Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[The Congressman]

This thread is deliberately made for Pac. So it belongs in Pac forum.

[CFH]

This thread is deliberately made for Pac. So it belongs in Pac forum.

I'm fine with it being where it currently is. As it has not been moved, I assume the other Mods are as well.

[JonesJrMayweather]

This thread is so stupid Manny isn't too small for 147, and he will prove that when he beats Miguel Cotto, the best WW in the world, at 147.

how's he going to do that by fight at 144?

[AdamGB]

This thread is deliberately made for Pac. So it belongs in Pac forum.

You belong in the pac forum...

[AdamGB]

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

makes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained.

154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.

147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.

Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.

oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Yeah... 'compromise'... when was the last time you heard of a fighter moving up in weight being weight drained?!...

Pac may have been the smaller man.... but Roach isn't stupid, he asked for ODLH to come down to a certain weight because he knew something that either most of us didn't know or most pac fans didn't WANT to know.

NOBODY is naturally 120 pounds etc, it takes a lot to get down to that... Before boiling down and drying up, Pac is probably naturally in the 140s anyway.

On paper and indeed when signing the contract I'm sure that meeting each other halfway or whatever seemed like a fair compromise... but the reality is that Pac didn't have to force himself down in weight (which is a massive strain on your system) whilst Oscar had to do it even more. How that is even I do not know.

The weights will have to have been negiotiated and the long and short of it is that Roach has managed to get the numbers right... he's not stupid and whilst he may sound like it when he speaks... he's not soft either.

If Roach couldn't have gotten the right numbers he would never have taken the fight in the first place. He's not dumb.

Manny has acheived a lot... he's a humble guy and a great boxer who has acheived a lot, but I can't give him too much credit when it gets to the point that he (or his team) want to try and drain bigger fighters, the majority of which are already fighting as low as they can go.

Stay at light Welter or properly move up to Welter... just don't try and masquarade as a Welterweight when we all know you're not one.

and yeah, Jones/Lewis is a good example... I've used haye/Wlad before to say the same thing as that is a current fight... but because haye is a disliked, cocky loud mouth I think the comparison perplexed certain people...

[Bilbo's Mom]

makes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained.

154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.

147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.

Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.

oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Yeah... 'compromise'... when was the last time you heard of a fighter moving up in weight being weight drained?!...

Pac may have been the smaller man.... but Roach isn't stupid, he asked for ODLH to come down to a certain weight because he knew something that either most of us didn't know or most pac fans didn't WANT to know.

NOBODY is naturally 120 pounds etc, it takes a lot to get down to that... Before boiling down and drying up, Pac is probably naturally in the 140s anyway.

On paper and indeed when signing the contract I'm sure that meeting each other halfway or whatever seemed like a fair compromise... but the reality is that Pac didn't have to force himself down in weight (which is a massive strain on your system) whilst Oscar had to do it even more. How that is even I do not know.

The weights will have to have been negiotiated and the long and short of it is that Roach has managed to get the numbers right... he's not stupid and whilst he may sound like it when he speaks... he's not soft either.

If Roach couldn't have gotten the right numbers he would never have taken the fight in the first place. He's not dumb.

Manny has acheived a lot... he's a humble guy and a great boxer who has acheived a lot, but I can't give him too much credit when it gets to the point that he (or his team) want to try and drain bigger fighters, the majority of which are already fighting as low as they can go.

Stay at light Welter or properly move up to Welter... just don't try and masquarade as a Welterweight when we all know you're not one.

and yeah, Jones/Lewis is a good example... I've used haye/Wlad before to say the same thing as that is a current fight... but because haye is a disliked, cocky loud mouth I think the comparison perplexed certain people...

haha I love the hypocrisy in your position.

So Oscar (with all the bartering power) was dragged down into a weight class he couldn't perform at and was totally depleted at 147 lbs.

Yet Manny should fight at 147 because he never weighed in the 120's he was just starving himself and drying up to make weight there, I guess to beat up on smaller guys.

Er ok right, so Manny was able to fight 20 lbs below his body weight without problem but none of these other guys can drop even 3 lbs, it would drain them too much.

If Manny walks around at 140 lbs then according to your own logic guys like Mosely and Cotto must walk around at 160 right?

So maybe THAT'S why a catchweight 'COMPROMISE' is necessary. To stop guys like Cotto and Mosely outweighing him by 20 lbs on the night of the fight.

He has been talking about a catcheweight of 144 lbs. That is only 2 lbs less than Cotto weighed in against Clottey, it's hardly going to see him like Oscar De La Hoya, who was 7 years older and had not fought at 147 for over 8 years and who weighed in on fight night, not at 147 but at 142! Let's not forget Oscar seriously fucked up his training that camp, he weighed 150 for Forbes and was ok.

A cacthweight is completely fair. Manny's ideal fighting weight now would be around 140 lbs, and by that I mean weigh in on the night of the fight at around 140-143 lbs

Cotto and Mosely if no catchweight was imposed could weigh in on the night of the fight well over 154 so outweigh him on the night of the fight by up to maybe 10 - 15 lbs.

