Pernell Whitaker vs. Shane Mosley

[SweetPea]

Corrales was/is more skilled than Tito, and he faster p4p.

I agree with many of the other points you made in your post, but don't agree with this one at all. Corrales is a poor man's Tito. Not as skilled, not as powerful, not as good of a chin. Trinidad is/was better than Corrales in every way.

In certain ways. Ali wasn't exactly a technical masterpeice besides his footwork. Evander never got hit by the big hooks against Tyson that Ali took against Frazier.

Two things:
1. Frazier had a better left hook than Mike Tyson.
2. When we do these mythical matchups, we're always talking prime vs. prime. A prime Muhammad Ali doesn't get hit by those monster left hooks from Joe Frazier.

[Taeth]

I don't buy that for a second. Tyons had a picture perfect left hook which was quicker than JOe's and he could get in quicker because he had faster movement, and he set it up better. Technically they both had the best left hooks in the heavyweight division ever, but to say one was the better than the other is BS because Tyson's was perfect. Also Ali was hit by a hard left hook from Floyd Patterson. Any Ali would get tired from how relentless Frazier was persuing him. That was the hardest pressuring I've ever seen from a fighter, and no fighter that big can keep dancing away against a guy practically running in. Frazier would have hit any Ali because he was willing to take a shot so long as his hook got in. Also Corrales is faster than Tito, and boxes better. I agree with Trinidad being stronger, and having a better chin though he was down as much or more than Corrales in his career. Corrales has only been downed by top end fighters while no names have downed Trinidad.

[sweet_scientist]

First Mayweather had broken ribs during training before Castillo.

Really? Ok, I'll take your word for it. In any case, even without injuries Mayweather didn't do THAT much better in the rematch. It seemed to me he just had a better game plan. I.e. Avoid exchanges at all costs and don't give Castillo a chance to crowd you. If I remember correctly, Larry Merchant was saying something abotu the Tour de France that night.

Second Corley did not make Mayweather wobble on the ropes. He was against the ropes, but he didn't wobble at all. It stunned him a little much more because he wasn't expecting it than the punch hurting him.

Well it depends what your definition of wobble is. To me you don't have to be doing the Zab dance to be wobbled.

Also I think Baldomir is alot better htan some of those guys you mentioned, and that he would do well against quite a few of the fighters nowadays.

P4P wise, I don't think he's better than any of the champs Whitaker's fought, with the exception of maybe Jake Rodriguez and Alfredo Layne.

You say Mayweather hasn't faced anyone? Corrales was/is more skilled than Tito, and he faster p4p. Him, Casamayor and Castillo would have all done well in any lightweight era. Also it doesn't matter how much bigger Tito is than Mayweather if he can't hit him. Tito is so bad against movers he wouldn't stand chance against boxer who had far better feet than either ODLH or B-Hop.

Corrales is more skilled than Tito? Seriously, is that a joke?

Who are the movers that Tito has had trouble against? When DLH started 'moving', that's when Tito won rounds. He beat Whitaker, he beat Hector Camacho, he beat Oba Carr. Tito is no Carlos Baldomir, Floyd would have his hands full.

It is always who you face to prove if your great. Joe Louis never fought anybody that was good, and he is considered one of the top p4p ever fighters.

He's not considered one of the greatest of all time for nothing.

Billy Conn is an all time great. (As is Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano, even though he faced them when he was passed it.)

Other good fighters he fought and beat include Max Schmelling, Max Baer, J.H. Lewis, J.J. Walcott, Jimmy Bivins, amongst others.

Robinson fought tough guys, but he never fought a guy even close to on his skill level.

Oh dear me...I'll take it you've never seen Kid Gavilan? One of the best welterweights of all time and one of the most skilled fighters of all time.

The only reason he had tough fights is because he was comming into middleweight fights at 147 otherwise he would have killed Lamotta, and when he fought Fullmer and Basillio he was way past his prime or else he along with Hagler, Jones, Hopkins would have destroyed them as well.

Lamotta, Basilio and Fulmer were tough, tough guys. I don't think anyone 'destroys' them, even though I'd pick the guys you mentioned to beat them for sure.

Prime Mike Tyson is considered by many to be the best heavyweight ever, and he didn't have any real competition during his best.

Name me one respectable boxing authority that thinks that about Tyson.

