UFO's & Ghosts

[Kev]

The exsistance of atleast one other "intelligent" species of life greatly dimenishes the importance of human exsistance from a universal perspective. I think its statitically (i don't put a lot of stock in numbers because as with religion and words, these too were made to help man understand his world and there's some numbers that have to exist that technically, due to our system, can't be accurately represented) impossible that we are the only species of "intelligent" life in the universe when you bring into perspect the scale of the whole thing. A lot of scientists are too focused on numbers and a lot of religious people are too focused on a belief system handed down to them by their ancestors. The answer is somewhere in the middle and its very VERY confusing.

If there was this amazing process where "god" created the first humans than wouldn't it be common place that everyone agreed on the exact same thing? I mean they'd have visual proof that a lot of us today do not. When was the first bible written? Egyptians had the ability to write on things well into the bc years yet they believed that there were many gods. How can you say that a poly/monotheist belief system is wrong when you yourself have never seen the very thing you believe in?

I don't think religion or any other inanimate object is to blame for the actions of people. People have free will they can choose whether to hate or not. It is true that we could all look the same (same skin, eye, and hair color as well as the same height and weight for just about everyone) and we would still find a way to hate each other over "differences". Humans are pattern seeking animals and are developed to think in terms of ratio instead of pure value (the difference between 1 and 4 is the same as the difference between 101 and 104 however the human mind will see 4 as MUCH larger than one as opposed to it seeing 101 and 104 as roughly the same size because the former is 4 times the value). So if you became suspicious of a person, despite their alikeness to you, you would "pick-up" (make up is probably more accurate) a pattern of behavior from them that you dislike and find "harmful" to the general population.

I have to say that the New Age thing you hate so much Bilbo, I wont endulge with them for other reasons.
It will eventually pass ,all things do.
I study and practice a very ancient path nothing new about it at all.
There are truths and half truths or as some say serpentine truths.
But if you want (the truth) you have to first (care to really know )then ask for it to show up and it will in whatever form you can handle at whatever stage your at. This I cant prove 'for you',only you can ask from the heart. If you have the guts to do so,it will turn up in some form and you will begin your own about face and return from self emposed seperation.
In regards New Age , I see them mostly as people worshiping the tools of the universe or God instead of looking to where it and they all stem from.These new age people are the same as the ones who are scared of the light of love, scared of their own shadows, scared of where they have originated from.

Religion is man made and its just another place for many others to hide away in too.



I find it funny that people think it is a weakness to hold a belife other than the one they belive.

It is what causes war it is what continues their own personal seperation from other humans and other life forms.
It is the 'them and us 'syndrome that this 3rd dimension of life keeps bringing to the boil rising it to the top and frying it in the light of Gods sun.
This world is going so fast now regarding progression due to knowledge being released,science catching up via new measureing implements etc that if you feel threatened from any of it now wait until all the lines meet in agreement.

On another note:
My daughter at the age of twelve years looked behind a middle aged female friend of ours and said I can see a tall man behind you.
She asked if he had any messages for her.
My daughter said HE is your relative and he is here to protect your new born from others in this old area of Sydney.
The LAdy was smart she asked my daughter for proof.
My daughter turned to her and said "BIg shoulders" and the lady cried and said "ITs my grandfather" I can only remember one thing and that was him carrying me around everywhere laying down across his shoulders with my head one end and my feet the other.
That was a business woman and that all happened out of the blue.

I think this plain we live in is actually 4 dimensional. My very limited and unproven idea for this comes from the fact that scientists have made renderings of 4d, 5d, and beyond objects that are visible within a 3d plane. If you made a model out of them, you would see that the "hypercube" and whatever else they call the above dimensions are actually just wierdly shaped 3d objects. It's my belief that only the first three dimensions are physical and the next two (or more) are something else (spiritual, conscious, etc.).

In order to truely see a 2dimensional object would you not have to be atleast one dimension above that? If you look down at a square (a 2d square so that is you would look solely at the side you would see nothing because width is non existant in this case) you're view point is a dimension thats not compatible with a 2d object. you can move left and right and up and down (within the square) but looking up or down (past the square boundaries) is a 3rd dimensional viewpoint. So by the same token if we can visually isolate 3d objects, which are all around us, wouldn't it be because he have yet another dimension we are looking from?

Thats probably not the best example but do you atleast see what i'm trying to say?

Not really sure what you are trying to say in all honesty. I understand your point regarding our limitations as a finite human with only 5 senses to be able to see and experience everything in our universe but that is really just a long winded approach to saying that we can't ever really know anything for sure which just puts us back to where we started from.

I believe the biblical model is best because it's the only religious text or indeed belief system that is grounded in actual history, rather than abstract ideas and fantasy.

