Someone explain this to me (Floyd/Hatton weight issue)

[bambamdaddio]

I don't believe Manfredy had hurt Mayweather enough to close the show even if he jumped on him, did he hurt Mayweather? Yes but not as bad as people have been claiming lately. But that has nothing to do with this argument.
At this point I am just trying to understand your argument. You are saying that by Hatton fighting Mayweather at 140 he would have better luck and that would potentially change the outcome of the fight. Is that correct?

What both of us are saying,is he would have taken his conditioning more seriously,Ricky is a crack the whip sort of fighter,and alot of that whip is holding his weight over his head. He bloats easy,and if you let him,he'll try to cheat down his weight using Sauna suits over training,he's more likely to train harder,if you need him in at a lighter weight then a greater one.

OK..........um...........again just trying to make sure I understand this argument and how it applies to the topic of the thread here, so bear with me. You are saying that he would have trained harder and been more conditioned and faster at 140, and that would have changed the outcome of the Mayweather fight because it would have improved his luck?

No he is saying its quite probable that Hatton gives a better account of himself at his best & more disciplined weight division... which is what the thread asked us to do just offer up an explanation .. one that Ive been plus repped for by the thread writer for offering a reasonable explanartion ...even if he dont agree ...

Who agrees or not dont matter all Im doing is trying to offer up a reasonable answer to the question asked..

Agree with me or dont ... I really dont care but Ive so far caused 5 pages of debate for bea\n flicker gainig loadsa view points some that agree with me some that dont ....

So to me its job done ...I aint gonna please you all with my posts all the time just like you all aint gonna please me ... thats life & thats debate

[bambamdaddio]

I havent read any of the replies to this thread so i appologise if this has been said already...

I know opposing fighters weights can vary greatly from weigh-in to fight night but the weight itself could not of been an issue here as Both guys must of been weighing the same that night.

Maybe it was a case of Floyd being bigger than Ricky thought. It is apparent that Floyds frame had grown over the years and the mistake could have been made that although Ricky was moving up in weight, he assumed he was facing a naturally smaller man.

I personally dont like to call Floyd a naturally smaller man. Its akin to me saying Ricky Hatton is a natural Middleweight becuase he consumes copious amounts of pies and guiness in between fights

Floyd was, at one point, STARVING himself to malke 130. Fact.

If both guys kept in resonable shape im sure there'd only be a half-stone differential in weight.

Never the less, Knowledge is power....
I believe the real issue is that Floyd had some key experience prior to Hatton in beating Baldomir and Dela Hoya, who were so much bigger in the ring than Hatton.

Dela Hoya Specifically because not only was he bigger but he was, beleive it or not, the 1st guy in a championship fight (maybe any fight) to have a bigger reach than Floyd.

Also Floyd had the knowledge of Hatton's last visit up at WW

Hatton would of stod a much bigger chance of winning IF the fight was made at 140 ONLY when Floyd was campainging at that weight. Floyd wouldn't of been so comfortable and Hattons pressure would of been more telling but Floyd would probably still come through just like he did with Castillo (albeit over 24 rounds)

Godd posting bud !!!

[ono]

Ok i'll have a go.....

Let's get this out of the way first.....Hatton wouldn't beat Mayweather at any weight. And this might not apply directly to Hatton-Mayweather but....


Sometimes a fighter who starts off at a much lower weight can actually be malnutritioned. Not in the sense that millions of people are in third world countries....just in a boxing sense.

The amount of carbohydrates required to enable you to go through a training camp for a period of 10-12 weeks is extortionate. Now if a fighter is training for 3 hours a day and not consuming enough carbohydrates, he will lose a lot of muscle mass......or he will not develop much...if any muscle mass if he is very light to begin with. It could be that Mayweather never previously gave himself the chance to fill out at a more natural weight....because he was under-eating and comfortable at his existing weight. This is something that does happen to fighters....especially those who are very conscious about making weight.

What this fighter will find is, that when he comes to moving up in weight, he finds the transition really easy as an increase in carbohydrate and protein allows him to easily add muscle mass.

Now the advantage this fighter will now possess at is new found weight, will likely be core strength.....especially over a fighter who is definitely fighting above his natural weight. An example of this would be at how Mayweather was stronger than Hatton on the inside.

Now people are going to say that Hatton's natural weight is well over 147. That's correct but how much of that is lean mass? Hardly any. It's practically all fat. So he'll have no advantage.

Anybody remember how much bigger Mayweather looked at the weigh in?

Anyway this theory might not have applied to this fight....because we don't know the ins and outs of Mayweather's training camp/diet etc...

Anyway it comes down to core strength, and just because a fighter was successful at a much lower weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that was his natural weight.

Like i say, may not have been the case with Floyd Mayweather. I'm pretty sure it's the case with Manny though. Maybe we'll see on dec 6th.

