Duran vs Whitaker, prime vs prime at LW

[greynotsoold]

You forgot a few...Holly Mims, Aaron Wade, Rocky Castellani, Ralph Dupas, Bobo Olson, Jose Basora, Charlie Fusari, Steve Belloise, Kid Gavilan, Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, and Marty Servo.
He fought Izzy Janazzo a whole bunch of times, and Jannazzo had a final record of 63(8 kos)-45 (stopped 6 times, three by Robinson, one in his last fight), which isn't much. Until you look at his record and the quality of guys he was fighting, many of them several times, and losing close fights to and you can tell that he could fight more than a little bit.
Look at Robinson's record and how early on he was fighting guys like Angott and Zivic and Servo and you can see he wasn't ever taking easy fights.

[Beanflicker]

You forgot a few...Holly Mims, Aaron Wade, Rocky Castellani, Ralph Dupas, Bobo Olson, Jose Basora, Charlie Fusari, Steve Belloise, Kid Gavilan, Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, and Marty Servo.
He fought Izzy Janazzo a whole bunch of times, and Jannazzo had a final record of 63(8 kos)-45 (stopped 6 times, three by Robinson, one in his last fight), which isn't much. Until you look at his record and the quality of guys he was fighting, many of them several times, and losing close fights to and you can tell that he could fight more than a little bit.
Look at Robinson's record and how early on he was fighting guys like Angott and Zivic and Servo and you can see he wasn't ever taking easy fights.

Ok I'll take your word for it and add the 10 extra guys I never mentioned (I have to question how good a 63-45 record fighter is but ok).

Thats 25 legit fights out of 200, which is up to 12.5%.

Lets take a look at a modern great, Floyd Mayweather.

Genaro Hernandez
Angel Manfredy
Diego Corrales
Jesus Chavez
Jose Luis Castillo twice
Arturo Gatti (if Jannazzo is added, surely we can add Gatti)
Sharmba Mitchell (Manny Stewart picked Sharmba to beat Floyd)
Zab Judah
De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton
Juan Manuel Marquez
Shane Mosley
Cotto
Alvarez (coming up)

That's being less than generous, leaving out a host of tough champs he fought like Ortiz, Guerrero, ect. You can tell me if you think any of these guys shouldn't be included. I put Sharmba in there mainly on the basis of Stewart's prediction so he can go.

But as it stands now, that's 33% for Floyd (so roughly 1/3) and 10 less than SRR, which is pretty surprising considering Floyd has less than 1/4th the number of fights that SRR had.

[Kirkland Laing]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

[p4pking]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

So on one hand, you can attribute a guy's toughness to coming from hunger, and at the same time "give him modern nutrition and training" and he'd be a better fighter? I think a certain measure of both is always neccesary to produce a top fighter in any era, this arguement really doesn't work imo.

[Beanflicker]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

Meh I think that's a "rose-colored glasses" view of it if I ever heard one.

I don't buy the thought that they were so much tougher back then, either. There are cowards and warriors from every generation. A few weeks ago I watched Dennis Lebedev plod forward with the most fucked up facial injuries I've ever seen in a boxing ring.
A warrior's heart is something you're born with, and there are still tons of boxers today who came from absolutely nothing with the hunger to make something of themselves.

We hear all this hyperbole about the old school guys, but when you put that aside and actually watch a guy like Bobo Olsen, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio... they were nothing special. These guys weren't the omnipotent demigods that boxing "experts" would have us believe. It's all about context.

[Beanflicker]

And Robinson quit against Maxim. I know people will say "ohh it was hot" "oh he had to carry Maxim's weight". That's true. But he was still conscious, he could still get up, he chose not to.

These guys are still human after all!

[Master]

And Robinson quit against Maxim. I know people will say "ohh it was hot" "oh he had to carry Maxim's weight". That's true. But he was still conscious, he could still get up, he chose not to.

These guys are still human after all!

The ref could not finish the fight, that is how how it was dipstick.

[bradlee180]

And Robinson quit against Maxim. I know people will say "ohh it was hot" "oh he had to carry Maxim's weight". That's true. But he was still conscious, he could still get up, he chose not to.

These guys are still human after all!

You're just being a f*<kin' idiot with this bull$#!t here. I try to stay away from being rude, but when someone makes an idiotic statement like this, ya can't sugar-coat it...

[DavilaJones]

So....back to the question at hand.


JMM vs Armstrong
Benny vs Duran
Mosley vs Sweet Pete
Ike Williams vs Mayweather


Advance it from there gentlemen!

[Beanflicker]

You're just being a f*<kin' idiot with this bull$#!t here. I try to stay away from being rude, but when someone makes an idiotic statement like this, ya can't sugar-coat it...

Why is that idiotic? He quit, didn't he?

And so what if the fat, middle-aged ref couldn't finish the fight? That's supposed to mean something? I get it was hot, but he quit. There's no getting around it.

[Beanflicker]

I'm not saying SRR was a sissy, I'm just saying he was human just like any other fighter.

My point is that we'll go out of our way to justify why an old timer showed a bit of weakness and quit, but we'll bury a modern guy in a second if he shows the same weakness and go on about how "back in the day, fighters didn't quit".

Roberto Duran quit worse than anyone I've ever seen, and you'll still get people trying to justify it.

[bradlee180]

It's hard to believe, but far too common it seems: Too many people attempt to comment on a fight without actually having seen it...

[Beanflicker]

It's hard to believe, but far too common it seems: Too many people attempt to comment on a fight without actually having seen it...

Who did that? If you're referring to me, please tell me what I'm missing, because I have indeed seen the fight.

[Violent Demise]

I think Pernell would make a guy like Mosley look foolish though.

Agreed! I think Mosley was an ATG lightweight, but I don't fancy his chances against Whitaker!

Yeah nothing against Shane, but his style would be something that played to Whittaker's best attributes. I think the more you load up on punches then the more you play into Whittaker's hands.

Mosley always did load up on his punches. But at Lightweight he had the hand speed to get away with it. I think Mosley would take it on points

[chinchekked]

Whitaker wins a decision, underrated toughness and his pure boxing ability helps him win in a close but clear decision. Duran was a tough SOB but he could be outboxed and I think Whitaker would have just enough pop at LW to allow him to box Duran over 15. Now that being said I wouldn't be suprised if Whitaker gets dropped 1 or 2 times late to lose a close decision or even get tko'd but at 135 I just don't see that happening. Pernell is the man @135 IMO