Sure the miraculous stories are a matter for faith as they cannot be proven but the fact that God laid out the entire history of a nation that He would create, and the fact that we can ourselves study the actual history of this nation and compare it to the biblical picture is tremendously powerful evidence imo.

Anyone who wants to understand the meaning of life and whether there is a God or not has to read the bible from cover to cover before they can even enter into the discussion imo.

I don't say this as a fundamentalist Christian, I am not, but the difference in quality between the biblical world view and any other religious book or belief system is immense.

It has become fashionable these days of multicultural societies and in a scientific age to group every book of faith together, to see them as all equally viable and then to label them as being matters of pure faith with no evidence to suppor them.

But this is a completely and utterly inerrent viewpoint. The bible is the most studied book in human history, teams of archaelogists have gone out to either prove or disprove the bible, people have tried to study the bible for inconsistencies and textual errors and of course people have sought for hundreds of years to prove or disprove the miraculous stories, interperet biblical prophecies and make sense of the book's moral guidlines.

The fact remains that despite all of the criticisms and attacks the book still stands unscathed to this day and nobody has been able to disprove even one part of it.

The only times it conflicts with our present understanding is in matters of science where science views evidence through an entirely different world view. For example the bible teaches that the earth was made recently and that the geological structures in our world were formed through catastraphism, namely a global flood. Science now rejects this and believe that present day erosional processes formed the geological rock strata that we see today, over hundreds of millions of years, rather than a few thousand.

It is also important to note that the age of the earth and the universe have been arbitarily set by scientists to give them the amount of time needed for their evolutionary theories to work. In the last hundred years they have typically added a billion or more years to the age of the universe every decade.

There are a million and one evidences that completely disprove the theory of evolution however agreement by consensus is the strongest form of 'truth' to most humans, who will laugh and ridicule anyone who dares to disagree but who themselves have accepted their own world view completely on blind faith in the men in white coats who tell them how the world is.

If you really want to try and unravel the mysteries of the universe you need to evaluate everything from the beginning. Don't just start by accepting that evolution is true and that the bible is just a book of faith like any other. Instead first off study evolution, examine the evidences both for and against and read the bible completely from cover to cover.

I guarantee your worldview will experience a paradigm shift that you could not begin to imagine right now.

[Andre]

I think this plain we live in is actually 4 dimensional. My very limited and unproven idea for this comes from the fact that scientists have made renderings of 4d, 5d, and beyond objects that are visible within a 3d plane. If you made a model out of them, you would see that the "hypercube" and whatever else they call the above dimensions are actually just wierdly shaped 3d objects. It's my belief that only the first three dimensions are physical and the next two (or more) are something else (spiritual, conscious, etc.).

In order to truely see a 2dimensional object would you not have to be atleast one dimension above that? If you look down at a square (a 2d square so that is you would look solely at the side you would see nothing because width is non existant in this case) you're view point is a dimension thats not compatible with a 2d object. you can move left and right and up and down (within the square) but looking up or down (past the square boundaries) is a 3rd dimensional viewpoint. So by the same token if we can visually isolate 3d objects, which are all around us, wouldn't it be because he have yet another dimension we are looking from?

Thats probably not the best example but do you atleast see what i'm trying to say?
[/quote]
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
* NOT GUILTY 136 *

*Interdimensionary support wow 9/10!

Thats pretty cool bro! Did you think that all out yourself ?
Im astounded!



This conversation could get thicker than treackle and I bet theres someone back there just waiting to jump on us if we get stuck!
We got ufo's,religion,truth,(pls,notice the seperation) known history,unknown history,new age gluck, ghosts ,exterrestials,extra sensory perseption,normal senses, dimension string theroy, interdimentionary links.
Now just to add the salt and pepper should we discuss the spiritual governing bodies of these linking dimensions

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....

Bilbo ,
Id love to tear factual shreads out of most religions and many parts of the New testament if you'll allow me the courtesty of a blessing in truth and not a damning over it.
I only have concern, becuase; those who belive in 'The word 'literally; belive that anyone who dares to belittle it, add to it or remove from it, is evil and therefore hell bound. This in itself is forcing them to hold me in the very judgment that the same book demands of them not to do, otherwise you be judged also.

