60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[undefeated]

joe louis could never beat 60's ali--im sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him. if people wanna put louis as #1 hw--thats fine--i just put ali as #1 because he had the best opposition. beating 2 indestrucable fighters from 2 different era's, not only did he beat liston and foreman, but he made them look bad and amateurish. i cant c louis beating either. i put louis as #2 in my top ten--he was a great but not the greatest

[ICB]

joe louis could never beat 60's ali--im sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him. if people wanna put louis as #1 hw--thats fine--i just put ali as #1 because he had the best opposition. beating 2 indestrucable fighters from 2 different era's, not only did he beat liston and foreman, but he made them look bad and amateurish. i cant c louis beating either. i put louis as #2 in my top ten--he was a great but not the greatest

I stopped reading after this part.

m sorry--no disrespect to louis--but ali would toy around w/him.

Biased and ridiculous haven't got time to debate with fans like these.

[CutMeMick]

(This is my 1st post in this 7 pg. thread)


I have a doc. titles 'Ali in 65' really good stuff on early Ali in this one.

In regards to the title of thread well... I mean logic tells you to say 'No' but who knows really.

[The Fightfan]

That was just sad to post something like that.

[Master]

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

[DaxxKahn]

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

[ICB]

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top

No its absolute ridiculous and someone who is just a fan boy, and has hardly ever seen Louis fights. Louis is one of the best punchers of all time, he may of had slow footwork but he had superb jab and quick hands. Why can't people get into there heads that Ali is nowhere near unbeatable and he actually done most things wrong in boxing, Ali is great no one is denying that but he struggled against mediocre fighters like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, so he obviously was very beatable, i can tell you right now if Ali fought the same way like he did vs Jones and Cooper, he would have been put on his back side and probably stopped. Ali's performance against Williams was amazing but lets be honest Williams was mediocre fighter and he was well past his sell by date when he fought Ali. Louis vs Ali would be close contested match up and to be honest i don't take *undefeated* comments seriously anymore.

[DaxxKahn]

Undefeated is right style wise Louis would have trouble catching Ali.

I agree with trouble catching him and it being a hard fight...prime for prime....(Louis after the Schmeling loss ali pre exile years)...IMO is a pick em...but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top...we are talking about a guy who didn't have a bad night in 11yrs.....

but to say Ali would toy with Loius is a bit over the top

No its absolute ridiculous and someone who is just a fan boy, and has hardly ever seen Louis fights. Louis is one of the best punchers of all time, he may of had slow footwork but he had superb jab and quick hands. Why can't people get into there heads that Ali is nowhere near unbeatable and he actually done most things wrong in boxing, Ali is great no one is denying that but he struggled against mediocre fighters like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, so he obviously was very beatable, i can tell you right now if Ali fought the same way like he did vs Jones and Cooper, he would have been put on his back side and probably stopped. Ali's performance against Williams was amazing but lets be honest Williams was mediocre fighter and he was well past his sell by date when he fought Ali. Louis vs Ali would be close contested match up and to be honest i don't take *undefeated* comments seriously anymore.

Ali just had that effect on guys Ice, my Father was a huge Ali fan...back then people either thought he was the tops or hated his guts...much of it had to do with out of ring dealings as much as in ring....he was not just a special kind of fighter but person in general.....Without Ali and my pops devotion I would not have started watching boxing at such a young age or maybe even be a big fan of the sport at all.....You can not name too many fighters that when they get beat grown men actually cry...when Ali took beatings from Holmes and lost to Spinks it actually made gron men cry to see him get beat like that so one sided and in the Spinks case lose to a guy who had no business even being in with Ali if Ali was a few yrs younger....even today it is more Ali the man then Ali the fighter people are so devoted to.....as a kid I used to call him my favorite super hero...I am a bit older then you but that just shows how high he was thought of...he always seemed to come out on top even after a loss....