And in any case, he DID have some competition. I wouldn't call Michael Spinks a nobody. I wouldn't call Larry Holmes that either, even though he was of course passed his best. Both those guys are all time greats.

Same with Lennox Lewis because Holyfield was already old, and much too small for him.

Small or not Holyfield was still decent at the time Lennox fought him. Lennox fought a lot of decent heavyweights. Nothing special, granted, but then again, who ranks Lewis that high up the heavyweight ranks anyway?

Roy Jones Jr. could have easily been considered top 10 p4p if he or the guys from Brittain at SMW would have been more willing to fight overseas.

He didn't take risks, and hence, he's not in my top 30 all time.

If Duran hadn't moved up with the exception of De Jesus he wouldn't have had the competition to be considered great, but luckily he did, and that's what Mayweather is doing as well right now.

Even if Duran didn't move up at all he;d still be considered great. DeJesus and Buchanan are both great fighters, both fighters I'd have in the top 100 all time. Better than the likes of Casamayor, Castillo and Corrales. Duran also faced and beat other good fighters like Marcel, Viruet, Lampkin and Mamby.

I've watched Nelson and I don't believe he is top 50 material. He is a great, but IMO he wasn't quite that good. I mean people have rated him over Hearns which is crap. So anyways I don't think you can really compare who the guys fought because most of the top p4p's ever except maybe the Leonard-Halger-Hearns-Duran, and the Ali-Frazier,Foreman era's were with one guy dominating everyone.

I think most great fighters have fought and beaten other greats. Some haven't, and get recognised as great due to other things, e.g. longevity, dominance over good opposition etc.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

lennox and holyfield ko's ali

Name one element of the sport of boxing where Evander Holyfield is superior to Ali.

Power, work rate, punching technique.

I'm not sure how many of Ali's old fight have compubox numbers available, but I seriously, seriously doubt that Evander Holyifeld threw more punches on average than Ali. There is no way.
I don't see any difference in power.
As far as punching technique, Ali had a far superior jab and also threw much better combinations. His style was unorthodox, so maybe that's what you're getting at, but Ali was a far more skilled offensive fighter than Holyfield.

Common P, what are you about?!
Right up till the mid 90's, Holyfield always put his punches together in twos and threes, with plenty of meat behind them and in regards to punching technique, Ali slapped alot of his punches, never mind just the jab.
Holyfields punches were generally tighter and harder.










Actually in regards to power, you must be a blind man typing in brail.

Let me put it this way: i think youd be more likely to see a Prime Holyfield drop Lennox than a prime Ali drop Lennox
The same goes for Bowe, Tyson and any other comparative hypothetical fights you could think of.












P.S dont even bother with the George Foreman comparison because we all know Foreman was gassed by the time he was KO'ed plus he paid much MUCH more attention to his guard as a fat man :P

[JonesJrMayweather]

i guess since everyone is only talking a bout holy not being able to beat ali..means that every one concedes that lennox knocks him the fuck out.....

overrated ali....self proclaimed greatest doesn't make it so....

[SweetPea]

Right up till the mid 90's, Holyfield always put his punches together in twos and threes,

And Ali in his prime could put them together in fours and fives

Ali slapped alot of his punches, never mind just the jab.

Yet he managed to slap the crap out of Sonny Liston to take the title, slapped Patterson until he was out on his feet, slapped George Foreman to the canvas, and slapped Joe Frazier's face to the point where his eyes were completely shut.

P.S dont even bother with the George Foreman comparison because we all know Foreman was gassed by the time he was KO'ed plus he paid much MUCH more attention to his guard as a fat man :P

If Foreman had fought the prime Ali, he would've been completely gassed by the 5th round instead of lasting until the 8th, because if he was fighting prime Ali, he would've been chasing around the fastest heavyweight in history.

i guess since everyone is only talking a bout holy not being able to beat ali..means that every one concedes that lennox knocks him the F*** out.....

overrated ali....self proclaimed greatest doesn't make it so....

Just don't include me with everyone, I think a prime Ali gives a boxing lesson to Holyfield, Lewis, or any other heavyweight for that matter.
Self-proclaimed greatest? It ain't bragging when you back it up....