This is loveless commming from the God of LOVe by the way.Love allows all things/there are consequences for all actions and guidlines to those ends,not rules and punishments.
Its only obvius that people have made rules so as to hold their power over the masses.
I know there is 'the path way home' still hidden in the writing within the bible . I know the same group of people who killed Jesus /took over the so called civilized world ,then realized that their own Emperor worship was being out done by miricale men and women teaching how anyone can meditate into divine bliss and then heal any sickness etc.These miracle workers who had all the answers, taught how to operate within the universes laws of love and attraction were taking over the public silently but swiftly in that first 3 hundred years ,The Romans re took control by there own law,adapted Christianity into their own goverment, made it compulsery that you belive and practice it 'their way only' or you be put to death . They (thank GOD )forgot to remove some very daming things from the book before they decided on which letters to scrap and which letters to allow into their own ; NEw Testament.
That is all proven in history;The evil behind it has to be decipered correctly.
Tell me to shut up now or be prepared to have your faith tested my friend I have some devestating proof from within the bibile its self that destroys mens faith in their biggest religion. Unless of course they are fundamentalist and walk around like cyclops with one big eye ;-) you cant help them.

[Julius Rain]

impressive! this has been a very interesting read. to everyone that gave a great personal point of view.

I had goosebumps reading about some of the ufo's and ghost stories, and special to my dear old buddy CUTMEMICK for supplying videos.

This became a religious conversation, although I have been considered to be very religious. I have many disagreements with the christian beliefs.

[Julius Rain]

First of we are all entitled to our beliefs. So I shall share mine. I believe that there is a god, I have felt his grace many times. There has been times in my life that, I knew only god could help me at that moment and for these events I have strongly believe my GOD has came to aid.

I have always worn a necklace with a cross since I was a very young child. I always believe that this has help me and kept me from harm.

I think every men or women can find god within themselves. The bible writes many things and I think their are those to believe and those to dismiss(because of the filt tax on by greed and the evil power that tempts men to infest minds of others for personal benefits). "read between the lines" It wrote every person has the ability to pray and speak to GOD within. If so what do we need churches for and preist or bishops.

I do believe jesus is the son of god, as we all are as christians. I believe jesus died and there was no ressurections. The romans cruxified him like any other men they believe to be a criminal. I believe when jesus died, his brother james continued the new christian religion. I believe the original christianity was to teach that every men and women are equal and all have the ability to pray and reach GOD within themselves, and nothing more then that, no emperor or official or wealthy are more powerful then they are. I then believe a men called PAUL shape the christian belief into what the romans will accept. Before jesus times, its already a theme to call someone of high rank a SON OF GOD. But paul added that this man Jesus was truely a son of god and is born of a virgin. That again has been common, at those times claiming one to be a son of a virgin. Our time that is impossible because we know better, but back then if the high rank says so then they had no way of knowing if it weren't true. I believe Paul created an empire side by side with the roman empire. Paul created churches, he made bishops and priest. Paul turn christianity into a religion the romans will accept so he can benefit and reach the highest of statues the POPE. As for the death of jesus, the romans blamed the jewish for it. I'm not jewish but this religion has been around longer then any and has always gone thru many accusations and punishments but they still survived. Jesus a born jewish, simply wanted all to know everyone is equal and the only person they needed to prey and reach GOD is to look deep inside them. That to me is the real christianity.

[Punisher136]

I think this plain we live in is actually 4 dimensional. My very limited and unproven idea for this comes from the fact that scientists have made renderings of 4d, 5d, and beyond objects that are visible within a 3d plane. If you made a model out of them, you would see that the "hypercube" and whatever else they call the above dimensions are actually just wierdly shaped 3d objects. It's my belief that only the first three dimensions are physical and the next two (or more) are something else (spiritual, conscious, etc.).

In order to truely see a 2dimensional object would you not have to be atleast one dimension above that? If you look down at a square (a 2d square so that is you would look solely at the side you would see nothing because width is non existant in this case) you're view point is a dimension thats not compatible with a 2d object. you can move left and right and up and down (within the square) but looking up or down (past the square boundaries) is a 3rd dimensional viewpoint. So by the same token if we can visually isolate 3d objects, which are all around us, wouldn't it be because he have yet another dimension we are looking from?

Thats probably not the best example but do you atleast see what i'm trying to say?

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
* NOT GUILTY 136 *

*Interdimensionary support wow 9/10!

Thats pretty cool bro! Did you think that all out yourself ?
Im astounded!



This conversation could get thicker than treackle and I bet theres someone back there just waiting to jump on us if we get stuck!
We got ufo's,religion,truth,(pls,notice the seperation) known history,unknown history,new age gluck, ghosts ,exterrestials,extra sensory perseption,normal senses, dimension string theroy, interdimentionary links.
Now just to add the salt and pepper should we discuss the spiritual governing bodies of these linking dimensions

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....