[ono]

Sorry for the double post. Not sure why it did that.

[Beanflicker]

Rickys problem was arrogance, he looked at Floyd and saw a smaller fighter, he fought like he was the stranger man, he didnt try and box and rushed in to get countered, I see him being more effective in a rematch but I think hed still get caught too often and probably stopped.

I think trying to box Mayweather would have been idiotic on his part given Floyd's huge advantage in boxing skill, speed and reach.

Ricky fought the right fight, he just fought a guy who had an answer to every question Ricky asked of him.

I gained a lot of respect for Ricky in this fight because I thought Floyd would completely dominate him, but Ricky made it fairly compeditive and made Floyd very uneasy at times, which not a lot of people do.

[bambamdaddio]

Sorry for the double post. Not sure why it did that.

Its ok bud .. interesting post tho ... Ive worked in the fitness industry for the last 20 years or so as an adviser, presenter, course tutor, personal trainer, & Gym manager, used to box a little but did a lot of Judo competiton & suffered re the weight as I weighed 82 kgs, and I know who ever I fought in the under 86 kgs was always a lot harde than when I fought in the under 78 kgs wher I really had to work & train hard to make the weight but I was so much sharper and with so much more stamina as well as being less sluggish too

[bambamdaddio]

Rickys problem was arrogance, he looked at Floyd and saw a smaller fighter, he fought like he was the stranger man, he didnt try and box and rushed in to get countered, I see him being more effective in a rematch but I think hed still get caught too often and probably stopped.

I think trying to box Mayweather would have been idiotic on his part given Floyd's huge advantage in boxing skill, speed and reach.

Ricky fought the right fight, he just fought a guy who had an answer to every question Ricky asked of him.

I gained a lot of respect for Ricky in this fight because I thought Floyd would completely dominate him, but Ricky made it fairly compeditive and made Floyd very uneasy at times, which not a lot of people do.

Yet to me it was one sided really .. partly because of Cortez tho..

[Althugz]

OK bud, here goes, for starters Floyd WILL always beat Hatton, but would have a tougher time at lite welter why ... its dead simple,

Because the mental attitude Hatton develops at lite welter is a million miles away from the one he has at welter.....

Why?

Because Hatton has to train like a b*****d to get down to that weight, & everything has to be spot on A plus or he cant make the weight ... no odd pints of guiness or meat pies...he trains to such an extent that he becomes sharper and less sluggish, he becomes lean as fk, strong mean & hard because of what he has had to go thru....at lite welter he cant cut one corner ... not one ...but he can at welter & has in the past ...

He would still get beat by Floyd at this weight ... but dont make the mistake of thinking this would be exactly the same because it wouldnt, yes he would still prob lose, but you sure as hell would see a different fight from Hatton at LW....

& for the record Im a massive fan of both & picked Hatton to get stopped after 8 rounds in there previous dust up at Welter...

I've read all your responses since this post and I still can't understand how if you know you're fighting the best pound for pound fighter in the world that the weight is going to effect your training and dedication.

If you can't cut out the meat pies and the guiness for a fight like this then he shouldn't have took the fight.

If he didn't think he would be able to beat Floyd at 147 then he shouldn't have took the fight (we all know that both he and Billy Graham said that Floyd looked small compared to Ricky before the fight and that he would be in trouble because of it).

So I find it funny that after Ricky and Billy Graham both squashed the weight arguement before the fight even begun, people now turn 180 and say it was 'because of the weight, Ricky wasn't hungry enough'.

Come on now! Ricky even said himself that he was training as though he was fighting for a light welterweight contest so that arguement is complete rubbish imo and doesn't wash with me. Good effort though.

[Beanflicker]

Well Cortez was just enforcing the rules, if you have a reputation for doing something then the refs can only be expected tto watch out for it.

But on the subject of Cortez, after rewatching the fight a few days ago, I noticed Ricky was landing a lot of shots to the back of Floyd's head that weren't called, so I don't think it was biased reffing.

[Althugz]

Ok i'll have a go.....

Let's get this out of the way first.....Hatton wouldn't beat Mayweather at any weight. And this might not apply directly to Hatton-Mayweather but....


Sometimes a fighter who starts off at a much lower weight can actually be malnutritioned. Not in the sense that millions of people are in third world countries....just in a boxing sense.

The amount of carbohydrates required to enable you to go through a training camp for a period of 10-12 weeks is extortionate. Now if a fighter is training for 3 hours a day and not consuming enough carbohydrates, he will lose a lot of muscle mass......or he will not develop much...if any muscle mass if he is very light to begin with. It could be that Mayweather never previously gave himself the chance to fill out at a more natural weight....because he was under-eating and comfortable at his existing weight. This is something that does happen to fighters....especially those who are very conscious about making weight.

