60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[Trainer Monkey]

And heavier. Wow that didn't take long did it.

And slower,and less powerful,and less skilled by far and away
Wow that didnt take long did it

[DaxxKahn]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis

Etc.

Oh do please,I like Holmes,but the very best Holmes there ever was couldnt knock him out even though he allready had Parkinsons
And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

Tale of tape
Muhammad Ali
Height 6 foot 2
Reach 80 inches
Weight approx 220.

Lennox Lewis
Height: 6 foot 5
Reach: 85 inches
Weight: approx 255

Nuff said.

Spot on as usual Eagle. Like comparing Jessie Owens to Carl Lewis.

Really
Oliver Mccall 6'2
Hasim Rahman 6'2
What do they both have in common other then being slower and less powerful then Ali,take your time,it will come to you

Less powerful?

Rahman was a big puncher then with like 27 or 28 ko's out of 33 or 34 bouts...he still has like 35 or 36 out of 44 or 45 wins

McCall was a fairly decent puncher at the time himself....

Ali was never a power puncher or over hard hitter don't know where you got the power from

[Trainer Monkey]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis

Etc.

Oh do please,I like Holmes,but the very best Holmes there ever was couldnt knock him out even though he allready had Parkinsons
And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

Tale of tape
Muhammad Ali
Height 6 foot 2
Reach 80 inches
Weight approx 220.

Lennox Lewis
Height: 6 foot 5
Reach: 85 inches
Weight: approx 255

Nuff said.

Spot on as usual Eagle. Like comparing Jessie Owens to Carl Lewis.

Really
Oliver Mccall 6'2
Hasim Rahman 6'2
What do they both have in common other then being slower and less powerful then Ali,take your time,it will come to you

Less powerful?

Rahman was a big puncher then with like 27 or 28 ko's out of 33 or 34 bouts...he still has like 35 or 36 out of 44 or 45 wins

McCall was a fairly decent puncher at the time himself....

Ali was never a power puncher or over hard hitter don't know where you got the power from

Really,thats of course why he would just end fights at will in the 60's

[DaxxKahn]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis

Etc.

Oh do please,I like Holmes,but the very best Holmes there ever was couldnt knock him out even though he allready had Parkinsons
And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

Tale of tape
Muhammad Ali
Height 6 foot 2
Reach 80 inches
Weight approx 220.

Lennox Lewis
Height: 6 foot 5
Reach: 85 inches
Weight: approx 255

Nuff said.

Spot on as usual Eagle. Like comparing Jessie Owens to Carl Lewis.

Really
Oliver Mccall 6'2
Hasim Rahman 6'2
What do they both have in common other then being slower and less powerful then Ali,take your time,it will come to you

Less powerful?

Rahman was a big puncher then with like 27 or 28 ko's out of 33 or 34 bouts...he still has like 35 or 36 out of 44 or 45 wins

McCall was a fairly decent puncher at the time himself....

Ali was never a power puncher or over hard hitter don't know where you got the power from

Really,thats of course why he would just end fights at will in the 60's

Ali didn't hit like Chris Byrd but he was not what you would call a KO artist...his KO's came from speed and accumulation not sheer power like your trying to make it sound

[Trainer Monkey]

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

[ICB]

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

[donnydarkoIRL]

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

Ice Patterson wasn't a pro at other weights.
And his chin wasn't bad at all. Just Liston decimated it. (Johannson too in the first fight)

[ICB]

He was in the 60's
Admittably in 70's he had to wear guys down more,but thats not the original question.
In the 60's he could just turn guys off
He almost allways did it the same way too,everyone knew it was coming, catch you coming in with the jab,and step and hook or cross
But there was nothing anyone could do about it,click,your done

Yea and him playing against Cooper and Jones almost cost him the fights. His opposition except for old Liston who took a dive in 2nd fight and was nearly 40, and Patterson who was good fighter at lower weights but didn't have chin at Heavyweight. Other than that his fights in 60s were against mediocre opposition.

Ice Patterson wasn't a pro at other weights.
And his chin wasn't bad at all. Just Liston decimated it. (Johannson too in the first fight)

Patterson has the record for being the most knocked down Heavyweight World Champion of all time as i recall ?? so his chin wasn't that good.

He had the skills at Heavyweight but not the chin, plus he was far too small.

[donnydarkoIRL]

I think youy yourself raised the most important counterpoint there.

Patterson was the most knocked down heavyweight champ. But you mentioned the reson, because he was so small. It wasn't that he had a bad chin, a guy with a bad chin would get knocked out. Patterson was merely knocked over and got right back up.

His take on it was "Sure I was the most knockd down Heavyweight cahmp, but I was also the haevyweight champ that got up the most."

[ICB]

I think youy yourself raised the most important counterpoint there.

Patterson was the most knocked down heavyweight champ. But you mentioned the reson, because he was so small. It wasn't that he had a bad chin, a guy with a bad chin would get knocked out. Patterson was merely knocked over and got right back up.

His take on it was "Sure I was the most knockd down Heavyweight cahmp, but I was also the haevyweight champ that got up the most."

Well thats what i meant Donny he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight. Patterson did have massive heart though you can't argue with that.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Agreed on his heart.

For me getting Ko'd is a sign oif bad chin rather than getting KD.

I owed you a CC aswell.

[The Fightfan]

Another thing that cracks me up.Where does everyone get this notion that Ali was soo powerful.I mean the guy could hit you a thousand times a people wouldn't go down.Out of 61 fights he had what 36 K.O. They only fighter at the elite with type of percentage is Byrd.

[JT Rock]

To me TM's argument makes no sense when he says 60's ALi was a better puncher than the 70's version, isint power the last thing to go in a fighter?

All that tells me is that his quality of opposition got better hence the dropoff

[Trainer Monkey]

To me TM's argument makes no sense when he says 60's ALi was a better puncher than the 70's version, isint power the last thing to go in a fighter?

All that tells me is that his quality of opposition got better hence the dropoff

It makes total sense if you think about it
Throw a punch at your absolute range
Now take a half a step in
Which one do you think would hurt more
Ali in the 70's knew his hand speed wasnt what it was,so he tried to keep out and snipe,or block ,until he felt a guy was worn down enough to go
Ali in the 60's was arrogant enough to just go after you when he wanted you down
Though I do agree with Ice,he screwed around too much in the 60's he was just good enough to get away with it
You watch him in any fight back then and its frustraiting to know he could just end this whenever he felt like it,he's just goofing off,and getting in sparring rounds,it just happens to be for the undisputed heavyweight title of the world.
In the 70's in his 30's he had to work for things,and outhink people,in alot of ways Wepner was the best thing that could have happened to him,suddenly he realised,he wasnt the same fighter that dropped Foley as a favour

[donnydarkoIRL]

I owed you CC7 JT