Does Pacquiao deserve all the hate???

[Gandalf]

To Bilbo...as the quote thingy got so long so couldn't quote anymore...

Absolute bollocks. You are telling me that Mosley deserves his shot? Based on what? Winning a round against Floyd and arguably outpointing, though getting a draw, against Mora? So, you can get a shot a shot against the best fighter in the world based on winning a round against the best and drawing with a journeyman? And it is me that has lost all perspective? Sure I have....

I like the way you spin it, Bilbo. How many fighters look good after 40 and against the best P4P fighter in the world? Do you have an actual statistic for this? I bet it is zero. Nobody does. Mosley was a great fighter, but he clearly isn't anymore. The fact that you keep trying to defend it perfectly justifies my Russian analogy.

You have nothing to support your claim that Mosley has it anymore. Okay, let's take it back further. Cotto won more rounds against Mosley than Mosley himself could take and Mayorga gave him hell up until the stoppage. That was a Mosley of half a decade ago. And suddenly we are to expect that he has moved on to a new dimension since.

It is pure delusion and used only by Pac fans to try and justify to themseleves that this fight has meaning. My argument has credence and your five year plan will once again look weak when Mosley gets seriously hurt and I really don't want to see that.

So who does deserve the fight with Manny then Miles? Would you like Manny to stop fighting until the Floyd fight could be negotioted? Maybe you would like him to move up and fight for a middleweight world title?

I would like to see him fight Tim Bradley or Marquez at 140. Berto at 147 would be nice. And any other belt holder at 154. Mosley is really proving nothing right now.

A Floyd fight would be grand and I would be supporting Manny all the way. I have given him credit after each of his victories, but I do criticise him when it is needed. Right now team Pac needs to be criticised.

Anyway, I am pissed off with this thread. I am tired of being linked with anti-semitism. If anybody refers to me or links it to me I shall report it and leave it up to the MODS from now on. I argue my points and do so as well as I can, but when you get idiots swaying in every time saying "ÿou hate Jews" and "you are an anti semite"..well it's not true and at the least I never want to see this on the main board.

[Kev]

To Bilbo...as the quote thingy got so long so couldn't quote anymore...

Absolute bollocks. You are telling me that Mosley deserves his shot? Based on what? Winning a round against Floyd and arguably outpointing, though getting a draw, against Mora? So, you can get a shot a shot against the best fighter in the world based on winning a round against the best and drawing with a journeyman? And it is me that has lost all perspective? Sure I have....

I like the way you spin it, Bilbo. How many fighters look good after 40 and against the best P4P fighter in the world? Do you have an actual statistic for this? I bet it is zero. Nobody does. Mosley was a great fighter, but he clearly isn't anymore. The fact that you keep trying to defend it perfectly justifies my Russian analogy.

You have nothing to support your claim that Mosley has it anymore. Okay, let's take it back further. Cotto won more rounds against Mosley than Mosley himself could take and Mayorga gave him hell up until the stoppage. That was a Mosley of half a decade ago. And suddenly we are to expect that he has moved on to a new dimension since.

It is pure delusion and used only by Pac fans to try and justify to themseleves that this fight has meaning. My argument has credence and your five year plan will once again look weak when Mosley gets seriously hurt and I really don't want to see that.

So who does deserve the fight with Manny then Miles? Would you like Manny to stop fighting until the Floyd fight could be negotioted? Maybe you would like him to move up and fight for a middleweight world title?

I would like to see him fight Tim Bradley or Marquez at 140. Berto at 147 would be nice. And any other belt holder at 154. Mosley is really proving nothing right now.

A Floyd fight would be grand and I would be supporting Manny all the way. I have given him credit after each of his victories, but I do criticise him when it is needed. Right now team Pac needs to be criticised.

Anyway, I am pissed off with this thread. I am tired of being linked with anti-semitism. If anybody refers to me or links it to me I shall report it and leave it up to the MODS from now on. I argue my points and do so as well as I can, but when you get idiots swaying in every time saying "ÿou hate Jews" and "you are an anti semite"..well it's not true and at the least I never want to see this on the main board.

Bradley isn't available Miles. He's preparing to fight Devon Alexander with the winner of that most likely facing Khan.

Marquez......ok just answer me this. Is there any other fighter in all of boxing apart from Manny Pacquaio that you would expect to move down a couple weight classes to fight a guy he has already beat?

Berto? That's a step down from Mosley imo. Berto hasn't beaten anybody of note and won't make Manny nearly as much money either.

[Gandalf]

To Bilbo...as the quote thingy got so long so couldn't quote anymore...

