Official : IceColcBoxing Vs BruceLee for Welterweight MMWC

[brucelee]

Ok guys what round are we into now?

Is it almost over can I give my scorecard in yet?

Please do mate we have both made 4 posts each we both have 8 left but you can give your scorecard.

By the way, my first post won't count as I was sort of starting a topic there.

Edit: I was not making a rebuttal there. I simply stated some facts to start the debate.

[brucelee]

it's 2:00 AM here. Guys, am waiting. hehehe. Hope all judges will be fair.

I know they are fair.

[El Gamo]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

[brucelee]

thanks El Gamo.

[El Gamo]

thanks El Gamo.

You're welcome. And sorry for interfering,I thought the fight was over! I'm press row

[brucelee]

it's already over. ICB and I have agreed to call it over. Did we ICB?

[brucelee]

sorry, ICB. I really need to sleep now. Judges,please post the result of the contest and I will read them later. It's 2 am here and I'm already very very sleepy.

May the best man win ICB.

[ICB]

Mayweather fought legit Welterweight champion of the world Baldomir you can't expect him to do legendary things at Welterweight with only 3 fights at Welterweight but he has still fought quality opposition at Welterweight.


Whoever said Mayweather was as great as Robinson ?? your turning this debate into about Robinson vs Mayweather this debate is about Welterweight eras you keep going off topic Mayweather has only had 38 fights and has won 5 World titles in 5 different weight divisions thats something not even Robinson done and thats damn impressive in only 38 pro fights all i was saying is that Robinson's Welterweight era is not as strong as Welterweight era now and i have proven it isn't thats what im supposed to be debating about and so far i have proven it.

First and foremost, you're saying now that these alphabet titles matters? yeah 5 different weight divisions? Against a SLUGGISH Baldomir after he ducked Margarito? MAybe you haven't read my last comment regarding MAyweather ducking MArgarito. Let me repeat my story ( I added these lines after I posted my earlier rebuttal).

By the way, mayweather did duck Margarito. He rejected an $8Million dollar offer to fight margarito in 2006 and decided to go up to fight De LA hoya but ODLH postponed the fight to 2007 so he decided to fight Cory Spinks but it did not push through coz of Spinks mandatory defense. So he decided to fight Baldomir coz he was already in the bad light.

yeah, there maybe great fighters in the welterweight division now but does it automatically make the division better than before? I am focusing with Mayweather coz ,for you, he symbolizes the best boxer in this era.

What purpose does it serve to have great boxers when what you consider the best boxer is ducking another boxer? You mean, that will make this era better than before?

So Mayweather fought legit fighters? The question is how did he perform? Ohhh, by outpointing a SLUGGISH Baldomir. have you seen his fight with Judah? I've posted the video. Try to watch it again and boldly say his performance was impressive.

CAn you explain to me why the win of Mayweather over Shamba impressive? Williams had done it in the 4th round. Mayweather in 6th.

Mayweather can't really be expected to do some legendary thing in the welterweight coz he lacks the courage possessed by Robinson.

Well considering Mayweather has only been a Welterweight for not even 2 years that is unfair and has only had 3 fights at Welterweight i think thats totally unfair arguement but he did beat.

So mayweather had 3 fights in the welterweight since 2004 to 2007. How great is that? Boxers during the time of Robinson and Basilio were fighting an average of 9-10 fights a year.

Topic:"The Welterweight division, better now than ever?"

When you talk about an era being great, you don't only talk about the number of "supposed great fighters". You talk about the quality of fights between these fighters.

So what makes the welterweight division exciting now? Mayweather? To be specific, what makes it better than ever now? The fighters you have mentioned who may be forgotten like the welters of the 80's?

I say, an era is better if its fighters can be remembered well. Robinson, Basilio and Duran had proven it already. The fighters you have mentioned still needs to be tested with time. Robinson is acclaimed as the number 1 all time great by most boxing fans.

First and foremost, you're saying now that these alphabet titles matters? yeah 5 different weight divisions? Against a SLUGGISH Baldomir after he ducked Margarito? MAybe you haven't read my last comment regarding MAyweather ducking MArgarito. Let me repeat my story ( I added these lines after I posted my earlier rebuttal)

Margarito hadn't beaten anyone Baldomir beat Judah and Gatti plus Baldomir was the legit Welterweight world champion thats a fact no matter what you say he earned that belt.

By the way, mayweather did duck Margarito. He rejected an $8Million dollar offer to fight margarito in 2006 and decided to go up to fight De LA hoya but ODLH postponed the fight to 2007 so he decided to fight Cory Spinks but it did not push through coz of Spinks mandatory defense. So he decided to fight Baldomir coz he was already in the bad light.

He got the same amount of money for the Baldomir fight the Margarito fight was not worth it the Baldomir fight needed to happen it was the right fight if Mayweather would of fought Margarito he would of got no credit plus you would of heard people saying he was ducking Baldomir you can't win with some people its simple Bruce Baldomir deserved the fight with Mayweather Margarito didn't.


yeah, there maybe great fighters in the welterweight division now but does it automatically make the division better than before? I am focusing with Mayweather coz ,for you, he symbolizes the best boxer in this era.

Its simple Bruce this Welterweight era has more quality fighters than Leonard's and Robinson's Welterweight era pretty simple let me put it in simple terms more quality fighters = better era its really as simple as that there is no need to just focuse it on Mayweather.

What purpose does it serve to have great boxers when what you consider the best boxer is ducking another boxer? You mean, that will make this era better than before?

