Lee v Saunders 'head to head'

[ross]

Well I guess I need to resign my post here...I mean it's obvious that I haven't had a pro or amateur fight so I couldn't possibly know anything about boxing. I mean Burt Sugar boxed, Dan Rafael boxed, Jim Lampley boxed, Larry Merchant boxed, Max Kellerman boxed, Brian Kenny boxed, Bernard Osuna boxed, and look at me....the hubris I must have to think I know anything about boxing.


I guess also since I've never held public office I can't complain about politicians either.


My world has been shaken to the core

All those names talk their fair amount of shit.

I watched or read an interview yesterday maybe even a post in here, cant even remember who it was with and they hit the nail on the head when they saiid the commentators like the people you mentioned are only repeating things and opinions they have heard from boxers and they labelled them parrot commentators. Those who havent boxed lap it up and take it all in because they know no better.

Primo, my record was 18 fights, 12 wins. Boxed 2 and a half seasons before I broke my right hand then never had the time with work to train as I did before. I took a job with our electricity supplier and did standbys so couldnt be getting up at 5.30am for runs, or even getting to the boxing club for 5pm any more and the combination of not being able to train properly or commit to any fights with my right hand fucked or being able to train as much as I felt I needed to I just felt I was out too long to get back in to it. Especially when the club wasnt that big but had a big contingient of boxers who took priority on the pads etc. I. Was asked to become a ref because the coach felt that they needed another ref whos actually boxed before but to become a ref you have to do a year as a judge first but judging isnt for me. Its dull, lonely and difficult.

Thanks for the life story Ross, seems like a lot of excuses in there, Broken Hand, new job, didn't have the time, too tired, no priority on the pads , cat died ,blah, blah, blah. Then they asked you to ref rather than coach, cos you weren't up to that , so you judged and because a couple of people criticised you, you sacked it off. forgive me for not getting the violin out here!
and all of this gives you licence to call Wlad and Haye Cowards? nice one.

So whats your excuses?

[El Kabong]

So whats your excuses?

What will be your excuse when Wlad flattens your boy? You KNOW boxing ross, you've lived it, you've been through "seasons" of boxing....that's more than all of us can say.....but when you end up being absolutely wrong about Tyson Fury and his chances at doing anything in the division, what then?

[ross]

So whats your excuses?

What will be your excuse when Wlad flattens your boy? You KNOW boxing ross, you've lived it, you've been through "seasons" of boxing....that's more than all of us can say.....but when you end up being absolutely wrong about Tyson Fury and his chances at doing anything in the division, what then?

I dont need to be concerned about that.

[El Kabong]

I dont need to be concerned about that.

OK, cool bro

[Primo Carnera]

Well I guess I need to resign my post here...I mean it's obvious that I haven't had a pro or amateur fight so I couldn't possibly know anything about boxing. I mean Burt Sugar boxed, Dan Rafael boxed, Jim Lampley boxed, Larry Merchant boxed, Max Kellerman boxed, Brian Kenny boxed, Bernard Osuna boxed, and look at me....the hubris I must have to think I know anything about boxing.


I guess also since I've never held public office I can't complain about politicians either.


My world has been shaken to the core

All those names talk their fair amount of shit.

I watched or read an interview yesterday maybe even a post in here, cant even remember who it was with and they hit the nail on the head when they saiid the commentators like the people you mentioned are only repeating things and opinions they have heard from boxers and they labelled them parrot commentators. Those who havent boxed lap it up and take it all in because they know no better.

Primo, my record was 18 fights, 12 wins. Boxed 2 and a half seasons before I broke my right hand then never had the time with work to train as I did before. I took a job with our electricity supplier and did standbys so couldnt be getting up at 5.30am for runs, or even getting to the boxing club for 5pm any more and the combination of not being able to train properly or commit to any fights with my right hand fucked or being able to train as much as I felt I needed to I just felt I was out too long to get back in to it. Especially when the club wasnt that big but had a big contingient of boxers who took priority on the pads etc. I. Was asked to become a ref because the coach felt that they needed another ref whos actually boxed before but to become a ref you have to do a year as a judge first but judging isnt for me. Its dull, lonely and difficult.

Thanks for the life story Ross, seems like a lot of excuses in there, Broken Hand, new job, didn't have the time, too tired, no priority on the pads , cat died ,blah, blah, blah. Then they asked you to ref rather than coach, cos you weren't up to that , so you judged and because a couple of people criticised you, you sacked it off. forgive me for not getting the violin out here!
and all of this gives you licence to call Wlad and Haye Cowards? nice one.