I have said this before...Ali would not be who he was as a fighter without Dundee...Angelo bought more time and fixed more situations in the ring then we can count....without dundee in the corner EG the liston eye ointemnt situation...Ali would not have become the fighter he is he would have quit on the stool and his legecy would have been half what it is today if that....

Plus those situations like the Jones fights etc...thats what made him so great...he beat those moments...would we really think as much if he did not come back from moments like that?....reguardless of the opp

I agree though the Louis comment is overboard....Joe was great and as you said his hand speed and jab were fantastic...the speed of Joes punches added with the power he held over Ali would have been a big factor in the footwork difference....

[Trainer Monkey]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

[ICB]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

[Trainer Monkey]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

[ICB]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

[Trainer Monkey]

Ooooooooooo a puffed up cruiserweight who lasted a whopping...................
An elderly retiree
And a complete nobody,who got lucky
Im so impressed
Yeah the guy who was a two time undisputed,two two time contenders for an undisputed title,couldnt possibly hold the jockstraps of those guys

[CutMeMick]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

I was agreeing with your list there ICB up until you posted Tucker... You completely reached for that one there IMO.
The thing to keep in mind there with Ali and his opponents is for example...
Folley was coming off some very impressive wins over Mildenberger, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Foster... So he had fought himself to Ali.
Mildenberegr was the European Champ.
Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.One thing to look for since you like to look at BoxRec (I'm not saying this to make fun of you or anything) is see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

[ICB]

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top
Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali
Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

Cmon Ice,I know you hate Ali,and want to make your point that he's over rated,but this is getting over the top

I don't hate Ali i dislike him, but i do enjoy some of his fights.

Joes style was to slow of foot to catch that prime Ali

And Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, were speed demons ??

Now maybe if he'd trained in the 60's and had been taught then,maybe Joe fights totally different,quite possible
But style for style,as we know both fighters,Louis was built for Ali to play games with

For someone who is boxing trainer im shocked you think, Ali would play with one of the Greatest Heavyweights of all time.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali
You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Its how Joe came in,its too slow,thats why Ali had that jab,he'd catch guys coming in like that
Dude one of my wifes gifts is a Team Louis Sweatshirt,its just too slow of a style to get in on someone like Ali

How did Doug Jones do so well then and Henry Cooper ?? both were slower than Louis and both couldn't carry Joe Louis's spit bucket.

You dont have to like it,but the truth of it is,Ali could get away with toying with guys in that era,and did,these weren Mike Tyson chumps dug up to pad his record,these guys were the best out there. And he treated them like a cat plays with a mouse. And ended them when he got bored with the fight.

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Tony Tucker

These fighters alone are better than most of Ali's competition in 60s.

Zora Folley
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Doug Jones

Etc.

I was agreeing with your list there ICB up until you posted Tucker... You completely reached for that one there IMO.
The thing to keep in mind there with Ali and his opponents is for example...
Folley was coming off some very impressive wins over Mildenberger, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Foster... So he had fought himself to Ali.
Mildenberegr was the European Champ.
Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.One thing to look for since you like to look at BoxRec (I'm not saying this to make fun of you or anything) is see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

Tony Tucker was 35-0 and was one of the best Heavyweights of the 80s.

And where do you keep getting from that i look up on Boxrec ?? i don't i have watched most of Ali's fights i know about his opponent's i don't need Boxrec to tell me.

Also curious to know why you failed to leave out some other Ali opponents of the 60's.

The reason i didn't mention all of Ali's opposition in 60s because i was trying to explain to Monkey that Tyson's opposition was a lot better than most of Muhammad Ali's opposition, thats why i only mentioned majority of them and not all them like George Chuvalo, 44 year old Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson etc.

see how many of these names all appear on each others records?
That's cause these were the best around at that time Oscar, Karl, Zora, Henry, Terrell, Williams etc. etc. etc.

They were best of there era i never denied that but it doesn't make them good Heavyweight's, because it was weak era at that time until late 60s/early 70s when the big boys started to come along.