Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1

[killersheep]

So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?

Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?

If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?

Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.

JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.

There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

The p4p title is not like a belt that is won in the ring though would you agree with that?

[Kev]

Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.

JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.

There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

The p4p title is not like a belt that is won in the ring though would you agree with that?

Yes kind of but when I talk of p4p I'm talking specifically about the Ring Magazine and as they work within boxing and are essentially part of boxing they HAVE to abide by actual fight results and not their subjective opinion of whether a fighter should have got the decision or not.

If you want to say that in your opinion JM Marquez is p4p number 1 in the world according to your rankings, or Saddo's conduct a poll to find a top 10 and they put him at number 1 then that is all fine and dandy.

But the Ring magazine is the official p4p list and they cannot (and clearly would not) elevate a fighter above another he just lost to becuase in their subjective opinion they preferred his wins.

If the Ring was to do that it would lose all credibility and become just another opinion poll like everybody else's.

So in summation, Marquez number 1 in your poll or the official Saddo p4p rankings, fine, Marquez number 1 in the p4p Ring Rankings, forget it.

[killersheep]

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

The p4p title is not like a belt that is won in the ring though would you agree with that?

Yes kind of but when I talk of p4p I'm talking specifically about the Ring Magazine and as they work within boxing and are essentially part of boxing they HAVE to abide by actual fight results and not their subjective opinion of whether a fighter should have got the decision or not.

If you want to say that in your opinion JM Marquez is p4p number 1 in the world according to your rankings, or Saddo's conduct a poll to find a top 10 and they put him at number 1 then that is all fine and dandy.

But the Ring magazine is the official p4p list and they cannot (and clearly would not) elevate a fighter above another he just lost to becuase in their subjective opinion they preferred his wins.

If the Ring was to do that it would lose all credibility and become just another opinion poll like everybody else's.

So in summation, Marquez number 1 in your poll or the official Saddo p4p rankings, fine, Marquez number 1 in the p4p Ring Rankings, forget it.

So your entire argument is moot since JT claimed it as his p4p list.

Anywho I'm off to school, see ya later.

[Kev]

The p4p title is not like a belt that is won in the ring though would you agree with that?

Yes kind of but when I talk of p4p I'm talking specifically about the Ring Magazine and as they work within boxing and are essentially part of boxing they HAVE to abide by actual fight results and not their subjective opinion of whether a fighter should have got the decision or not.

If you want to say that in your opinion JM Marquez is p4p number 1 in the world according to your rankings, or Saddo's conduct a poll to find a top 10 and they put him at number 1 then that is all fine and dandy.

But the Ring magazine is the official p4p list and they cannot (and clearly would not) elevate a fighter above another he just lost to becuase in their subjective opinion they preferred his wins.

If the Ring was to do that it would lose all credibility and become just another opinion poll like everybody else's.

So in summation, Marquez number 1 in your poll or the official Saddo p4p rankings, fine, Marquez number 1 in the p4p Ring Rankings, forget it.

So your entire argument is moot since JT claimed it as his p4p list.

If its just his list then fine, he can have whoever he wants as number 1.

I also regard Evander Holyfield as the WBA heavyweight world champ.

My opinon doesn't mean much to the WBA though unfortunately.

[killersheep]

Yes kind of but when I talk of p4p I'm talking specifically about the Ring Magazine and as they work within boxing and are essentially part of boxing they HAVE to abide by actual fight results and not their subjective opinion of whether a fighter should have got the decision or not.

If you want to say that in your opinion JM Marquez is p4p number 1 in the world according to your rankings, or Saddo's conduct a poll to find a top 10 and they put him at number 1 then that is all fine and dandy.

But the Ring magazine is the official p4p list and they cannot (and clearly would not) elevate a fighter above another he just lost to becuase in their subjective opinion they preferred his wins.

If the Ring was to do that it would lose all credibility and become just another opinion poll like everybody else's.

So in summation, Marquez number 1 in your poll or the official Saddo p4p rankings, fine, Marquez number 1 in the p4p Ring Rankings, forget it.

So your entire argument is moot since JT claimed it as his p4p list.

If its just his list then fine, he can have whoever he wants as number 1.

I also regard Evander Holyfield as the WBA heavyweight world champ.

My opinon doesn't mean much to the WBA though unfortunately.

