Top 5 P4P Now?

[Kev]

..... let's not get carried away.

getting carried away is putting donaire at no. 2. imo he deserve to move at least a position up the p4p ranking.

Even I won't argue against a number 4 ranking now. He's fought the two fighters regarded as the best opposition out there at that time and totally smashed them. I don't think anybody else has done that lately. Martinez hasn't, Bradley, Marquez, Lopez, Ward etc.

Only Pacquaio has been toppling top guys as impressively.

How could Martinez recent opposition have been better? He completely outclassed the top fighters in two divisions.

His opposition has been steller but he hasn't destroyed them the way Donaire has. He lost the first fight with Williams, fought to a draw with Kermit Cintron (yes I know it was bullshit).

Meanwhile Donaire has wrecked his opposition, completely sparking them like Martinez did in the Williams rematch.

I think Martinez is 1-1-1 in his last three fights?

Oh he did beat Pavlik too. But again it was a competive fight until down the stretch and it went to the cards. Not a demolition like Donaire did tonight and against Vic.

No love for Maritnez?? Why are you trying SO hard to discredit what the man has done? Don't even act like you know he was going to spark Williams in the rematch. I called that and nobody was with me. He didn't just WIN against Cintron he knocked him out with a PUNCH to the FACE. Cintron could only continue, bc he was give ample time to recover from that punch. (Yes the one he complained about being a headbutt)

Martinez stole the title from Pavlik in a guts performance. He got off the convas to lacerate Pavliks face and take his belts.

Donaire on the other had went life and death with a guy who was 13-3-1 in Rafael Conception. This does NOT matter anymore, but I am just saying everyone has blemishes on their record.

1 Pacquiao
2 Martinez
3 W Klitschko
4 Marquez (he just keeps winning, why boot him?)
5 Donaire

Honorable mention: Andre Ward

haha this is great now somebody sees me as a fanboy of Nonito Donaire

Try reading all my posts in this thread. I have Martinez number 3 p4p, you are completely missing what I was talking about. It had nothing to do with Martinez really, I just said that Donaire was finally worthy of his lofty p4p status having destroyed his top rivals in a way that only Manny has been doing lately.

[bzkfn]

1 Pacquiao
2 Martinez
3 W Klitschko
4 Marquez (he just keeps winning, why boot him?)
5 Donaire

Honorable mention: Andre Ward

If you're basing your P4P ranking on achievements, then how does Andre Ward receive an honourable mention. As he's the only fighter you've given this to, I assume you place him at 6? But achievement wise, he's done very little to warrant such a lofty ranking. If you're basing it on skill and what you think may happen in the future, then I can see where you are coming from, but at this moment, Ward is not top 10 P4P IMO.

[Rantcatrat]

..... let's not get carried away.

getting carried away is putting donaire at no. 2. imo he deserve to move at least a position up the p4p ranking.

Even I won't argue against a number 4 ranking now. He's fought the two fighters regarded as the best opposition out there at that time and totally smashed them. I don't think anybody else has done that lately. Martinez hasn't, Bradley, Marquez, Lopez, Ward etc.

Only Pacquaio has been toppling top guys as impressively.

How could Martinez recent opposition have been better? He completely outclassed the top fighters in two divisions.

His opposition has been steller but he hasn't destroyed them the way Donaire has. He lost the first fight with Williams, fought to a draw with Kermit Cintron (yes I know it was bullshit).

Meanwhile Donaire has wrecked his opposition, completely sparking them like Martinez did in the Williams rematch.

I think Martinez is 1-1-1 in his last three fights?

Oh he did beat Pavlik too. But again it was a competive fight until down the stretch and it went to the cards. Not a demolition like Donaire did tonight and against Vic.

No love for Maritnez?? Why are you trying SO hard to discredit what the man has done? Don't even act like you know he was going to spark Williams in the rematch. I called that and nobody was with me. He didn't just WIN against Cintron he knocked him out with a PUNCH to the FACE. Cintron could only continue, bc he was give ample time to recover from that punch. (Yes the one he complained about being a headbutt)

Martinez stole the title from Pavlik in a guts performance. He got off the convas to lacerate Pavliks face and take his belts.