That's 10 percent of Manny's bodyweight, a huge advantage to give up when the opponent also happens to be a world class elite fighter too.

There's a reason why Roy Jones gave up so much bodyweight to John Ruiz and not Lennox Lewis, it's because Ruiz is not 1/10th of the fighter Jones is. Manny is moving up and fighting the BEST, guys who are also elite fighters. I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving up the weight so much if the champ he was fighting was, like John Ruiz, a mediocre paper holding bum

[generalbulldog]

Manny came in weighing at 148 pounds against Hatton on fight night. I think this can be easily solved if there is a limit to rehydration. Let's say 157 on fight night is the limit, which would be fair compared to some of these welterweights who come in at 170 pounds on fight night like Clottey did against Corrales a few years ago.

[Bilbo's Mom]

Manny came in weighing at 148 pounds against Hatton on fight night. I think this can be easily solved if there is a limit to rehydration. Let's say 157 on fight night is the limit, which would be fair compared to some of these welterweights who come in at 170 pounds on fight night like Clottey did against Corrales a few years ago.

You can't put a limit on rehydration, firstly no such provision exists, the weigh in is two days or in some cases a day before the fight, there is no official second weigh in just before the fight.

Secondly if they tried to put a second weigh in just prior to the fight it would totally unworkable. You can't cancel a fight when the fighter is in his dressing room ready to tape up after he's already made the weigh in two days before!

Thirdly it would be dangerous to put a limit on rehydration as fighters need to be properly rehydrated before they fight.

A catchweight of 143 or 144 is clearly the fairest solution (and Manny may yet just fight at 147 anyway).

It puts a limit on his opponents whole training camp in a sense, as it means they can't bulk up. 3 lbs isn't going to drain them so they are a shell like some seem to think, it would just impose some limits on them and prevent them from using their natural size advantage in the ring.

It's completely simple logic.

If a 135 lb man fights a 147 lb man (we are talking fighting weights not walking around weights) of equal talent and ability the 147 lb man will win because he has around a 10 percent bodyweight advantage, that is a hell of a lot at these weights.

Therefore if the 147 lb man agrees to weigh 143 or 144 lbs the advantage of bodyweight is reduced. It becomes a fairer fight.

Nobody is talking about massive weight loss and being forced to fight in a division too light like Oscar did, we are talking about catchweight, an agreed weight between the two divisions its a perfect solution.

In relation to other people's argument. The weight division and titles are to all intents and purposes irelevent. Neither fighter is fighting to win a belt any more, they have already conquered the traditional divisions and won world titles. Now they are moving on beyond that to fight the best p4p fighters, other great fighters who fight in different weight classes. And that is the key, as they fight in different weight classes and its to the other's great advantage if one moves to the their weight class, they agree a catchweight and fight on nuetral ground.

The titles and weight classes no longer matter in this case because they are not fighting for them. Manny is the worlds best 140 lb fighter, Cotto is arguably the best 147 lb fighter so they battle, on neutral ground at 144.

It's an ideal solution, who cares if its for a world title or not, its no longer about that, these fighters are bigger than the belts now, they are fighting for p4p rights.

[The Congressman]

Bilbo's mom is kicking butt. Lol

[GAME]

All the greats in the history of the sport have moved up through the divisions and havent demanded that their opponents come in weight drained. I dont see whats so special about Pac.

[Bilbo's Mom]

All the greats in the history of the sport have moved up through the divisions and havent demanded that their opponents come in weight drained. I dont see whats so special about Pac.

Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?

Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.

[Dr. Steelhammer]

If Pac is not special, then what makes Marco Antonio Barrera then?

[Bilbo's Mom]

I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.

How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.

makes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained.

154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.

147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.

Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.

oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Why would Lewis have to drop to 210 lbs? Lewis weighed in around 240 lbs so why are you making him drop 30 lbs?

The proposed catchweight from Manny asks Cotto to drop 2 single lbs.

So are you saying if Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but only if Lewis dropped 2 lbs and weighed in at no more than 238 lbs you wouldn't have been impressed?

As they are bigger so lbs count less lets make it 5 lbs, double the amount Cotto has to drop. Lewis had to weigh in at no more than 235 lbs would you be complaining that Jones was a coward and a pussy?

Seriously now if Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis as long as Lewis agreed to come in under 235 lbs the fight would have meant to nothing to you and Jones was a pussy?

You guys are unreal

[GAME]

All the greats in the history of the sport have moved up through the divisions and havent demanded that their opponents come in weight drained. I dont see whats so special about Pac.

Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?

Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.

Ray Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.

Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.

The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT

[GAME]

If Pac is not special, then what makes Marco Antonio Barrera then?

Barrera beat undefeated fighters in their prime like Morales and Nas. Pac doesnt fight prime fighters

Its like saying Mcbride beat Tyson so he must be better