[/quote]

My first idea (on a thread in this board entitled "Own up, I'm a genius") on how this all came together was that there was a "conscious" energy (in this plain) that chose to create mass and the existance of life was simply this energy interacting with its own invention. The idea was that there's this tank of consciousness (more sub and dream like than us being awake) and every dead creature brought back information to it. The human ability to invent supported this alittle bit but seeing as i wrote this in two different parts at 5am two different morning several months apart, there were some holes. It started to fall apart and i abandoned it but took some ideas from it.

So some months pass and i start listening to some shows that talk about extra terrestrials and many other things. If there is other life out there (which its almost impossible that there isn't) the bible has some major factual flaws. I started to look at a much bigger picture. I took into account religious texts (and things i felt were inaccurate), scientific facts (and theories that were widely accepted but which i found absurd), and my own ideas. A few days ago i was messing around looking up the theories on other dimensions and then it hit me that those models of "physical" existance (their hyper cube) are ignoring the fact that you can make a 3d model of them. So i tryed picturing what it would be like being conscious in other dimensions.

1D: (A 1D object is represented as a single line that goes on forever) Being conscious here means that you can't see anything because there is nothing thats measureable. Here I came up with the idea that in order to isolate a 1D line you'd have to be conscious at a 2D level. There are unmeasureable lines of length all around you but because setting up a barrier between them would create another physical dimension, you can't see them if you truely do live in a 1D plain. This plain could really be any size as its impossible to measure it.

2D: (A 2D object is represented as a square composed of 4 connected 1d lines) Being conscious here is odd and i haven't exactly figured out the specifics. You can see 1D objects (which are essentially the borderlines of the square/shape you live in) but you are extremely limited. You can't look up or down so all you can see is the line infront of you. Because you can't put into perspecting where those lines end/bend (horizontally OR vertically), you're basically looking at shear darkness. I think you can consciously bump into these lines but because a 2D plain can be really any size it's unlikely. Again this is the hardest one to figure out for me but i'm fairly sure i'm close enough to being right that its accurate enough.

3D: (A 3D object is represented as a cube which is 4 of these 2d suares put together. Man seeks out patterns and this is where he believes that putting 4 cubes together makes a 4 d object but instead, it just makes another 3d onject) Many people (basically everyone except me) believe this is the plain we live in but do we really? There can be no infinity on a 3D plain simply because all dimensions are defined (you can't have an indefinitely huge object if its composed of defineable dimensions). Why isn't this the plain we live in? We are 3D as is every object around us so how could i come up with this crazy idea? Look at a 3D object and define the dimension (legth, width, or height) that is our point of view seeing the 3D object.

4D: As i've stated before you have to be atleast one dimension higher than an object to consciously isolate it. Fully functional consciousness only exists in this dimension and above. Here we can isolate 3D object that are all over the place (3 dimensions are required to have stabalized physical exsitance). In dreams we can create 3d objects that we can interact with. Because this dimension isn't physical or have a truely defineable value, its debateable just really what it is. What exactly is consciousness? Whats the difference between a dream and a memory? Both can be mentally altered over time and you'll never physical relive either. You can usually tell the difference between life and a dream but once a moment passes, what proof do you have that you were actually there aside from your memory and the belief that the physical plain in front of you is there because something happened before it? I believe time (and numbers in general) is human made and simply used as a perspective. You can look up what happened 2 "years" ago and "remember" it but everything will keep changing. You can't go back in time because time isn't real (physical objects don't age so they have no perspective to be reverted back to) but can you go back into a state of consciousness that you were experiencing?

5D: Here we go. The afterlife, "god", ghosts, whatever you want to imagine. Physical existance ends here. This is consciousness beyond consciousness and as far as i can believe, the final dimension. Everytime i try to imagine what this place "looks like" my brain hurts. Some might believe that here you can see the past, present and future (again all human ideas) of our 4D plain. Why would you be able to see something that you didn't exist for? You would've had to have been conscious at one point to go back to the "past" (which can only be your strain of consciousness's past. ie past lives.). If your strain has another life yet to happen, you can't look at it yet because It has yet to happen . I subscribe to the belief that you can take any human at birth and (aside from genetic influences from hormones and all that) dictate exactly what they will grow up to be 10 out of 10 times so each life you start over is basically a clean slate.

I can't tell you exactly what being here would be like because it is beyond 4D comprehension. My 4D prejudice doesn't allow me to picture anything here accurately. If there's yet another dimension, well thats even harder for me to explain.

[Kev]

Bilbo ,
Id love to tear factual shreads out of most religions and many parts of the New testament if you'll allow me the courtesty of a blessing in truth and not a damning over it.
I only have concern, becuase; those who belive in 'The word 'literally; belive that anyone who dares to belittle it, add to it or remove from it, is evil and therefore hell bound. This in itself is forcing them to hold me in the very judgment that the same book demands of them not to do, otherwise you be judged also.

