Official : IceColcBoxing Vs BruceLee for Welterweight MMWC

[ICB]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Finally someone who understood the point thats exactly what i was trying to say El Gamo totally misunderstood what i was saying Bilbo.

Yup no worries buddy, I completely agree with Gamo that Duran is at least 15 places above Floyd in the all time p4p, he's possibly even top 5 ahead of Leonard and Hearns certainly some writers think so, it just wasn't relevant to the question at hand.

For me the single most significant slip up in the debate was bruce's admittance that Robinson completlely overshadowed everyone in his era, thus admitting that it wasn't as good and competitive as it is today.

He really could have scored points had he tried to argue that the 90's era was better, but he never did, he just got sidetracked trying to compare Floyd to Ray Robinson.

You cannot win a debate when you don't even answer the question that was the whole point of the debate, we're not politician's for heaven's sake :P

Bilbo when i said i thought Mayweather was better P4P fighter than Duran i don't mean ranking wise i meant like i think Mayweather is faster has better defense is better overall fighter ect.

[Kev]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Oh my bad,it went off topic,I thought this was about Mayweather's resume?? I saw the original question but thought the debate changed at some point? Dam,well Bruce,you lost this big time then because you just kept talking about Mayweather!!

I still think Ice lost points for the Mayweather better than Duran P4P but other than that,he did well. Although it still went WAY off topic. WTF did SRR "ducking" Burley have to do with anythng??

REF,you need to keep a firmer grasp on things!

Well a pat on the back to me I think for my own debating skills. With just a single post I convinced the other judge who had just tried to call a halt to the fight for the battering Ice was taking to completely reverse his decision and say the other guy lost big time

Nobody is going to want to fight me now

[ICB]

Well im about to go watch a film with my girl but if you want a challenger Bilbo i wouldn't mind challenging you i know you play around alot but you are actually very good debater get back to me bro.

[brucelee]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Finally someone who understood the point thats exactly what i was trying to say El Gamo totally misunderstood what i was saying Bilbo.

Yup no worries buddy, I completely agree with Gamo that Duran is at least 15 places above Floyd in the all time p4p, he's possibly even top 5 ahead of Leonard and Hearns certainly some writers think so, it just wasn't relevant to the question at hand.

For me the single most significant slip up in the debate was bruce's admittance that Robinson completlely overshadowed everyone in his era, thus admitting that it wasn't as good and competitive as it is today.

He really could have scored points had he tried to argue that the 90's era was better, but he never did, he just got sidetracked trying to compare Floyd to Ray Robinson.

You cannot win a debate when you don't even answer the question that was the whole point of the debate, we're not politician's for heaven's sake :P

Bilbo,

Have you read my last post?I did address the topic directly. How could ICB won this fight when he was simply making some accusations about Robinson ducking Burley. HAve you noticed that at many points in the debate he had many claims that are not true?

Whoaa. Bilbo. Read the posts again. I'm willing to wait. Read my last post.

[Kev]

I'm sorry to intervene but this debate has gone off topic!! and awful statements are being made:

Mayweather better than Duran P4P(tip look at who Duran fought in each weight class then compare it to Mayweather)?? Mayweather's resume being compared to SRR at welterweight(just because YOU don't know the names of the fighters at WW does not mean they dont "stand out" etc)

Those are just some points I've come across that must minus points etc. Those are absurd shocking statements. Whoever the judge is needs to call a halt to this fight,Bruce has won this.

Wooah hang on a minute I'm also a judge in this thing and folks I can say now I'm going all Dick Flaherty here but I saw ICE winning this.

We have to remember what the original question was here and that is 'Is the current welterweight era the best ever?'

To my mind Bruce as eloquent as some of his rebutalls were never actually addressed this core question, preferring instead to launch a personal attack on Floyd Mayweather.

Ics got dragged off course as well but he managed to bring it back to the central question that was ultimately the whole point of the debate.

The question was is this era the best ever and brucelee never even directly answered the question.

Ice did, attempting to show that Ray Robinsons welterweight era had less big stars than the present and Bruce never succesfully countered that imo. In fact he virtually conceded as much when he said that Robinson was so dominant he overshadowed everybody else.

Reading through bruce's posts again and time and again he went back to challenging Floyd's resume, which just wasn't the question.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Ice was sloppy at times and he'll need to tighten up his debating defense if he's to hold on to his title in future bouts but I think by making more of an attempt to answer the original question he did enough to take the bout and retain his belt.

Finally someone who understood the point thats exactly what i was trying to say El Gamo totally misunderstood what i was saying Bilbo.

Yup no worries buddy, I completely agree with Gamo that Duran is at least 15 places above Floyd in the all time p4p, he's possibly even top 5 ahead of Leonard and Hearns certainly some writers think so, it just wasn't relevant to the question at hand.

For me the single most significant slip up in the debate was bruce's admittance that Robinson completlely overshadowed everyone in his era, thus admitting that it wasn't as good and competitive as it is today.

He really could have scored points had he tried to argue that the 90's era was better, but he never did, he just got sidetracked trying to compare Floyd to Ray Robinson.

You cannot win a debate when you don't even answer the question that was the whole point of the debate, we're not politician's for heaven's sake :P

Bilbo,

Have you read my last post?I did address the topic directly. How could ICB won this fight when he was simply making some accusations about Robinson ducking Burley. HAve you noticed that at many points in the debate he had many claims that are not true?

Whoaa. Bilbo. Read the posts again. I'm willing to wait. Read my last post.