Absolute bollocks. You are telling me that Mosley deserves his shot? Based on what? Winning a round against Floyd and arguably outpointing, though getting a draw, against Mora? So, you can get a shot a shot against the best fighter in the world based on winning a round against the best and drawing with a journeyman? And it is me that has lost all perspective? Sure I have....

I like the way you spin it, Bilbo. How many fighters look good after 40 and against the best P4P fighter in the world? Do you have an actual statistic for this? I bet it is zero. Nobody does. Mosley was a great fighter, but he clearly isn't anymore. The fact that you keep trying to defend it perfectly justifies my Russian analogy.

You have nothing to support your claim that Mosley has it anymore. Okay, let's take it back further. Cotto won more rounds against Mosley than Mosley himself could take and Mayorga gave him hell up until the stoppage. That was a Mosley of half a decade ago. And suddenly we are to expect that he has moved on to a new dimension since.

It is pure delusion and used only by Pac fans to try and justify to themseleves that this fight has meaning. My argument has credence and your five year plan will once again look weak when Mosley gets seriously hurt and I really don't want to see that.

So who does deserve the fight with Manny then Miles? Would you like Manny to stop fighting until the Floyd fight could be negotioted? Maybe you would like him to move up and fight for a middleweight world title?

I would like to see him fight Tim Bradley or Marquez at 140. Berto at 147 would be nice. And any other belt holder at 154. Mosley is really proving nothing right now.

A Floyd fight would be grand and I would be supporting Manny all the way. I have given him credit after each of his victories, but I do criticise him when it is needed. Right now team Pac needs to be criticised.

Anyway, I am pissed off with this thread. I am tired of being linked with anti-semitism. If anybody refers to me or links it to me I shall report it and leave it up to the MODS from now on. I argue my points and do so as well as I can, but when you get idiots swaying in every time saying "ÿou hate Jews" and "you are an anti semite"..well it's not true and at the least I never want to see this on the main board.

Bradley isn't available Miles. He's preparing to fight Devon Alexander with the winner of that most likely facing Khan.

Marquez......ok just answer me this. Is there any other fighter in all of boxing apart from Manny Pacquaio that you would expect to move down a couple weight classes to fight a guy he has already beat?

Berto? That's a step down from Mosley imo. Berto hasn't beaten anybody of note and won't make Manny nearly as much money either.

Tim Bradley is perfectly available. It's just that Arum wanted a signature. Now!

As for Marquez, all we are suggesting is that he go up one and Pac go down one. That isn't revolutionary. And considering that Marquez has cleaned out a division and beaten Pac twice, he does have his own bargaining power.

Berto has looked better than Mosley recently. Maybe Marquez should fight Pac and Mosley should fight Berto but of course it will never happen. The winners could then fight one another.

This current fight is a money making plan only. Pac should feel ashamed for going through with it.

[Kev]

Tim Bradley is not available, unless you think boxrec are mistken
Timothy Bradley - Boxer


If it's not a big deal for fighters to move down a whole weight class why the drama when Cotto moves down a single pound, and Margarito moves UP half a division for fights with Pac?

Berto hasn't looked better than Mosley lately against comparable opposition. What wins has Berto had that were as impressive as Mosley's KO of Margarito. Has Berto even beaten anyone as good as Mayorga? I don't think so? He beat Collazo, but it was a hell of a struggle, Mosley breezed him, although of course the critics will immediately cry 'Broken hand! Broken hand!', just as they did for Clottey against Margarito, which as subsequent fights have demonstrated, not least against Pacquio, is just the way Clottey fights.

[BoxingGorilla]

I'm a "yes" vote.

I think Atlas might be a "yes" as well.

[Mar]

Of course not...pac is a great fighter and he wins. What's not to like. Fans take thier role in sports way way way too serious.

[generalbulldog]

Of course not...pac is a great fighter and he wins. What's not to like. Fans take thier role in sports way way way too serious.

Amen to that. See Lebron James and the decision. It's just fucking sports people. And sports is entertainment. Be entertain.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

I'm a "yes" vote.

I think Atlas might be a "yes" as well.

That clown, Teddy Atlas, is still getting some air time What happened to the alleged couple of e-mails that was supposed to have come from a member of Pacquiao's team and sent to the Mayweather's camp pertaining to the drug test?