This is loveless commming from the God of LOVe by the way.Love allows all things/there are consequences for all actions and guidlines to those ends,not rules and punishments.
Its only obvius that people have made rules so as to hold their power over the masses.
I know there is 'the path way home' still hidden in the writing within the bible . I know the same group of people who killed Jesus /took over the so called civilized world ,then realized that their own Emperor worship was being out done by miricale men and women teaching how anyone can meditate into divine bliss and then heal any sickness etc.These miracle workers who had all the answers, taught how to operate within the universes laws of love and attraction were taking over the public silently but swiftly in that first 3 hundred years ,The Romans re took control by there own law,adapted Christianity into their own goverment, made it compulsery that you belive and practice it 'their way only' or you be put to death . They (thank GOD )forgot to remove some very daming things from the book before they decided on which letters to scrap and which letters to allow into their own ; NEw Testament.
That is all proven in history;The evil behind it has to be decipered correctly.
Tell me to shut up now or be prepared to have your faith tested my friend I have some devestating proof from within the bibile its self that destroys mens faith in their biggest religion. Unless of course they are fundamentalist and walk around like cyclops with one big eye ;-) you cant help them.

ha feel free to have a go if you wish. I actually came to believe the bible by focusing on reading exclusively books that 'disproved' it. The same with evolution, I was interested in evolution and wanted to learn about it ad by studying only the books that were written by evolutionist came to see the whole theory was nonsense.

I certainly don't see anything wrong in trying to disprove it after all, if Chrisitianity isn't true then it's the most evil and twisted thing ever to foist itself upon men's minds. Believe me I spent years trying to disprove it just so I could then get on with my life ignoring it.

Now I'm in the unenviable position of knowing it to be true but still wishing to ignore anyway.

What damning factual errors are you referring to? You won't test my faith as I'm a non practising Christain to start with and as I said spend more time reading books 'debunking' Christianty than I do reading things supporting it.

[Punisher136]

If it does in fact state in the bible that the world is only 6,000 odd years old, then i really have no idea how somebody could follow it.

[Kev]

If it does in fact state in the bible that the world is only 6,000 odd years old, then i really have no idea how somebody could follow it.

Well first off the bible doesn't give an age of the earth, but certainly you are correct in that the bible definitely indicates the earth is only in the thousands of years, 10,000 or so rather than the billions as stated by science.

But why is the age of the earth so problematic to you? You only believe the earth to be billions of years old because that is what modern science teaches. If tomorrow scientists announced a shocking new discovery that 'proved' the earth was only 30,000 years I'm sure you and everyone else would just believe it to be true as scientists had just 'proved' it.

The arguments for an old earth are to fit the evolutionary timescale, e.g it took billions of years from the time of the big bang for matter to form in dense lumps and create stars etc. It then took more billions of years for natural processes to 'create' an earth habitable for life etc.

The long age of the universe is neccessary to attempt to explain the origin of the universe without God, it is not a problem at all if you believe that a designer created the universe.

[Punisher136]

If it does in fact state in the bible that the world is only 6,000 odd years old, then i really have no idea how somebody could follow it.

Well first off the bible doesn't give an age of the earth, but certainly you are correct in that the bible definitely indicates the earth is only in the thousands of years, 10,000 or so rather than the billions as stated by science.

But why is the age of the earth so problematic to you? You only believe the earth to be billions of years old because that is what modern science teaches. If tomorrow scientists announced a shocking new discovery that 'proved' the earth was only 30,000 years I'm sure you and everyone else would just believe it to be true as scientists had just 'proved' it.

The arguments for an old earth are to fit the evolutionary timescale, e.g it took billions of years from the time of the big bang for matter to form in dense lumps and create stars etc. It then took more billions of years for natural processes to 'create' an earth habitable for life etc.

The long age of the universe is neccessary to attempt to explain the origin of the universe without God, it is not a problem at all if you believe that a designer created the universe.

Plate tectonics, the earth would be inhabitable without it. They (the plates) move at maybe a centimeter a year and it can be confirmed that they were once interlocked. They are now miles upon miles apart from where they used to be and that process in itself would take tens of thousands of years let alone to formation of the initial pangaea coupled with the massive populations of said animals that once roamed it. Where do you think oil came from? "god" certainly as hell didn't just throw in a chemical in the earths crust for his creations to use. It was made over millions of years by very high pressured decay of several million plant and animal remains.

I believe that there was more to it that just what science wants people to believe but i have reason to believe that this "god" is not as all powerful as he has been described to be.

[Kev]

If it does in fact state in the bible that the world is only 6,000 odd years old, then i really have no idea how somebody could follow it.