P.S. How does a Pernell Whitaker-Shane Mosley thread turn into a Holyfield/Ali/Tyson debate. lol

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Right up till the mid 90's, Holyfield always put his punches together in twos and threes,

And Ali in his prime could put them together in fours and fives

Not for 3 minutes a round for 12 or 15 rounds though. (Without slapping/ pawing or what ever the fuck he was doing in the 1st fraizer fight )

Ali slapped alot of his punches, never mind just the jab.

Yet he managed to slap the crap out of Sonny Liston to take the title, slapped Patterson until he was out on his feet, slapped George Foreman to the canvas, and slapped Joe Frazier's face to the point where his eyes were completely shut.

[/quote]

Come on, Liston was past it, Paterson was a joke anyway, plus he was old and had a bad back
And Fraizer was never exactly hard to hit or mark up.

P.S dont even bother with the George Foreman comparison because we all know Foreman was gassed by the time he was KO'ed plus he paid much MUCH more attention to his guard as a fat man :P

If Foreman had fought the prime Ali, he would've been completely gassed by the 5th round instead of lasting until the 8th, because if he was fighting prime Ali, he would've been chasing around the fastest heavyweight in history.

[/quote]

Fair point. Damn you! :P

i guess since everyone is only talking a bout holy not being able to beat ali..means that every one concedes that lennox knocks him the F*** out.....

overrated ali....self proclaimed greatest doesn't make it so....

Just don't include me with everyone, I think a prime Ali gives a boxing lesson to Holyfield, Lewis, or any other heavyweight for that matter.
Self-proclaimed greatest? It ain't bragging when you back it up....

P.S. How does a Pernell Whitaker-Shane Mosley thread turn into a Holyfield/Ali/Tyson debate. lol
[/quote]

i dunno, i have this affect some times

[Taeth]

Joe Lous fought a blown up Billy Conn who gave him troubles, and Ezzard Charles was great at lower weights, but he never had the power to compete with a true heavyweight, and didn't even have all that much power at LHW, and his fight against ARchie Moore was special both of whom are ATG's, but not at heavyweight. The rest of the guys were fodder even Walcott who would be the best after the Aforementioned

Castillo-Mayweather wasn't close at all, and Castillo was given credit for about half of his punches iwth ones that never connected, and I watched at slow mo to make sure for 4-5 rounds and he would land 3 shots, and they would give him 8.

About Kid Gavilan. I think he's overrated I've seen a few of his fights, and I've been terribly impressed with him. He's good, but not an ATG. When I first saw Azumah Nelson a few days ago again I knew instantly he was good, but the same thing hasn't happened with Gavilan.

Prime Mike Tyson didn't have real competition thats why Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes both got KO'ed sure they were big names, but they weren't really competition, and nothing compared what Mayweather has faced, at least Holmes that point in his career wasn't.

Who ranks Lewis high anyway? The rest of the non-american world. He gives Ali, Holmes, and prime Tyson fits at least, and beats Marciano, Frazier, Holyfield, and Louis on their best day. When Lewis was about 27-28 he was very fast, powerful, and skilled not to mention 6'5 and 230pounds.

[Taeth]

Also I guarrantee RJJ would beat 25 of the 29 guys you have ahead of him p4p everytime. There is a very small fraction of ATG's that would give RJJ troubles in the least.

Where do you get De Jesus or Buchanan being better than Castillo, Corrales, and Casamayor? That just seems like opinion without foundation to me.

ODLH, B-Hop, and Winky all beat Trinidad with three different types of foot movement, but they all kept him from comming forward how he likes to by moving to his right. ODLH moved the whole fight he just didn't run until the end, and theres a difference. People say PBF is running yet he is able to counter at any moment, and that's different.

About Corrales-Trinidad. Corrales fought a much better mover in Mayweather gave him troubles, Mayweather is way faster p4p, and way smarter than either B-Hop at that point or ODLH at any point. Corrales was able to box with Casamayor who is a very, very good boxer, and he was able to fight on the inside with Castillo who is a far better inside fighter than Vargas, or anyone else who fought Trinidad on the inside. Trinidad had illegal wraps, and since not being able to use them he hasn't had all that much power at all in last few fights. Hell ODLH was able to knock down Mayorga with a head shot while Trinidad had to go to the body to ko him. Corrales has always shown top notch power, and half the time he was comming in totally drained.