[blegit]

I actually don't think Pac deserves much blame. The bulk of any blame belongs to his team. Pac would probably fight anyone Arum says. The only blame I can really give Pac is that he lets Arum control him nearly completely. Now if we are counting Pac's team then there is a load of blame. And the Mosley fight was clearly cherrypicked but I can give Pac a personal pass. Freddie Roach on the other hand clearly wanted none of Mosley until Mosley's last two showings which weren't his best works. Freddie Roach is on tape stating how Pac's up and coming opponents have no longer got it. He said that about DLH, Cotto, Margarito, and now Mosley. Though he did say Mosley will still be dangerous in the early fight. So if people want to believe Roach is not cherrypicking he is at least trying to. So I give this a no. Pac himself doesn't deserve all the hate.

[fan johnny]

I'm a "yes" vote.

I think Atlas might be a "yes" as well.

He goes against Pacquiao every fight. That guy can't stand being wrong and can't admit it. Simple as that. Max Kellerman on the other hand is a convert.

How can anyone hate a guy who can only be quoted saying "I'm just doing my Job". If the question was Does Pacquiao deserve all the envy, I say yes. There are always going to be cynical people just waiting for the chance to attack the innocent.

[:::PSL:::]

I'm a "yes" vote.

I think Atlas might be a "yes" as well.

He goes against Pacquiao every fight. That guy can't stand being wrong and can't admit it. Simple as that. Max Kellerman on the other hand is a convert.

How can anyone hate a guy who can only be quoted saying "I'm just doing my Job". If the question was Does Pacquiao deserve all the envy, I say yes. There are always going to be cynical people just waiting for the chance to attack the innocent.

And that's why I love watching his disappointed dumbass face every Pacquiao post fight. I find it really entertaining the way he explain his bullshit predictions, on how he was wrong. He said the main reason why Margarito lost because his corner wasn't hydrating him. They were'nt giving him enough water, which is absolutely not true.

[miron_lang]

If it's not a big deal for fighters to move down a whole weight class why the drama when Cotto moves down a single pound, and Margarito moves UP half a division for fights with Pac?

Perfect logic and straight to the point Mr. Baggins. Miles is a bit off in this topic IMO.

He wants Pac to move down to face Marquez but he doesnt give full credit to Pac for asking Cotto to move down 1lb.

[Kev]

If it's not a big deal for fighters to move down a whole weight class why the drama when Cotto moves down a single pound, and Margarito moves UP half a division for fights with Pac?

Perfect logic and straight to the point Mr. Baggins. Miles is a bit off in this topic IMO.

He wants Pac to move down to face Marquez but he doesnt give full credit to Pac for asking Cotto to move down 1lb.

The ironic thing is that the haters of Manny actually rate him higher than his fans. They just take for granted that he can move up and down between about three weight classes and smash 'joke' opposition like Antonio Margarito and Shane Mosley.

The criticisms against him are amazing. I mean at welterweight he has beaten Oscar, Cotto, Clottey, Margo at 150 and is now fighting Shane Mosley.

When Floyd when up to welter he fought Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir, then Baldo himself in a fight where he danced around the ring for 12 rounds and refused to engage for a second. He then dragged up Hatton and Marquez to fight him (I give him full props for fighting Oscar at 154 however, to me that WAS a big deal considering how many divisions Floyd climbed to ultimately get that fight).

Manny basically immediately has fought all the guys Floyd dodged for years and has literally battered them around the ring, and some people can just gripe 'Oh but he made him lose a pound! This win means nothing! NOTHING!'.

Let's face it, if Miles was present to witness Jesus feed the 5000 with 5 loaves and 3 fish or whatever he would be like 'Cod? COD? This is just common cod and white bread! Why didn't he make us some nice sea bass and a nice French loaf?' Bah! Rubbish, call himself the Messiah!!

[fan johnny]

If it's not a big deal for fighters to move down a whole weight class why the drama when Cotto moves down a single pound, and Margarito moves UP half a division for fights with Pac?

Perfect logic and straight to the point Mr. Baggins. Miles is a bit off in this topic IMO.

He wants Pac to move down to face Marquez but he doesnt give full credit to Pac for asking Cotto to move down 1lb.

The ironic thing is that the haters of Manny actually rate him higher than his fans. They just take for granted that he can move up and down between about three weight classes and smash 'joke' opposition like Antonio Margarito and Shane Mosley.

The criticisms against him are amazing. I mean at welterweight he has beaten Oscar, Cotto, Clottey, Margo at 150 and is now fighting Shane Mosley.

When Floyd when up to welter he fought Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir, then Baldo himself in a fight where he danced around the ring for 12 rounds and refused to engage for a second. He then dragged up Hatton and Marquez to fight him (I give him full props for fighting Oscar at 154 however, to me that WAS a big deal considering how many divisions Floyd climbed to ultimately get that fight).