Well first off the bible doesn't give an age of the earth, but certainly you are correct in that the bible definitely indicates the earth is only in the thousands of years, 10,000 or so rather than the billions as stated by science.

But why is the age of the earth so problematic to you? You only believe the earth to be billions of years old because that is what modern science teaches. If tomorrow scientists announced a shocking new discovery that 'proved' the earth was only 30,000 years I'm sure you and everyone else would just believe it to be true as scientists had just 'proved' it.

The arguments for an old earth are to fit the evolutionary timescale, e.g it took billions of years from the time of the big bang for matter to form in dense lumps and create stars etc. It then took more billions of years for natural processes to 'create' an earth habitable for life etc.

The long age of the universe is neccessary to attempt to explain the origin of the universe without God, it is not a problem at all if you believe that a designer created the universe.

Plate tectonics, the earth would be inhabitable without it. They (the plates) move at maybe a centimeter a year and it can be confirmed that they were once interlocked. They are now miles upon miles apart from where they used to be and that process in itself would take tens of thousands of years let alone to formation of the initial pangaea coupled with the massive populations of said animals that once roamed it. Where do you think oil came from? "god" certainly as hell didn't just throw in a chemical in the earths crust for his creations to use. It was made over millions of years by very high pressured decay of several million plant and animal remains.

I believe that there was more to it that just what science wants people to believe but i have reason to believe that this "god" is not as all powerful as he has been described to be.

The plates are moving at the rate of a centimeter a year now but we have no way of knowing at what rate they moved in the past. You see you are incapable of seeing the past in any way other than uniformitarainism, e.g the present erosional processes are the key to understanding the past.

But a simple analagy can show how erroneous such a belief can be...

Imagine you come across a bath tub, it is filled with just over half a meter of water, and the tap is dripping at the rate of 1 drip every 8 seconds. How long did the bath take to fill? A scientist using the evolutionary approach would be competely wrong here, examining the speed of the drip, testing the temperature of the water and testing for minute bath leaks and evaporation they would probably come up with a timeframe of several weeks for the bath to fill.

However, obviously this would not be the case, the bath was most likely filled in just a few minutes maybe only a couple of hours ago, possibly even a few minutes if the tap water temperature was the same as the air temperature when turned on.

A scientist using evolutionary methods to estimate a timescale under those circumstances would be way off.

The biblical earth model is not based on uniformitariansim but rather catastrophim, namely that massive violent movements, (a global flood) inflicted trememdous damage to the earth and that the rock strata, coal and oil deposits that scientists believe took millions of years to gradually deposit actually occurred over just a few weeks or months.

As far as coal and oil formation is concerned, the process certainly requires millions of years if you assume uniformitarianism and that no major global catastrophe has impacted the earth as oil is the dead remains of plants and animals gradually accumalated over millions of years.

However, a global flood would have resulted in a catastrophic upheaval with literally billions of sediments of animal and plant matter being laid down literally alomst instantanously.

In such circumsance oil doesnnot take millions of years to form, but only a few weeks!

If you are interested google Robert Gentry, a physicst whose work on palonoim halo's has presented evolutionists with a seemingly unsolvable refutation of a long age for the earth. His groundbreaking work shows more convincingly than anything how both coal and oil can form incredibly quickly under the right circumstances and also how the earth must be young.

It's too techinical to get into on a boxing forum but you'd need to read his books and study the literature, (at least 6 months solid reading if you want to properly understand it) but his work is as groundbreaking as anything in science. Because he's arguing for a young earth however his work is sidelined and ignored by the scientific community. His ideas will be seen as revolutionary in years to come however, when evolutionary theory has shifted its position enough to be able to include his work within their theories.

[Snakey]

Science has proof, they have methods and facts to back their claims up. All religion has is a book with a guy who can walk on water. Now guys tell me this, if a guy came up to you today and said "i can walk on water", would you believe it? Just like i told one of those religious door knockers the other day, i respect peoples right to have religion, i just dont believe in them. Even had him agreeing that a guy walking on water is pretty rediculous and lets just think. Back in those times people were pretty god damn gullable, they thought the earth was flat, witches existed and medicine in some cases was thought to be a trade of witch craft. Now lets add a guy who can heal the blind and walk on water. Where are these things today? They dont exist. IMO if you wanna believe in jesus than fuck why are aliens hard to believe in, theyre more likely to be out there on a distant planet with superior technology than some guy walking around this earth with the power to walk on fuckin water.