So whats your excuses?

No excuses from me , I committed and dedicated myself to a different sport to a decent level and I wouldn't have been able to do both because they clashed and have different physical requirements.
but I don't want to talk about myself, I find that invariably people talk about themselves because nobody else talks about them, bit of a craving for attention, but I suppose that's something that we're different on. (is that enough emoji's for you?)

[ross]

Well I guess I need to resign my post here...I mean it's obvious that I haven't had a pro or amateur fight so I couldn't possibly know anything about boxing. I mean Burt Sugar boxed, Dan Rafael boxed, Jim Lampley boxed, Larry Merchant boxed, Max Kellerman boxed, Brian Kenny boxed, Bernard Osuna boxed, and look at me....the hubris I must have to think I know anything about boxing.


I guess also since I've never held public office I can't complain about politicians either.


My world has been shaken to the core

All those names talk their fair amount of shit.

I watched or read an interview yesterday maybe even a post in here, cant even remember who it was with and they hit the nail on the head when they saiid the commentators like the people you mentioned are only repeating things and opinions they have heard from boxers and they labelled them parrot commentators. Those who havent boxed lap it up and take it all in because they know no better.

Primo, my record was 18 fights, 12 wins. Boxed 2 and a half seasons before I broke my right hand then never had the time with work to train as I did before. I took a job with our electricity supplier and did standbys so couldnt be getting up at 5.30am for runs, or even getting to the boxing club for 5pm any more and the combination of not being able to train properly or commit to any fights with my right hand fucked or being able to train as much as I felt I needed to I just felt I was out too long to get back in to it. Especially when the club wasnt that big but had a big contingient of boxers who took priority on the pads etc. I. Was asked to become a ref because the coach felt that they needed another ref whos actually boxed before but to become a ref you have to do a year as a judge first but judging isnt for me. Its dull, lonely and difficult.

Thanks for the life story Ross, seems like a lot of excuses in there, Broken Hand, new job, didn't have the time, too tired, no priority on the pads , cat died ,blah, blah, blah. Then they asked you to ref rather than coach, cos you weren't up to that , so you judged and because a couple of people criticised you, you sacked it off. forgive me for not getting the violin out here!
and all of this gives you licence to call Wlad and Haye Cowards? nice one.

So whats your excuses?

No excuses from me , I committed and dedicated myself to a different sport to a decent level and I wouldn't have been able to do both because they clashed and have different physical requirements.
but I don't want to talk about myself, I find that invariably people talk about themselves because nobody else talks about them, bit of a craving for attention, but I suppose that's something that we're different on. (is that enough emoji's for you?)

Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?

[El Kabong]

Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?

Well I played American Football, Lacrosse, Baseball, Ice Hockey, and I boxed....oh excuse me I "did training" ....but of course I'd know nothing of competition, nothing of strategy, none of that stuff seeing how I only "did training" and since you assume a great deal about my "doing training" you know that to be true.


"You are always evenly matched!" ....meaning what as long as both fighters have a head, two arms, and two legs they're matched evenly? So If Valuev the 7 foot tall former WBA title holder was to fight current minimumweight champion Wanheng Menayothin it would be an "evenly matched" fight? Or if Wladimir was to fight an amateur 16 year old that's "evenly matched"?

[Primo Carnera]

Well I guess I need to resign my post here...I mean it's obvious that I haven't had a pro or amateur fight so I couldn't possibly know anything about boxing. I mean Burt Sugar boxed, Dan Rafael boxed, Jim Lampley boxed, Larry Merchant boxed, Max Kellerman boxed, Brian Kenny boxed, Bernard Osuna boxed, and look at me....the hubris I must have to think I know anything about boxing.


I guess also since I've never held public office I can't complain about politicians either.


My world has been shaken to the core

All those names talk their fair amount of shit.

I watched or read an interview yesterday maybe even a post in here, cant even remember who it was with and they hit the nail on the head when they saiid the commentators like the people you mentioned are only repeating things and opinions they have heard from boxers and they labelled them parrot commentators. Those who havent boxed lap it up and take it all in because they know no better.