Again, that doesn't have anything to do with the argument.

[Spicoli]

I officially re-hate p4p lists.Pure subjectivity,opinion & interpretation.Pick who you think is the better fighter,better resume/accomplishments,skillset & ring generalship...thats your p4p.Marquez is mine.Gets away from focus on divisions and who is best?I'm surprised no one is making a case for Floyd.I mean,I wouldn't but with so much hype undoubtedly coming our way should Pacquiao emerge victorious vs. Hatton,where would he rank with an announced return,taking into account the inactivity?And why would Marquez call him out,knowing hes 'retired' ,does he know something we don't?I'm all over the place,just remembered I dislike the p4p lists .

[Kev]

So your entire argument is moot since JT claimed it as his p4p list.

If its just his list then fine, he can have whoever he wants as number 1.

I also regard Evander Holyfield as the WBA heavyweight world champ.

My opinon doesn't mean much to the WBA though unfortunately.

Again, that doesn't have anything to do with the argument.

Yes it does seeing as the Ring techinically 'owns' the p4p rankings at least as far as legitimacy is concerned.

If the Ring recognises Pacquiao as p4p number 1 in the world then Michael Buffer, the HBO crew, the Showtime announcers, all the promoters and everyone within boxing will all refer to him as 'P4P the greatest fighter in the world today'.

Nobody will claim that with Marquez because according to the Ring he's not.

So it's essentially the same, I think Holyfield beat Valuev and is the WBA champ, but the WBA are the guys whose opinion matters and they say Valuev.........

[Kev]

I officially re-hate p4p lists.Pure subjectivity,opinion & interpretation.Pick who you think is the better fighter,better resume/accomplishments,skillset & ring generalship...thats your p4p.Marquez is mine.Gets away from focus on divisions and who is best?I'm surprised no one is making a case for Floyd.I mean,I wouldn't but with so much hype undoubtedly coming our way should Pacquiao emerge victorious vs. Hatton,where would he rank with an announced return,taking into account the inactivity?And why would Marquez call him out,knowing hes 'retired' ,does he know something we don't?I'm all over the place,just remembered I dislike the p4p lists .

The non Ring rankings are, and that's why they have no credibility, the Ring Rankings are about as fair and accurate as you can realistically get however.

Plus you say you hate them for being pure subjecitivty and then argue for picking your own based on that very same subjectivity?

That's makes no sense?

I don't have an opinion on Manny being a better fighter than Marquez whatsoever, all I know is he holds a win over him and therefore is p4p above him, no subjectivity or personal opinion there.

[Spicoli]

I officially re-hate p4p lists.Pure subjectivity,opinion & interpretation.Pick who you think is the better fighter,better resume/accomplishments,skillset & ring generalship...thats your p4p.Marquez is mine.Gets away from focus on divisions and who is best?I'm surprised no one is making a case for Floyd.I mean,I wouldn't but with so much hype undoubtedly coming our way should Pacquiao emerge victorious vs. Hatton,where would he rank with an announced return,taking into account the inactivity?And why would Marquez call him out,knowing hes 'retired' ,does he know something we don't?I'm all over the place,just remembered I dislike the p4p lists .

The non Ring rankings are, and that's why they have no credibility, the Ring Rankings are about as fair and accurate as you can realistically get however.

Its called the Bible of Boxing,ok.But I'm not about to fall at the altar and sing hymes to Oscar & Nat Fleisher.I have the utmost respect for Its history and its endeavorers to better the sport and give the fans a unified front,but Ive always had issues with p4p.Prior to Shane Smashing Margarito to bits,Tony was #6...ahead of Rafa Marquez.Wrap-gate aside...I still like Tony but I honestly and respectfully dont think he should have been that high p4p.It all comes down to skills for me.Damn Bilbo...now ya have me talking p4p .Good read those last couple of pages guys.

Damn...now you went and edited.Its not subjectivity at all Bilbs.Regardless of Pacs narrow win...I do in fact see & believe Marquez to be the better all around skilled fighter...forward and back.It makes perfect sense to me.

[Violent Demise]

So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?

Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?

If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?

Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.

JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.