[Kev]

Science has proof, they have methods and facts to back their claims up. All religion has is a book with a guy who can walk on water. Now guys tell me this, if a guy came up to you today and said "i can walk on water", would you believe it? Just like i told one of those religious door knockers the other day, i respect peoples right to have religion, i just dont believe in them. Even had him agreeing that a guy walking on water is pretty rediculous and lets just think. Back in those times people were pretty god damn gullable, they thought the earth was flat, witches existed and medicine in some cases was thought to be a trade of witch craft. Now lets add a guy who can heal the blind and walk on water. Where are these things today? They dont exist. IMO if you wanna believe in jesus than F*** why are aliens hard to believe in, theyre more likely to be out there on a distant planet with superior technology than some guy walking around this earth with the power to walk on F****** water.

Hmm Jesus was able to walk on water because he was God. If he was an ordinary man then obviously he wouldn't be able to walk on water but the whole point of the bible is that God Himself came to earth in the form of Jesus. If he was God then of course he could walk on water, if he wasn't then of course of he couldn't.

It's a matter of faith not of intellect. By the way people wern't any more gullible back then than they are now. They had witches and demons we have aliens and ghosts.

And the earth being flat was only a westernised view pre Columbus, ancient man knew the earth was round, indeed the bible says the earth is round in Isiah, even the Quran describes the earth as being a similar shape to an egg.

[Snakey]

Science has proof, they have methods and facts to back their claims up. All religion has is a book with a guy who can walk on water. Now guys tell me this, if a guy came up to you today and said "i can walk on water", would you believe it? Just like i told one of those religious door knockers the other day, i respect peoples right to have religion, i just dont believe in them. Even had him agreeing that a guy walking on water is pretty rediculous and lets just think. Back in those times people were pretty god damn gullable, they thought the earth was flat, witches existed and medicine in some cases was thought to be a trade of witch craft. Now lets add a guy who can heal the blind and walk on water. Where are these things today? They dont exist. IMO if you wanna believe in jesus than F*** why are aliens hard to believe in, theyre more likely to be out there on a distant planet with superior technology than some guy walking around this earth with the power to walk on F****** water.

Hmm Jesus was able to walk on water because he was God. If he was an ordinary man then obviously he wouldn't be able to walk on water but the whole point of the bible is that God Himself came to earth in the form of Jesus. If he was God then of course he could walk on water, if he wasn't then of course of he couldn't.

It's a matter of faith not of intellect. By the way people wern't any more gullible back then than they are now. They had witches and demons we have aliens and ghosts.

And the earth being flat was only a westernised view pre Columbus, ancient man knew the earth was round, indeed the bible says the earth is round in Isiah, even the Quran describes the earth as being a similar shape to an egg.

So why isnt god here now then, when the world is in probably alot more dire state then it was back then. Wasnt jesus, gods son? Which one is it? They were gullible, they would of probably saw a person pull a rabbit out of their hat and scream witch when we all know there is a trick to it. If you dont like to place anything on the shoulders of science than do you think we would have this technology you are using to type on this forum coz religion didnt give this to us So i think we can place more faith into science which has facts than something like the bible which could of just been made by a couple of guys in a cult of some sort. No proof at all that he could do what the bible stated. And also when moses went to a pharaoh and said free my people, history doesnt even tell us who the pharaoh was. If this was such a significant event than a name should of been mentioned. It is only rumoured that the pharaoh at that time was ramses the great (Ramses(spelling?) the second).

[Kev]

Science has proof, they have methods and facts to back their claims up. All religion has is a book with a guy who can walk on water. Now guys tell me this, if a guy came up to you today and said "i can walk on water", would you believe it? Just like i told one of those religious door knockers the other day, i respect peoples right to have religion, i just dont believe in them. Even had him agreeing that a guy walking on water is pretty rediculous and lets just think. Back in those times people were pretty god damn gullable, they thought the earth was flat, witches existed and medicine in some cases was thought to be a trade of witch craft. Now lets add a guy who can heal the blind and walk on water. Where are these things today? They dont exist. IMO if you wanna believe in jesus than F*** why are aliens hard to believe in, theyre more likely to be out there on a distant planet with superior technology than some guy walking around this earth with the power to walk on F****** water.

Hmm Jesus was able to walk on water because he was God. If he was an ordinary man then obviously he wouldn't be able to walk on water but the whole point of the bible is that God Himself came to earth in the form of Jesus. If he was God then of course he could walk on water, if he wasn't then of course of he couldn't.

It's a matter of faith not of intellect. By the way people wern't any more gullible back then than they are now. They had witches and demons we have aliens and ghosts.

And the earth being flat was only a westernised view pre Columbus, ancient man knew the earth was round, indeed the bible says the earth is round in Isiah, even the Quran describes the earth as being a similar shape to an egg.

