Israel at it again

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

So disagreeing with you is being a troll? Interesting.

I'm just pointing out there are two sides to every story. Before the blockade Hammas was bombing Israel and killing its citizens every single day. They were even sending in child suicide bombers. No other country on earth would allow terrorists to do that without retaliation and so Israel went into Gaza and sought to remove the threat.

The blockade was set up to try and prevent Hamas from rebuilding. It is a legitmate concern.

I'm not saying that Israel didn't fuck this up majorly but as it usually the case in life it is not a onesided argument. No nation on earth has greater reason to be paranoid and suspicious of their neighbours than Israel considering their history, both recent as well and historically. As a tiny nation surrounded by enemies on every side they obviously come down hard on attackers, in order to deter others from making similar threats.

It is a tragic situation all around.

You're not disagreeing, you posted almost exactly the same post the day before. I answered it, you ran away then came back the next day with almost exactly the same post. Here's my answer to your first post, you can answer it any time now :

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post883000

Hamas weren't killing Israelis every single day. There has never been any period since 1948 when the Palestinian death toll hasn't been significantly higher than the Israeli death toll. Suicide bombers are the result of a more than half a century of an illegal brutal military occupation, they're a reaction to aggression, not the initial aggression that starts the cycle of violence. The initial aggression is the occupation. After Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians out of 80% of their land in 1948 and herded the ones they didn't kill into refugee camps in the remaining 20% it took over 30 years for the Palestinians to start anything like organised military resistance, called "terrorism" by the Israelis. Up until then it had been mainly peaceful Ghandi-like protests which had exactly fuck all effect.


Hamas are zero threat to Israel and neither are any surrounding countries, countries that Israel regularly bombs and attacks, most recently Lebanon, Syria etc. Israel actually created Hamas in the first place as a tool to undermine and weken the PLO so that Israel could avoid any serious negotiations with them and play them off against Hamas to further Israel's long-term goal which is ownership of the remaining 20% of Palestine. That might sound like an absurd conspiracy theory but it's actually well-documented historical fact. Here's an article from the rabidly pro-Israel Wall Street Journal explaining about Israel promoting Hamas :

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ.com

If people only get the first paragraph of that article let me know and I'll post the whole thing.

And here's Israel's former Attorney General in an Israeli paper explaining Israel's tactics over the past decades :

We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day. ...........


The intifada is the Palestinian people's war of national liberation. Historical processes teach us that no nation is prepared to live under another's domination and that a suppressed people's war of national liberation will inevitably succeed. We understand this point but choose to ignore it. We are prepared to engage in confrontation to prevent an historical process, although we are well aware that this process is anchored in the moral justification behind every people's war of national liberation and behind its right to self-determination, and although we are well aware that this process will attain its inevitable goal. .................


Suffice it to recall the killing of little children fleeing for safety; the executions, without trial, of wanted persons who were not on their way to launch a terrorist act; and the encirclements, closures and roadblocks that have turned the lives of millions into a nightmare. Even if all these actions stem from our need to defend ourselves under an occupation's conditions, the occupation's non-existence would render them unnecessary. Thus, a black flag hovers over these actions.


The war's seventh day - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News



So after creating Hamas as part of a long-term strategy Israel are now claiming that it's Hamas who are a "threat" and an entity so powerful that Israel need to blockade them to prevent them arming, which is ridiculous. Hamas long ago agreed to end all violence if Israel would life the Gaza blockade (actually it's been going on in various forms for nine years) and allow rebuilding. Israel's answer to this is to ignore the proposition, claim Hamas are a threat who can't be negotiated with and who must be blockaded/isolated. It's bs, like I pointed out in the post you didn't answer Israel just want to fuck Gaza up, put them "on a diet" and incite more reaction so they can go continue the slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the remaining 20%. It's a crazy policy and doomed to failure and the end of Israel as moderate Israeli leaders admit but the guys running Israel are far more extreme than Hamas ever were and due to Israel's political system the crazies constantly hold the balance of power there.

[Kev]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

[Gandalf]

Just a few points.

The biggest threat to peace in the middle east is Israel, Bilbo. They are the nation with nuclear warheads and a trigger happy approach to things. And they are content in this position as they know they are leagues ahead of their neighbors, funded and armed up the nines by the states.