There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

Only a fool would consider Pacquiao a former Lightweight champion. David Diaz won a vacant title by beating a non-champion. He's was a 3rd tier, paper champion. The fact that Pac decided to face him instead of Joel Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz or even a Julio Diaz is not something that should be bragged about

[rjj tszyu]

Juan Diaz was and is the #1 Ring rated contender in the weight class that JMM now occupies.

JMM fought the Lineal ring champ Casamayor in the fight before that.

There can be no question he fought the best in the division according to the ring, AKA the best opposition available to him.

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

Only a fool would consider Pacquiao a former Lightweight champion. David Diaz won a vacant title by beating a non-champion. He's was a 3rd tier, paper champion. The fact that Pac decided to face him instead of Joel Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz or even a Julio Diaz is not something that should be bragged about

Maybe not but the way he totally whupped him from the opening bell was!

[Violent Demise]

I don't dispute that and would unhesitatingly put Marquez as THE man in the lightweight division but how does he leapfrog the man who just beat him three fights ago and who has since won another world title at a different weight class and then jumped 3 weight classes to fight a 6 weight world champ and legend in the next fight?

Yes Marquez did fantastically well and has destroyed the two best fighters at lightweight (well Nate Campbell was the best but he's moved up now) but he can't leapfrog Pacquiao who he lost to off the back of that.

And if were going to get all subjective I think there are as many questionmarks over Casamayor and Juan Diaz as there are over David Diaz and Oscar.

Certainly Oscar had looked much better in recent outings than both Casa (who had looked awful against Santa Cruz and Katsidis) and Juan Diaz, who was totally beaten up by Nate Campbell.

There's simply no way a justification can be made for dropping Manny down a place on the back of three outstanding wins against JMM, David Diaz and Oscar De La Hoya each one progressively more dominant than the last.

And if Marquez had got the decision against Manny, I'd be arguing the same for him, that Marquez won the fight and hence was p4p number 1 regardless whether people though Manny won or not.

Only a fool would consider Pacquiao a former Lightweight champion. David Diaz won a vacant title by beating a non-champion. He's was a 3rd tier, paper champion. The fact that Pac decided to face him instead of Joel Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz or even a Julio Diaz is not something that should be bragged about

Maybe not but the way he totally whupped him from the opening bell was!

He whupped a D level fighter. There's only so much credit you can give him

[XaduBoxer]

Only a fool would consider Pacquiao a former Lightweight champion. David Diaz won a vacant title by beating a non-champion. He's was a 3rd tier, paper champion. The fact that Pac decided to face him instead of Joel Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz or even a Julio Diaz is not something that should be bragged about

Maybe not but the way he totally whupped him from the opening bell was!

He whupped a D level fighter. There's only so much credit you can give him

David Diaz a D level fighter who whupped Armando Santa Cruz an E level boxer who in turn whupped Casamayor a F level boxer... Is this the logic of your statement above?
.

[Spicoli]

Maybe not but the way he totally whupped him from the opening bell was!

He whupped a D level fighter. There's only so much credit you can give him

David Diaz a D level fighter who whupped Armando Santa Cruz an E level boxer who in turn whupped Casamayor a F level boxer... Is this the logic of your statement above?
.

Something tells me you have never seen that Cruz-Diaz fight . The only thing Diaz was missing in with Pacquiao was a big bow tied around his head ....and a realistic chance of emerging victorious

[killersheep]

If its just his list then fine, he can have whoever he wants as number 1.

I also regard Evander Holyfield as the WBA heavyweight world champ.

My opinon doesn't mean much to the WBA though unfortunately.

Again, that doesn't have anything to do with the argument.

Yes it does seeing as the Ring techinically 'owns' the p4p rankings at least as far as legitimacy is concerned.

If the Ring recognises Pacquiao as p4p number 1 in the world then Michael Buffer, the HBO crew, the Showtime announcers, all the promoters and everyone within boxing will all refer to him as 'P4P the greatest fighter in the world today'.

Nobody will claim that with Marquez because according to the Ring he's not.

So it's essentially the same, I think Holyfield beat Valuev and is the WBA champ, but the WBA are the guys whose opinion matters and they say Valuev.........

You are bringing in layers of complication for no reason here.
JT made a thread stating "JMM is p4p #1" and since JT is not a spokesperson for The Ring we can safely assume this means his own list.
And since we can safely assume it is his own list, in your words "he can have whoever he wants at number 1".