Manny basically immediately has fought all the guys Floyd dodged for years and has literally battered them around the ring, and some people can just gripe 'Oh but he made him lose a pound! This win means nothing! NOTHING!'.

Let's face it, if Miles was present to witness Jesus feed the 5000 with 5 loaves and 3 fish or whatever he would be like 'Cod? COD? This is just common cod and white bread! Why didn't he make us some nice sea bass and a nice French loaf?' Bah! Rubbish, call himself the Messiah!!

Hey, don't forget to criticize Pacquiao for not fight Sergio Martinez.

[Gandalf]

If it's not a big deal for fighters to move down a whole weight class why the drama when Cotto moves down a single pound, and Margarito moves UP half a division for fights with Pac?

Perfect logic and straight to the point Mr. Baggins. Miles is a bit off in this topic IMO.

He wants Pac to move down to face Marquez but he doesnt give full credit to Pac for asking Cotto to move down 1lb.

The ironic thing is that the haters of Manny actually rate him higher than his fans. They just take for granted that he can move up and down between about three weight classes and smash 'joke' opposition like Antonio Margarito and Shane Mosley.

The criticisms against him are amazing. I mean at welterweight he has beaten Oscar, Cotto, Clottey, Margo at 150 and is now fighting Shane Mosley.

When Floyd when up to welter he fought Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir, then Baldo himself in a fight where he danced around the ring for 12 rounds and refused to engage for a second. He then dragged up Hatton and Marquez to fight him (I give him full props for fighting Oscar at 154 however, to me that WAS a big deal considering how many divisions Floyd climbed to ultimately get that fight).

Manny basically immediately has fought all the guys Floyd dodged for years and has literally battered them around the ring, and some people can just gripe 'Oh but he made him lose a pound! This win means nothing! NOTHING!'.

Let's face it, if Miles was present to witness Jesus feed the 5000 with 5 loaves and 3 fish or whatever he would be like 'Cod? COD? This is just common cod and white bread! Why didn't he make us some nice sea bass and a nice French loaf?' Bah! Rubbish, call himself the Messiah!!

Why is it always me that is singled out? I am one of the more moderate of the Pac critics! I have also been a strong critic of Floyd at 140 and above too and Floyd definitely deserves more of the criticism. I think we can both agree on that. But having said that, if there are weaknesses then they must be pointed out. I was critical of the Cotto CW before the fight was even made, so it is a view I have always had. If there was no advantage to be gained from it then why did Roach make it part of the fight agreement. We can all quibble and say "but it was only a couple of pounds". But a couple of pounds to these guys who burn off a lot is significant. Heck, why not just have Cotto back at JWW after all it's only 5 pounds less than the CW. Surely nothing! These small numbers are significant when dealing with fighters. Anything extra to take the edge off.

And the same with Margarito, if you want to be a proper 154 champion then you should actually beat a 154 champ at that weight. I do not regard Margarito as a LMW champion, it was a paper belt at best and fought at another CW. Margarito had been discredited and labelled a cheater and suddenly we are to regard him as a JMW world champion? Nonsense, Martinez is what I regard as a JMW champion. The real deal who fought his way to the top the proper way, not a cheater like Margarito who got bought a belt in his first comeback bout by the awful Arum.

Mosley is an old man, clearly past his best. This is a horrible fight for me because I really like Mosley, but he has shown very little in recent fights. How is a 40 year old Mosley going to have the stamina to keep up with Pac? At the least Pac should be fighting credible opponents on some kind of streak. Sure Mosley has his power, but if he can't land and Pac is using his footwork it will be a very long night. He doesn't have Margarito's output or relative youth. Nobody is going to get any pleasure from seeing Mosley get put to pasture in what could be a very messy end to a career.

I regard Manny at these weights far higher than Floyd, he is exciting to watch and goes for the KO every time. But let's not make excuses for CW's and paper titles, they don't mean anything. Pac did nothing at LW and he did nothing at JMW, he took a trinket from one of the worst fighters in the division and then took one from one who didn't even deserve a trinket in the first place. At WW he wouldn't even fight at the weight. There is just no need for that. JMM deserves respect for hanging around and cleaning up a division, Pac never even attempts to do such a thing.

I like watching Pac fight, but we mustn't try and sugar coat everything. At the end of the day this is boxing and Pac's team are not the most trustworthy or reliable of people. They make questionable decisions and Pac seems to go along with it. He deserves his portion of the blame. Are we to assume that Pac the politician has no views about what is being done with his career? Of course he does, he is quite complicit.