost those decisions ??

[Punisher136]

What a fantastic thread people

One thing form ICBs post that is interesting, if Ali had've lost 2 of the 3 decisions to Norton, would he have still being seen in the same light?

What I will say is that he DID beat Frazier, Liston and Foreman , 3 fighters that all arguable have a claim to be top 10 HW of all time. I can't thinks of any heavyweight that can say the same ?

You nailed it right on the head mate thats exactly what im saying would he have still been greatest if he would of lost decision's against Norton and Young im not questioning who he fought the man fought great opp but im saying what would people think now if he would of lost those decisions ??

If norton swept ali three straight times it would be the same thing as taylor/hopkins. Hopkins is still seen as a great and it just seems that taylor has his number, very shady, but his number none the less. And im not buying the idea that two sober people with two working eyes each would've given that fight to young and of been able to justify it.

[DarkDestroyer]

You guys crack me up.
Off course Ali was human but he was an exceptional athlete with great moral standards. This seems to be lacking in modern day fighters
He was open for the left hook though(see Cooper, Frazier))
He would handle Holyfield with ease, same with Lewis and Tyson
A prime vs prime against Holmes would be very competitive indeed

Let's be candid here.
Off course you can debate about individual matchups but be that as it may i still think he will never be surpassed as The G.O.A.T.