Primo, my record was 18 fights, 12 wins. Boxed 2 and a half seasons before I broke my right hand then never had the time with work to train as I did before. I took a job with our electricity supplier and did standbys so couldnt be getting up at 5.30am for runs, or even getting to the boxing club for 5pm any more and the combination of not being able to train properly or commit to any fights with my right hand fucked or being able to train as much as I felt I needed to I just felt I was out too long to get back in to it. Especially when the club wasnt that big but had a big contingient of boxers who took priority on the pads etc. I. Was asked to become a ref because the coach felt that they needed another ref whos actually boxed before but to become a ref you have to do a year as a judge first but judging isnt for me. Its dull, lonely and difficult.

Thanks for the life story Ross, seems like a lot of excuses in there, Broken Hand, new job, didn't have the time, too tired, no priority on the pads , cat died ,blah, blah, blah. Then they asked you to ref rather than coach, cos you weren't up to that , so you judged and because a couple of people criticised you, you sacked it off. forgive me for not getting the violin out here!
and all of this gives you licence to call Wlad and Haye Cowards? nice one.

So whats your excuses?

No excuses from me , I committed and dedicated myself to a different sport to a decent level and I wouldn't have been able to do both because they clashed and have different physical requirements.
but I don't want to talk about myself, I find that invariably people talk about themselves because nobody else talks about them, bit of a craving for attention, but I suppose that's something that we're different on. (is that enough emoji's for you?)

Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?

Ha. "Suspiciously excusy"? I really don't want to sound like some fuckin hero here, but when I do something I want to do it as well as I can. In the sport that I competed in, more muscle mass and more weight was required. in Boxing , to get the best out of yourself, if you're a certain height, realistically you need to get down to a certain weight. E.g. If you were 5 foot 9 tall, realistically you wouldn't want to box any heavier than MW (11stone 6lb) whereas you could play physical team sports and be 5 foot 9 tall and weigh 13 stone , be ripped and do very well.
In a nutshell, if you want to excel at various sports , your body shape and mass have to change.
If you can't understand this Ross, well I can't spell it out any clearer. Like I said, I don't want to give my life story because nobody is interested and I'll leave that to insecure people like you who want to give it the big'un and imagine they are superior.
I agree that Boxing training is exceptionally hard, and I have trained in a gym and fucking loved it. But I used it as extra fitness for the sport that I competed in.
The gym I trained in had ABA Champions, Commonwealth games competitors and British pro title contenders , but I'm not going to pretend I sparred with them just to please you, however I have trained with them.
I fail to see the relevance of your post, but The thing is with you Ross, when you're stumped to answer a question, you spout off some horse shit and ignore the question raised. It's pathetic really, but I don't think it's just me who sees through. Basically I think most people on here think you talk shit, that's why you were crying and whinging because people liked a post where I made you look the fool you are!

[ross]

Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?

Well I played American Football, Lacrosse, Baseball, Ice Hockey, and I boxed....oh excuse me I "did training" ....but of course I'd know nothing of competition, nothing of strategy, none of that stuff seeing how I only "did training" and since you assume a great deal about my "doing training" you know that to be true.


"You are always evenly matched!" ....meaning what as long as both fighters have a head, two arms, and two legs they're matched evenly? So If Valuev the 7 foot tall former WBA title holder was to fight current minimumweight champion Wanheng Menayothin it would be an "evenly matched" fight? Or if Wladimir was to fight an amateur 16 year old that's "evenly matched"?

Im glad iv quoted this before you can edit it but you have just shown yourself to be totally clueless to amateur boxing. In amateur you will get matched evenly. Same weight with sameday weighins, similar amount of bouts and similar in age.

You would have no idea how to put a strategy in to practice if you have never competed. You dont even talk like you know a great deal about boxing. Others on here do.

Your unravelling now

[Primo Carnera]

I'm posting this again because I don't want Ross pretending he missed it and that's why he never answered, like he did when I offered him a bet and he bottled it!

"Ha. "Suspiciously excusy"? I really don't want to sound like some fuckin hero here, but when I do something I want to do it as well as I can. In the sport that I competed in, more muscle mass and more weight was required. in Boxing , to get the best out of yourself, if you're a certain height, realistically you need to get down to a certain weight. E.g. If you were 5 foot 9 tall, realistically you wouldn't want to box any heavier than MW (11stone 6lb) whereas you could play physical team sports and be 5 foot 9 tall and weigh 13 stone , be ripped and do very well.
In a nutshell, if you want to excel at various sports , your body shape and mass have to change.
If you can't understand this Ross, well I can't spell it out any clearer. Like I said, I don't want to give my life story because nobody is interested and I'll leave that to insecure people like you who want to give it the big'un and imagine they are superior.
I agree that Boxing training is exceptionally hard, and I have trained in a gym and fucking loved it. But I used it as extra fitness for the sport that I competed in.
The gym I trained in had ABA Champions, Commonwealth games competitors and British pro title contenders , but I'm not going to pretend I sparred with them just to please you, however I have trained with them.
I fail to see the relevance of your post, but The thing is with you Ross, when you're stumped to answer a question, you spout off some horse shit and ignore the question raised. It's pathetic really, but I don't think it's just me who sees through. Basically I think most people on here think you talk shit, that's why you were crying and whinging because people liked a post where I made you look the fool you are!"