Failing to recognise that Israel has the right to exist is far different to being able to actually force it out of existance. Organisations do actually have a point on that front. Does it have a legitimate right to exist? I and many others would argue that at the theoretical level it really doesn't. But many of us accept that now it is there we might as well make the best of a bad situation.

I would like to know where this data comes from where conditions were worse under Egypt than the Israeli's. This is news to me, how much poorer can the Palestinians get? The conditions are plain awful.

Hamas might be a negative organisation historically, but they are the democratically elected representatives of the Gazan people. That should be recognised. Just because America and Israel didn't like it doesn't change the fact that this was a fair election result.

You say the flotilla was far from peaceful and that they aimed to break the blockade. To an extent this might be so, but international waters are just that. And the blockade is illegal. Israel has no right to close in the the Gazan's and make them beg for basic supplies. It is inhumane. I hope more ships try and do the same thing and challenge the blockade because our governments are a charade when it comes to the Israelis and their violations of every single kind of international law.

[Kirkland Laing]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

1.To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

3.Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

4.Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

5.This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

6.It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

[HattonTheHammer]

israel reminds me of a kid in school who used to get away with murder but all the teachers turned a blind eye because the kids he was doing these things too were just as bad as him

Eventually though he pushed his luck too far and the little c*nt got excluded

[Kev]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

1.To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

3.Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

4.Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

5.This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

6.It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

Ok well I'll just respond to the last one seeing as it's my silliest argument apparently.

Below is a video of the 'humanitarian aid peace workers' on the boat chanting death to Israel, and proclaiming the return of Muhammad and their desire for martyrdom, exactly in accordance with my claim that they see Israel as another Andalusia and a territory they must win back for Islam.

The real purpose of the Gaza flotilla Video

Here is an extended video showing more footage of the attack on the Israeli's as they boarded the ship, surrounded again by 'peaceful humanitarian aid workers'.

Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami

Below are some further links containing actual quotes from those involved, arguing that they also needed to transport weapons into Gaza to help them combat the Jewish infidels etc.

Video Clips of Gaza Flotilla Activists Chanting Songs of Martyrdom | Global Terrorism

Flotilla of Ideology: Violence and Humanitarian Aid - Grendel Report



It is a huge mess on both sides, but to pretend (or being ignorant of) the fact that this wasn't some huge propoganda mission for for the Islamists to gain support for their cause and help portray Hamas as victims to the evil Jews is just totally inaccurate.

The Islamic world cares about as much for the plight of the Gazan refugees as the Israeli's do.

They are merely pawns in a much larger religious and idealogical conflict.

Muslims want control of and destruction of Isreal. That is the goal, not the plight of the Gazan people.

[Kev]

This video is worth watching as well.

All you need to know about the Gaza propflot Video

You guys should look at both sides of the argument before coming to conclusion.

This is another interesting read here as well

http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/201...truth-and.html

Peter Hitchens has an excellent commentary on it here http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....e-outrage.html

Another good read here http://newsflavor.com/opinions/the-t...aza-flotillas/

I think I have provided ample support for my silly claims. I doubt you will read or watch any of it however,knowing yourself to be right and all.

[Kev]

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

Please watch this video. It's from the security cameras aboard the Mavi Marmara and shows the 'humanitarian aid workers', in a less than flattering light imo.

I'd very much like to hear your response to this Kirkland, and Miles.

This video also shows them hosing the IDF soldiers and throwing things at them as they board alongside

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnades.../1/B6sAEYpHF24

Oh and Melanie Phillips blog in the Spectator is very revealing also

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melanieph...r-ambush.thtml

I think it's clear the truth regarding this 'aid' mission is starting to come out now.

Ok this in an important document. A study conducted by the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs entitled 'Countering Radicalisation through Development Assistance'

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

This is important reading if you want to understand what is really going on here


It seems to me there is overwhelming evidence that this was a propaganda mission first and foremost. Their intention was not to deliver aid quietly to Gaza, but rather to storm the blockade, or ideally be prevented and force an attack to create headlines and turn support away from Israel. It was a planned, staged event.

I don't see how after looking at the evidence, and the video footage any unbiased person could conclude otherwise.

Now this has no bearing on whether the blockade is illegal, whether the initial occupation was illegal, whether the Palestinians are suffering. The answer to all these questions may well be yes. But the case for this being a propaganda fleet is incredibly strong and will likely reveal itself more fully over the coming weeks and months.