What this fighter will find is, that when he comes to moving up in weight, he finds the transition really easy as an increase in carbohydrate and protein allows him to easily add muscle mass.

Now the advantage this fighter will now possess at is new found weight, will likely be core strength.....especially over a fighter who is definitely fighting above his natural weight. An example of this would be at how Mayweather was stronger than Hatton on the inside.

Now people are going to say that Hatton's natural weight is well over 147. That's correct but how much of that is lean mass? Hardly any. It's practically all fat. So he'll have no advantage.

Anybody remember how much bigger Mayweather looked at the weigh in?

Anyway this theory might not have applied to this fight....because we don't know the ins and outs of Mayweather's training camp/diet etc...

Anyway it comes down to core strength, and just because a fighter was successful at a much lower weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that was his natural weight.

Like i say, may not have been the case with Floyd Mayweather. I'm pretty sure it's the case with Manny though. Maybe we'll see on dec 6th.

That is quite interesting, I agree.

Not sure that you'd develop core strength purely through eating a diet higher in protein and carbohydrates.

You'd have to factor in some core training as well which Floyds seems to be fantastic. Havn't seen much of Ricky's core regimen ( not to say it isn't good)

Also if you are draining yourself to be at a lower weight then all of your muscles will probably be weaker, including your core muscles, than they would be if you were at your optimum weight.

[bambamdaddio]

Well Cortez was just enforcing the rules, if you have a reputation for doing something then the refs can only be expected tto watch out for it.

But on the subject of Cortez, after rewatching the fight a few days ago, I noticed Ricky was landing a lot of shots to the back of Floyd's head that weren't called, so I don't think it was biased reffing.

Enforcing the rules .... what like he did re Calzaghe Hopkins, working on that basis then Hopkins shoulda been disqualified then shouldnt he..

Sorry I digress ..

[ono]

Ok i'll have a go.....

Let's get this out of the way first.....Hatton wouldn't beat Mayweather at any weight. And this might not apply directly to Hatton-Mayweather but....


Sometimes a fighter who starts off at a much lower weight can actually be malnutritioned. Not in the sense that millions of people are in third world countries....just in a boxing sense.

The amount of carbohydrates required to enable you to go through a training camp for a period of 10-12 weeks is extortionate. Now if a fighter is training for 3 hours a day and not consuming enough carbohydrates, he will lose a lot of muscle mass......or he will not develop much...if any muscle mass if he is very light to begin with. It could be that Mayweather never previously gave himself the chance to fill out at a more natural weight....because he was under-eating and comfortable at his existing weight. This is something that does happen to fighters....especially those who are very conscious about making weight.

What this fighter will find is, that when he comes to moving up in weight, he finds the transition really easy as an increase in carbohydrate and protein allows him to easily add muscle mass.

Now the advantage this fighter will now possess at is new found weight, will likely be core strength.....especially over a fighter who is definitely fighting above his natural weight. An example of this would be at how Mayweather was stronger than Hatton on the inside.

Now people are going to say that Hatton's natural weight is well over 147. That's correct but how much of that is lean mass? Hardly any. It's practically all fat. So he'll have no advantage.

Anybody remember how much bigger Mayweather looked at the weigh in?

Anyway this theory might not have applied to this fight....because we don't know the ins and outs of Mayweather's training camp/diet etc...

Anyway it comes down to core strength, and just because a fighter was successful at a much lower weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that was his natural weight.

Like i say, may not have been the case with Floyd Mayweather. I'm pretty sure it's the case with Manny though. Maybe we'll see on dec 6th.

That is quite interesting, I agree.

Not sure that you'd develop core strength purely through eating a diet higher in protein and carbohydrates.

You'd have to factor in some core training as well which Floyds seems to be fantastic. Havn't seen much of Ricky's core regimen ( not to say it isn't good)

Also if you are draining yourself to be at a lower weight then all of your muscles will probably be weaker, including your core muscles, than they would be if you were at your optimum weight.

You don't. That's my point. It could be that he is naturally a lot bigger than what we all think. So once he fights at the heavier weights, his core stength is pretty much already there.....because he's fighting at a natural weight. Wheras Ricky has to consciously weight-train, specifically to add the 7lb of muscle.

What you've put in bold is pretty much what i'm thinking....altho i don't know how much Floyd drained himself at 130/135.

[bambamdaddio]

Ok i'll have a go.....

Let's get this out of the way first.....Hatton wouldn't beat Mayweather at any weight. And this might not apply directly to Hatton-Mayweather but....


Sometimes a fighter who starts off at a much lower weight can actually be malnutritioned. Not in the sense that millions of people are in third world countries....just in a boxing sense.