[ross]

Well I guess I need to resign my post here...I mean it's obvious that I haven't had a pro or amateur fight so I couldn't possibly know anything about boxing. I mean Burt Sugar boxed, Dan Rafael boxed, Jim Lampley boxed, Larry Merchant boxed, Max Kellerman boxed, Brian Kenny boxed, Bernard Osuna boxed, and look at me....the hubris I must have to think I know anything about boxing.


I guess also since I've never held public office I can't complain about politicians either.


My world has been shaken to the core

All those names talk their fair amount of shit.

I watched or read an interview yesterday maybe even a post in here, cant even remember who it was with and they hit the nail on the head when they saiid the commentators like the people you mentioned are only repeating things and opinions they have heard from boxers and they labelled them parrot commentators. Those who havent boxed lap it up and take it all in because they know no better.

Primo, my record was 18 fights, 12 wins. Boxed 2 and a half seasons before I broke my right hand then never had the time with work to train as I did before. I took a job with our electricity supplier and did standbys so couldnt be getting up at 5.30am for runs, or even getting to the boxing club for 5pm any more and the combination of not being able to train properly or commit to any fights with my right hand fucked or being able to train as much as I felt I needed to I just felt I was out too long to get back in to it. Especially when the club wasnt that big but had a big contingient of boxers who took priority on the pads etc. I. Was asked to become a ref because the coach felt that they needed another ref whos actually boxed before but to become a ref you have to do a year as a judge first but judging isnt for me. Its dull, lonely and difficult.

Thanks for the life story Ross, seems like a lot of excuses in there, Broken Hand, new job, didn't have the time, too tired, no priority on the pads , cat died ,blah, blah, blah. Then they asked you to ref rather than coach, cos you weren't up to that , so you judged and because a couple of people criticised you, you sacked it off. forgive me for not getting the violin out here!
and all of this gives you licence to call Wlad and Haye Cowards? nice one.

So whats your excuses?

No excuses from me , I committed and dedicated myself to a different sport to a decent level and I wouldn't have been able to do both because they clashed and have different physical requirements.
but I don't want to talk about myself, I find that invariably people talk about themselves because nobody else talks about them, bit of a craving for attention, but I suppose that's something that we're different on. (is that enough emoji's for you?)

Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?

Ha. "Suspiciously excusy"? I really don't want to sound like some fuckin hero here, but when I do something I want to do it as well as I can. In the sport that I competed in, more muscle mass and more weight was required. in Boxing , to get the best out of yourself, if you're a certain height, realistically you need to get down to a certain weight. E.g. If you were 5 foot 9 tall, realistically you wouldn't want to box any heavier than MW (11stone 6lb) whereas you could play physical team sports and be 5 foot 9 tall and weigh 13 stone , be ripped and do very well.
In a nutshell, if you want to excel at various sports , your body shape and mass have to change.
If you can't understand this Ross, well I can't spell it out any clearer. Like I said, I don't want to give my life story because nobody is interested and I'll leave that to insecure people like you who want to give it the big'un and imagine they are superior.
I agree that Boxing training is exceptionally hard, and I have trained in a gym and fucking loved it. But I used it as extra fitness for the sport that I competed in.
The gym I trained in had ABA Champions, Commonwealth games competitors and British pro title contenders , but I'm not going to pretend I sparred with them just to please you, however I have trained with them.
I fail to see the relevance of your post, but The thing is with you Ross, when you're stumped to answer a question, you spout off some horse shit and ignore the question raised. It's pathetic really, but I don't think it's just me who sees through. Basically I think most people on here think you talk shit, that's why you were crying and whinging because people liked a post where I made you look the fool you are!

What a load of toss!