Of course I expect Kirkland to just respond with insults that's his way, but for those who are genuinely interested in the situation and exploring the full details these links and videos should definitely be paid attention to.

[Kirkland Laing]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

1.To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

3.Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

4.Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

5.This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

6.It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

Ok well I'll just respond to the last one seeing as it's my silliest argument apparently.

Below is a video of the 'humanitarian aid peace workers' on the boat chanting death to Israel, and proclaiming the return of Muhammad and their desire for martyrdom, exactly in accordance with my claim that they see Israel as another Andalusia and a territory they must win back for Islam.

The real purpose of the Gaza flotilla Video

Here is an extended video showing more footage of the attack on the Israeli's as they boarded the ship, surrounded again by 'peaceful humanitarian aid workers'.

Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami

Below are some further links containing actual quotes from those involved, arguing that they also needed to transport weapons into Gaza to help them combat the Jewish infidels etc.

Video Clips of Gaza Flotilla Activists Chanting Songs of Martyrdom | Global Terrorism

Flotilla of Ideology: Violence and Humanitarian Aid - Grendel Report



It is a huge mess on both sides, but to pretend (or being ignorant of) the fact that this wasn't some huge propoganda mission for for the Islamists to gain support for their cause and help portray Hamas as victims to the evil Jews is just totally inaccurate.

The Islamic world cares about as much for the plight of the Gazan refugees as the Israeli's do.

They are merely pawns in a much larger religious and idealogical conflict.

Muslims want control of and destruction of Isreal. That is the goal, not the plight of the Gazan people.

You need to answer the first six points too otherwise I'll take it that you're conceding all your original arguments.

As for the seventh :


The video doesn't say anything about death to Israel. There's a two second clip of one line from one song that mentions Jerusalem. It's selective editing like the two or three minutes of hours of tape israel have released of the operation when they took over the boats. They won't release the full tapes, they won't release the videos taken by the flotilla people which they claim show israel firing live ammunition before they even board the boat and they won't allow an independent inquiry. If Israel have nothing to hide why won't they do these things?

I'm not going to bother clicking a link to something called sheikyermaini.com. If they were writing wills because they might end up getting killed then they obviously had a lot of foresight, didn't they? It was announced today btw that one of the people Israel shot was an American citizen. He was shot four times in the head and once in the chest.

The last two links are just a. repeating Israeli propaganda and b. just repeating the first selectively edited video clip that you linked. Basically you've posted a load of bs.

This was a humanitarian convoy matey. The only people who think otherwise are the Israelis and various pro-Israel whackjob sites like the ones you linked to.

And you still haven't posted a link to where you got the nonsense you originally posted in point 7. Where did you get that shit from, hmmm?

[amat]

Just because countries don't have the potential to extinguish Israel doesn't mean they don't pose any threat at all to them. Kirkland, that's stupid. I'm not an expert on middle east politics and I won't pretend to be but I'm pretty sure there Al Queida could cease the United States from existing, does that mean they pose absolutely no threat to us?

So when an Israeli dies, that's just nothing? I hate all this stuff and honestly I haven't been on Israel's side since they bombarded the shit out of Lebanon civilians in response to a military attack but what you say just in your opening line is ridiculous.

[Gandalf]

Eh Amat? Israel's neighbors have no capacity to endanger Israel. Israel is currently a mini America. It's neighbors detest it for sure, but they all know that in the result of a serious attack upon Israel then they will get burned badly. Israel's military might is it's deterrent and also seemingly it's pass to do as it pleases.

Israel is and continues to be the second largest terrorist state in the world. Sure it matters when an Israeli dies, but it also matters when daily the world allows Israel to slowly ethnically cleanse an entire group of people. It's right that people go in there and say 'stop' because like I say no state is willing to do that. And America will veto EVERYTHING at the UN. It's an evil farce.

[Kev]

Eh Amat? Israel's neighbors have no capacity to endanger Israel. Israel is currently a mini America. It's neighbors detest it for sure, but they all know that in the result of a serious attack upon Israel then they will get burned badly. Israel's military might is it's deterrent and also seemingly it's pass to do as it pleases.