So why isnt god here now then, when the world is in probably alot more dire state then it was back then. Wasnt jesus, gods son? Which one is it? They were gullible, they would of probably saw a person pull a rabbit out of their hat and scream witch when we all know there is a trick to it. If you dont like to place anything on the shoulders of science than do you think we would have this technology you are using to type on this forum coz religion didnt give this to us So i think we can place more faith into science which has facts than something like the bible which could of just been made by a couple of guys in a cult of some sort. No proof at all that he could do what the bible stated. And also when moses went to a pharaoh and said free my people, history doesnt even tell us who the pharaoh was. If this was such a significant event than a name should of been mentioned. It is only rumoured that the pharaoh at that time was ramses the great (Ramses(spelling?) the second).

Ok as to the first question where is God now, read the bible to find out? It explains everything

Secondly religion and science. It may suprise you to know that it was Christiainity and Islam that actually gave birth to science. You see Christianity provide a methodology, a way of looking at the world that allowed scientific investigation into God's creation to take place.

All of the world's greatest scientists up to the 19th century were Christians, and fundamentalist believers in a biblical flood and the literal truth of the bible.

Sir Isaac Newton wrote more books on theology than he did on science. Johannes Kepler one of the greatest astronmers, Michael Faraday the discover of electro-magnetic induction and one the most important scientists of all time was a staunch Christian as was James Clek Maxwell who discovered the electromagnetic field. Other strong men of faith included Neils Bohr the most important physicst of all time who discovered the Atom.

In fact it could well be argued that were it not for the Abrahamic faiths Christianity, Judaism and Islam modern science would never have developed as the necessary methodology of a world that was meant to be explored and would be understandable to us because God had made it so would not have in place.

It is true that in many instances religious institutions seek to block scientific progress in order to support a world view prevalent at that time, for example the Catholic church putting Gallieo under house arrest for demonstrating that the earth went around the sun. However what they were 'protecting' was not a biblical belief but rather a Greek-Ptolomeic view of the universe.

The same situation exists at present with many theistic Christians denouncing fundamentalists for not believing in evolution. In fact it wouldn't suprise me at all if in a couple hundred years people will use the mainstream Church's belief in evolution as an example of them hampering scientific progress

[Punisher136]

Science has proof, they have methods and facts to back their claims up. All religion has is a book with a guy who can walk on water. Now guys tell me this, if a guy came up to you today and said "i can walk on water", would you believe it? Just like i told one of those religious door knockers the other day, i respect peoples right to have religion, i just dont believe in them. Even had him agreeing that a guy walking on water is pretty rediculous and lets just think. Back in those times people were pretty god damn gullable, they thought the earth was flat, witches existed and medicine in some cases was thought to be a trade of witch craft. Now lets add a guy who can heal the blind and walk on water. Where are these things today? They dont exist. IMO if you wanna believe in jesus than F*** why are aliens hard to believe in, theyre more likely to be out there on a distant planet with superior technology than some guy walking around this earth with the power to walk on F****** water.

Hmm Jesus was able to walk on water because he was God. If he was an ordinary man then obviously he wouldn't be able to walk on water but the whole point of the bible is that God Himself came to earth in the form of Jesus. If he was God then of course he could walk on water, if he wasn't then of course of he couldn't.

It's a matter of faith not of intellect. By the way people wern't any more gullible back then than they are now. They had witches and demons we have aliens and ghosts.

And the earth being flat was only a westernised view pre Columbus, ancient man knew the earth was round, indeed the bible says the earth is round in Isiah, even the Quran describes the earth as being a similar shape to an egg.

If I do recall, copernicus was almost put to death by the church when he brought forth the (correct) idea of heliocentricizm. Because the church disagreed with that (how dare anybody defy those put in power by "god" ) they refused to accept it. Chinese armies fired at a lunar eclipse because they thought a dragon was eating the sun. They felt the bubonic plague was caused by "god"'s wrath for their immorality. The claim that we are just as naive as them back then is a joke. They were afraid of "god" and felt that he indeed controlled every aspect of their lives.

I'd like to bring your attention to another bible verse you haven't addressed yet bilbo. The one where somebody has a pissing contest with somebody else over whose god is real. Somebody believes in the "god" and another believed in bhaal. Supposedly they set up two piles of logs to be lit. The first one was to be lit by bhaal and the guy calls for him to light the logs and it never happens. The "loyal" "god" follower then douses his pile with water (or he digs a trench and puts the logs in a pool kinda thing can't remember for sure) and calls for "god" to light them and he does successfully eventhough the man had wet the logs twice. Why doesn't he show himself and his alledged powers like that anymore. Cleary he "used to" show off his stuff to prove himself to non-believers.