The amount of carbohydrates required to enable you to go through a training camp for a period of 10-12 weeks is extortionate. Now if a fighter is training for 3 hours a day and not consuming enough carbohydrates, he will lose a lot of muscle mass......or he will not develop much...if any muscle mass if he is very light to begin with. It could be that Mayweather never previously gave himself the chance to fill out at a more natural weight....because he was under-eating and comfortable at his existing weight. This is something that does happen to fighters....especially those who are very conscious about making weight.

What this fighter will find is, that when he comes to moving up in weight, he finds the transition really easy as an increase in carbohydrate and protein allows him to easily add muscle mass.

Now the advantage this fighter will now possess at is new found weight, will likely be core strength.....especially over a fighter who is definitely fighting above his natural weight. An example of this would be at how Mayweather was stronger than Hatton on the inside.

Now people are going to say that Hatton's natural weight is well over 147. That's correct but how much of that is lean mass? Hardly any. It's practically all fat. So he'll have no advantage.

Anybody remember how much bigger Mayweather looked at the weigh in?

Anyway this theory might not have applied to this fight....because we don't know the ins and outs of Mayweather's training camp/diet etc...

Anyway it comes down to core strength, and just because a fighter was successful at a much lower weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that was his natural weight.

Like i say, may not have been the case with Floyd Mayweather. I'm pretty sure it's the case with Manny though. Maybe we'll see on dec 6th.

That is quite interesting, I agree.

Not sure that you'd develop core strength purely through eating a diet higher in protein and carbohydrates.

You'd have to factor in some core training as well which Floyds seems to be fantastic. Havn't seen much of Ricky's core regimen ( not to say it isn't good)

Also if you are draining yourself to be at a lower weight then all of your muscles will probably be weaker, including your core muscles, than they would be if you were at your optimum weight.

Who said anything about draining... its strict regime... correct trainig & nutrition ...if Hatton strips the fat & excess fluid down through a combo of decent aerobic & anaerobic training .. whats he left with .. lean muscle, lean muscle that dont have to carry the extra fat around..

The carbs of the diet would be used as training fuel essentially so there would be no excess gained or stored,,,

[ono]

Ok i'll have a go.....

Let's get this out of the way first.....Hatton wouldn't beat Mayweather at any weight. And this might not apply directly to Hatton-Mayweather but....


Sometimes a fighter who starts off at a much lower weight can actually be malnutritioned. Not in the sense that millions of people are in third world countries....just in a boxing sense.

The amount of carbohydrates required to enable you to go through a training camp for a period of 10-12 weeks is extortionate. Now if a fighter is training for 3 hours a day and not consuming enough carbohydrates, he will lose a lot of muscle mass......or he will not develop much...if any muscle mass if he is very light to begin with. It could be that Mayweather never previously gave himself the chance to fill out at a more natural weight....because he was under-eating and comfortable at his existing weight. This is something that does happen to fighters....especially those who are very conscious about making weight.

What this fighter will find is, that when he comes to moving up in weight, he finds the transition really easy as an increase in carbohydrate and protein allows him to easily add muscle mass.

Now the advantage this fighter will now possess at is new found weight, will likely be core strength.....especially over a fighter who is definitely fighting above his natural weight. An example of this would be at how Mayweather was stronger than Hatton on the inside.

Now people are going to say that Hatton's natural weight is well over 147. That's correct but how much of that is lean mass? Hardly any. It's practically all fat. So he'll have no advantage.

Anybody remember how much bigger Mayweather looked at the weigh in?

Anyway this theory might not have applied to this fight....because we don't know the ins and outs of Mayweather's training camp/diet etc...

Anyway it comes down to core strength, and just because a fighter was successful at a much lower weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that was his natural weight.

Like i say, may not have been the case with Floyd Mayweather. I'm pretty sure it's the case with Manny though. Maybe we'll see on dec 6th.

That is quite interesting, I agree.

Not sure that you'd develop core strength purely through eating a diet higher in protein and carbohydrates.

You'd have to factor in some core training as well which Floyds seems to be fantastic. Havn't seen much of Ricky's core regimen ( not to say it isn't good)

Also if you are draining yourself to be at a lower weight then all of your muscles will probably be weaker, including your core muscles, than they would be if you were at your optimum weight.

Who said anything about draining... its strict regime... correct trainig & nutrition ...if Hatton strips the fat & excess fluid down through a combo of decent aerobic & anaerobic training .. whats he left with .. lean muscle, lean muscle that dont have to carry the extra fat around..

The carbs of the diet would be used as training fuel essentially so there would be no excess gained or stored,,,

Sorry, i'm not understanding your point. I don't mean that in a rude way.....i'm just a little confused by your post. I think he was talking about Floyd being weight-drained.....not Ricky.

[bambamdaddio]

Maybe Hatton just feels stronger fitter better at lw or why fight a career there if that aint the case then ?