Sorry buddy I liked your logic and you did out debate Ice at times but I just didn't feel it was too relevent. You kept going on about individual fighters such as Ray Robinson, Basillio and Duran and comparing them to Floyd which I didn't see relevant to the conversation.

Robinson is best remembered as a middleweight. You kept talking about how history remembers him, well the vast majority of people remember Sugar Ray for winning the world MIDDLEWEIGHT title 5 times. True he was a great welter weight but that isn't what's remembered about him. Watch any documentary on Robinson and his welterweight career will be glossed over in 5/10 minutes flat and then the rest of the show will be his megafights with Jake Lamotta, Bassilio, Turpin, Fulmer, Olsen etc, his welterweight era isn't remembered by popular history much at all.

You then mentioned Basillio again a fighter whose historically significant fights happened at middleweight also. Finally Roberto Duran, regarded as the greatest LIGHTWEIGHT of all time and a fighter who passed through all the divisions from lightweight to supermiddle.

As this debate was specifically about comparing the welterweight divisions I felt you were too off topic to win the debate.

Sorry buddy but I got to call it how I see it.

[brucelee]

I don't know if this will help but here's the transcript of my last post. Neither did ICB prove that today's era is better than before. Hope you have noticed that.

Mayweather fought legit Welterweight champion of the world Baldomir you can't expect him to do legendary things at Welterweight with only 3 fights at Welterweight but he has still fought quality opposition at Welterweight.


Whoever said Mayweather was as great as Robinson ?? your turning this debate into about Robinson vs Mayweather this debate is about Welterweight eras you keep going off topic Mayweather has only had 38 fights and has won 5 World titles in 5 different weight divisions thats something not even Robinson done and thats damn impressive in only 38 pro fights all i was saying is that Robinson's Welterweight era is not as strong as Welterweight era now and i have proven it isn't thats what im supposed to be debating about and so far i have proven it.

First and foremost, you're saying now that these alphabet titles matters? yeah 5 different weight divisions? Against a SLUGGISH Baldomir after he ducked Margarito? MAybe you haven't read my last comment regarding MAyweather ducking MArgarito. Let me repeat my story ( I added these lines after I posted my earlier rebuttal).

By the way, mayweather did duck Margarito. He rejected an $8Million dollar offer to fight margarito in 2006 and decided to go up to fight De LA hoya but ODLH postponed the fight to 2007 so he decided to fight Cory Spinks but it did not push through coz of Spinks mandatory defense. So he decided to fight Baldomir coz he was already in the bad light.

yeah, there maybe great fighters in the welterweight division now but does it automatically make the division better than before? I am focusing with Mayweather coz ,for you, he symbolizes the best boxer in this era.

What purpose does it serve to have great boxers when what you consider the best boxer is ducking another boxer? You mean, that will make this era better than before?

So Mayweather fought legit fighters? The question is how did he perform? Ohhh, by outpointing a SLUGGISH Baldomir. have you seen his fight with Judah? I've posted the video. Try to watch it again and boldly say his performance was impressive.

CAn you explain to me why the win of Mayweather over Shamba impressive? Williams had done it in the 4th round. Mayweather in 6th.

Mayweather can't really be expected to do some legendary thing in the welterweight coz he lacks the courage possessed by Robinson.

Well considering Mayweather has only been a Welterweight for not even 2 years that is unfair and has only had 3 fights at Welterweight i think thats totally unfair arguement but he did beat.

So mayweather had 3 fights in the welterweight since 2004 to 2007. How great is that? Boxers during the time of Robinson and Basilio were fighting an average of 9-10 fights a year.

Topic:"The Welterweight division, better now than ever?"

When you talk about an era being great, you don't only talk about the number of "supposed great fighters". You talk about the quality of fights between these fighters.

So what makes the welterweight division exciting now? Mayweather? To be specific, what makes it better than ever now? The fighters you have mentioned who may be forgotten like the welters of the 80's?

I say, an era is better if its fighters can be remembered well. Robinson, Basilio and Duran had proven it already. The fighters you have mentioned still needs to be tested with time. Robinson is acclaimed as the number 1 all time great by most boxing fans.

In your honest opinion, how will the fighters you mentioned hurdle the test of time? Will it be as great as how history remembers Robinson and Basilio?

[Violent Demise]

I give the victory to Ice.

[brucelee]

okay. congratulations Ice.I'll challenge you again maybe six months to one year from now. By that time, you will be mine for the picking.

I respect the decision of VD and Bilbo. HitmanDonny has not given his opinion yet. Since there are only 3 judges, you have the majority vote already.

It would be nice if VD can give his opinion on why ICB won the debate so that it will serve as a lesson for me.

[Julius Rain]

to both of you Ice and bruce. Bruce I knew ice will win but you did good mann. just regroup and you can be number contender again in no time. you ever want to move up in weight and challenge for the very top of it all the heavyweight division. I will be in mine throne waiting

[Julius Rain]

+128 bruce and ice I have to wait 24 karma is acting up again.

[brucelee]

thanks Bro. here's your +172

[brucelee]

i'll challenge you Julius this coming November. Be prepared.

[brucelee]

by the way, I am officially using the alias "THE CLOWN" as a punishment to myself because ICB won our debate.

[ICB]

ccs allround and you can have another shot soon Bruce im not sure who my next challenger will be.

[JT Rock]

If I was an official judge I would have to call this bout a draw, both debaters made excellent thought provoking responses and this was like the Gatti vs Ward 1 IMO, I think the president and Vice President should order an immediate rematch for these 2 and let them have at it again next week