What do you mean ducking ?? if your implying that at Mayweather he has hasn't ducked anyone if you really believe that Margarito BS go ahead but Mayweather fought the legit Welterweight champion for the same money it was the better fight to take and Mayweather took it simple.


CAn you explain to me why the win of Mayweather over Shamba impressive? Williams had done it in the 4th round. Mayweather in 6th.

Well it was Mayweather's first fight at Welterweight and Mitchell is quality opposition and Mayweather stopped Mitchell with body shot which was impressive.

Mayweather can't really be expected to do some legendary thing in the welterweight coz he lacks the courage possessed by Robinson.

Lack of courage ?? he is fighting Ricky Hatton who is 43-0 and you say Mayweather lacks courage ?? and didn't Mayweather also move up to Lightmiddleweight where he has never fought before and outbox Oscar De la hoya ?? thats just nonsense calling Mayweather a coward and if Mayweather wins Hatton fight he is fighting the winner of Cotto vs Mosley hardly a coward is it ??


So mayweather had 3 fights in the welterweight since 2004 to 2007. How great is that? Boxers during the time of Robinson and Basilio were fighting an average of 9-10 fights a year.

No it was 2005 to 2007 he fought at Welterweight and you also forget he moved up in weight to fight Oscar in that time and so what if Robinson and Basilo fought 9 or 10 times a year ?? it was different era it was common back then that doesn't make an era better.

When you talk about an era being great, you don't only talk about the number of "supposed great fighters". You talk about the quality of fights between these fighters.


And what your doing is unfair again Bruce because i am only mentioning 2007 im not mentioning a whole decade i could list many classic Welterweight fights in the last 7 years if you want but the fact of matter is there are more quality Welterweights in this era than there was in Leonard's and Robison's era and thats what the debate is about good fights are all well and good but the debate is about the amount of quality fighters in each Welterweight era thats why people say Ali's era was the best Heavyweight era ever for the amount of quality fighters in that era just like with this Welterweight era right now.



So what makes the welterweight division exciting now? Mayweather? To be specific, what makes it better than ever now? The fighters you have mentioned who may be forgotten like the welters of the 80's?

Theres plenty of exciting fighters in this Welterweight era more than Robinson's and Leonard's era i'll name em.

Ricky Hatton
Miguel Cotto
Shane Mosley
Zab Judah
Andre Berto
Paul Williams
Antonio Margarito

All of these guys are exciting.

I say, an era is better if its fighters can be remembered well. Robinson, Basilio and Duran had proven it already. The fighters you have mentioned still needs to be tested with time. Robinson is acclaimed as the number 1 all time great by most boxing fans.

Most of the fighters in this Welterweight era will be remembered but the fact is Bruce and you obvisiously agree because you haven't said im wrong is that this Welterweight era was stronger than Leonard's and Robinson's because there are more quality fighters in this era agreed ??

[ICB]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Gamo what are you talking about ?? who was comparing Mayweather's resume with Robinson ?? did you read what i said ?? im on about the era and this Welterweight era was stronger than Robinson's Welterweight era thats a fact you have totally misunderstood and have not read what i said properly my job here is to defend this era.

And Mayweather is better than Duran P4P.

Mayweather is quicker has better defense and is better all round fighter than Duran of course Duran has more power but Mayweather is better all round fighter Duran lost to mediocre fighters like Robbie Simms and Kirkland Laing Mayweather would of mopped the floor with these guys you honestly don't think Mayweather is better p4p fighter than Duran ?? and you think thats absurd comment for what reason ??

[Kev]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

[ICB]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Finally someone who understood the point thats exactly what i was trying to say El Gamo totally misunderstood what i was saying Bilbo.

[El Gamo]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Oh my bad,it went off topic,I thought this was about Mayweather's resume?? I saw the original question but thought the debate changed at some point? Dam,well Bruce,you lost this big time then because you just kept talking about Mayweather!!

I still think Ice lost points for the Mayweather better than Duran P4P but other than that,he did well. Although it still went WAY off topic. WTF did SRR "ducking" Burley have to do with anythng??

REF,you need to keep a firmer grasp on things!

[ICB]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Oh my bad,it went off topic,I thought this was about Mayweather's resume?? I saw the original question but thought the debate changed at some point? Dam,well Bruce,you lost this big time then because you just kept talking about Mayweather!!

I still think Ice lost points for the Mayweather better than Duran P4P but other than that,he did well. Although it still went WAY off topic. WTF did SRR "ducking" Burley have to do with anythng??

REF,you need to keep a firmer grasp on things!

Gamo for finally understanding i didn't like slating Robinson but i did what i had to do this was very tough subject for me.

[ICB]

Ok now we just need Hitmandonny and Violent Demise.

[Kev]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Finally someone who understood the point thats exactly what i was trying to say El Gamo totally misunderstood what i was saying Bilbo.

Yup no worries buddy, I completely agree with Gamo that Duran is at least 15 places above Floyd in the all time p4p, he's possibly even top 5 ahead of Leonard and Hearns certainly some writers think so, it just wasn't relevant to the question at hand.

For me the single most significant slip up in the debate was bruce's admittance that Robinson completlely overshadowed everyone in his era, thus admitting that it wasn't as good and competitive as it is today.

He really could have scored points had he tried to argue that the 90's era was better, but he never did, he just got sidetracked trying to compare Floyd to Ray Robinson.

You cannot win a debate when you don't even answer the question that was the whole point of the debate, we're not politician's for heaven's sake :P