Israel is and continues to be the second largest terrorist state in the world. Sure it matters when an Israeli dies, but it also matters when daily the world allows Israel to slowly ethnically cleanse an entire group of people. It's right that people go in there and say 'stop' because like I say no state is willing to do that. And America will veto EVERYTHING at the UN. It's an evil farce.

Miles, I like you but you are nuts!

So when our brave troops go to Iraq and Afhganistan they put themselves in danger but Isreal, a country the size of Wales, surrounded by enemies on all sides many of whom whose foreign policy stance on Israel is it's annihilation pose no threat.

You and Kirkland are unbelievable.

The evidence that this flotilla was part of a carefully planned propaganda attack is overwhelming. You can argue the Jews have no right to be in Israel, you can argue the blockade is illegal, these are points I won't contest. But to argue that this was just an aid convoy, wanting to deliver aid to starving people and not looking for any trouble is ridiculous.

Have a look at all the video links I provided. Watch the humanitarians tool up with poles, knives, sling shot, putting on masks gearing themselves up for a battle. Watch them stabbing the first soldier as he touches down, and throw another overboard.

The lives lost were because the Israeli soldiers were fighting for their lives. They were completely ill prepared for what happened. Yes it was a terrible botched operation but those people didn't die because the Israeli's were triggy happy or wanting to massacre people. They died because it was the martyrdom outcome they wanted and they attacked the IDF soldiers forcing the events in order to create a propaganda victory like this.

[Gandalf]

Israel had no reason to attack a ship 50 km's away from Gaza and in international waters. How could anyone on the ship have attacked had the soldiers not entered the boat? You break into my home then of course I am going to try and defend myself. I have no doubt that most of the people on those boats were peaceful people with noble intentions. I've seen the videos and read as much as I can on the issue and I still come to the same conclusions. I do see the Israeli's with the propaganda machine in full force though and can see how some might be pulled that way with the slant being given. But it would really have been much better for Isael diplomatically just to allow the ships to dock and then they could have checked the unloading process. Any trouble initiated by the 'dangerous' aid workers could have been shown for what it was on land and in full view. Maybe then the Israeli's would have had ome justification for the embargo, but I don't think it would have come to a stand off unless the aid workers were provoked by the military.

In the last 24 hours I have been called Hitler, an arsehole and now I'm nuts! Yay!

[Kev]

Israel had no reason to attack a ship 50 km's away from Gaza and in international waters. How could anyone on the ship have attacked had the soldiers not entered the boat? You break into my home then of course I am going to try and defend myself. I have no doubt that most of the people on those boats were peaceful people with noble intentions. I've seen the videos and read as much as I can on the issue and I still come to the same conclusions. I do see the Israeli's with the propaganda machine in full force though and can see how some might be pulled that way with the slant being given. But it would really have been much better for Isael diplomatically just to allow the ships to dock and then they could have checked the unloading process. Any trouble initiated by the 'dangerous' aid workers could have been shown for what it was on land and in full view. Maybe then the Israeli's would have had ome justification for the embargo, but I don't think it would have come to a stand off unless the aid workers were provoked by the military.

In the last 24 hours I have been called Hitler, an arsehole and now I'm nuts! Yay!

Well the Cotto/Foreman thread was ......provocative mate! I think the situation over there is much more complex than you think. And the motives of the organisers of the flotilla are not nearly as noble as you think.

Also, I don't see why Israel are suddenly annoying you more than any other nation, it's not like they are even close to being the worst nation out there.

The Egyptians have been blockading Gaza for ages too, why no outcry at them?

Even the severity of the starvation problem in Palestine is up for debate, as is also the cause. There are many commentators who argue it is Hamas who are fucking up life for their people as much, if not more than the Israeli's.

It's an incredibly complex political situation.

This rise in anti-semitism makes me genuinely fearful. History has shown us countless times that there is an almost unnatural hatred and despisement of the Jewish race and that this could be the beginning of yet another anti-semitic pogrom.

The real battle is idealogical, between the Arab and Jewish worlds. Sadly the plight of the Gazan Palestinians is no more a concern to most of the Arabs organising this flotilla as it it is to the Israeli's.

It's not about delivering aid, it's about shaping public opinion.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, it makes everybody bad tempered and emotions run too high on both sides.

Let's chill and go back to Amir Khan bashing or discussing the right to offend through nationalistic clothing

[Gandalf]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.