Plenty of examples of naturally stocky world champions! You found an excuse not to get your head stoved in, good for you

[El Kabong]

Im glad iv quoted this before you can edit it but you have just shown yourself to be totally clueless to amateur boxing. In amateur you will get matched evenly. Same weight with sameday weighins, similar amount of bouts and similar in age.

You would have no idea how to put a strategy in to practice if you have never competed. You dont even talk like you know a great deal about boxing. Others on here do.

Your unravelling now

Ha, well first off you never specified that you were talking about amateur boxing and neither were you referring to Primo mentioning amateur boxing, just boxing in general and IN GENERAL boxers especially early on are NOT evenly matched. It is up to trainers, managers, and athletic commissions to do the match making.

Yes in the amateurs if 1 fighter has 5 fights they typically won't let him fight someone in the same weight class with 20 or 30 fights. That is part of the reason why it was very difficult for me to find a bout as an amateur and yeah I was all signed up and had my USA boxing book and everything....nobody nearby who was able to fight because in my entire state, hell in my entire area of the country it's difficult to find a boxing gym let alone someone to fight who is the same size and same experience level....so I got frustrated with it and didn't bother with amateur bouts, I just sparred and that was fine, I toyed with the idea of turning pro, but the promoters here were willing to bring guys down from boxing rich communities and kill off the talent trying to grow from this area. You bring a guy from NYC, New Jersey, Philly, Las Vegas, Miami to my state to box....and well it's going to be very tough to have any kind of career when the promoters are sacrificing home talent to out of towners trying to get good crowds at the bouts. So why would I bother going that route?


"You don't even talk like you know a great deal about boxing."


Examples?

[ross]

Im glad iv quoted this before you can edit it but you have just shown yourself to be totally clueless to amateur boxing. In amateur you will get matched evenly. Same weight with sameday weighins, similar amount of bouts and similar in age.

You would have no idea how to put a strategy in to practice if you have never competed. You dont even talk like you know a great deal about boxing. Others on here do.

Your unravelling now

Ha, well first off you never specified that you were talking about amateur boxing and neither were you referring to Primo mentioning amateur boxing, just boxing in general and IN GENERAL boxers especially early on are NOT evenly matched. It is up to trainers, managers, and athletic commissions to do the match making.

Yes in the amateurs if 1 fighter has 5 fights they typically won't let him fight someone in the same weight class with 20 or 30 fights. That is part of the reason why it was very difficult for me to find a bout as an amateur and yeah I was all signed up and had my USA boxing book and everything....nobody nearby who was able to fight because in my entire state, hell in my entire area of the country it's difficult to find a boxing gym let alone someone to fight who is the same size and same experience level....so I got frustrated with it and didn't bother with amateur bouts, I just sparred and that was fine, I toyed with the idea of turning pro, but the promoters here were willing to bring guys down from boxing rich communities and kill off the talent trying to grow from this area. You bring a guy from NYC, New Jersey, Philly, Las Vegas, Miami to my state to box....and well it's going to be very tough to have any kind of career when the promoters are sacrificing home talent to out of towners trying to get good crowds at the bouts. So why would I bother going that route?


"You don't even talk like you know a great deal about boxing."


Examples?

I did specify amateur, you just obviously didnt read my post properly. Its in the post you quoted!

Examples... Every time you post?

[El Kabong]

I did specify amateur, you just obviously didnt read my post properly. Its in the post you quoted!

Examples... Every time you post?

OH IS IT Then you won't mind picking out the word "amateur" in there?

"Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?"



.....hmmmmm I don't see it. Care to highlight where you said it ross? Or did you get a little confused....it's ok if you did though.

[ross]

I did specify amateur, you just obviously didnt read my post properly. Its in the post you quoted!

Examples... Every time you post?

OH IS IT Then you won't mind picking out the word "amateur" in there?

"Thats suspiciously excusy.

We had footballers, runners, cyclists, rugby players, martial artists, track and field athletes allsorts trying out boxing and they all actually boxed with varying degrees of success. They actually trued it out and gave it a go. They didnt assess from the sidelines that the sport they are currently in would instantly deem them unsuitable! what a load of shit! All those other sports people actually said the boxing training was harder than they expected and used to come up to benefit their other sports!

Boxing is one of those sports that unless you have a disability anyone is suitable for because you are always evenly matched! As long as you go amateur and not white collar. Also, by physical requirements, do you mean it would be physically more demanding and mentally more draining?"



.....hmmmmm I don't see it. Care to highlight where you said it ross? Or did you get a little confused....it's ok if you did though.

Fuck sakes.....