Donaire on the other had went life and death with a guy who was 13-3-1 in Rafael Conception. This does NOT matter anymore, but I am just saying everyone has blemishes on their record.

1 Pacquiao
2 Martinez
3 W Klitschko
4 Marquez (he just keeps winning, why boot him?)
5 Donaire

Honorable mention: Andre Ward

No Mayweather because he hasn't fought since last May? I give a fighter one year without a fighting being scheduled before taking them off the list.

1. Pac
2. PBF
3. Maravilla
4. Donaire
5. Marquez
6. Wlad

This could be wrong. I need to think about it a bit more.

[Fenster]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Manny vs Wlad is an impossible matchup to speculate on as either reducing Wlad in size or giving Manny size changes who they are as fighters. its like saying what is stronger p4p an ant or an elephant? Certainly as a percentage of its bodyweight an any can lift hundreds of times than an elephant, but it is not physically possible for an ant to be substantially bigger than it is due to the limitations of its exoskeleton and atmospheric and gravitional pressures. An ant the size of an elephant would collapse under its own weight.

Likewise Manny as a heavyweight no longer has the speed and Wlad at welter no longer has the height, reach and size. You can argue that Wlad is good because he is big. But this is false, there are many other big guys out there but they routinely get beaten by smaller heavyweights. Big on its own is no more an advantage on its own as being fast. Skill and ability to make use of your assets is what is important and both Manny and Wlad are superb at utilising theirs.

Exactly. That is why P4P is FANTASY. There is no strict scientific method to prove you are right. There is no right or wrong.

P4P started a million years ago because the "experts" and writers recognised Sugar Ray Robinson as the worlds best practitioner of boxing, however, he would never be the KING of boxing because that mantle was held by the heavyweight champ Joe Louis, and a fight between the two would be an obvious mismatch because of the size discrepancy.

The same today with Pac-Wlad. Pac is the best fighter in the world but Wlad would kill him. It's just fun.

(before anyone says - I know P4P dates back to before Robinson )

I don't think that is a complete description of p4p as practiced today. When I (and I guess most others) try and rate people on a p4p scale I am comparing comparative acomplishments and resumes rather than imagining how they might get on against each other in a fictional matchup.

Rather than thing how Manny might do against Carl Froch I consider their achievements, their ability and their performances and determine who I think is the better fighter in terms of concrete, statistically measurable criteria.

It's perfectly possible to adhere to a set of marking criteria to come up with a fair and balanced p4p system. Yes disagreements will arise, that's part of the fun, but it is not random, or the just the whim of every person.

If you don't believe that it is possible to come up with a criteria for consistently and fairly rating fighter's acomplishments across the weight classes then how do you hope for a fair and consistent scoring system within a fight?

Judging fights is every bit as subjective but it's far from random. Just because there is no exact science to scoring doesn't mean we aren't capable of consistently judging fights with a high degree of accuracy, and indeed we get angry with judges when they make an incompetent decision. Why do we criticise them if it's just subjective and fantasy? They should be able to score how they like right?

What kind of example is that?

Scoring fights is basically a simple exercise. The fighter that lands the best punches and controls the action wins. This is the exact same for every boxing match irrelevant of the weight category. What is fantasy about it (you've lost me)?

How does that simple concept compare with an attempt to offically rate fighters from differing weight classes, who not only can't meet but have no common formlines to combine them? That is impossible.

Using your example of Calderon - you have just rubbished the records of his opponents but that still doesn't mean ability wise they are inferior boxers to fighters from any other weightclass. It doesn't prove the heavyweights, supermiddles, lightweights etc are a better crop does it? The strength of each division is constantly changing.

It still comes down to - unless two fighters actually fight you can't determine for definte who is the better, and it's utterly impossible to determine the better when they are seperated by huge size differences.

Name the strict rules to compile a definitive P4P list?

No it's not. Calderon is a different weight category to Kid Thunder but I have a fair idea who is better.

As for criteria. There are not too hard to apply. A comparison of resume's is the starting point. Recent form. A visual assessment of their strengths and weaknesses based on actually watching them. An assessment of the competitiveness of the weight classes in which they fight.

It's not really difficult.

OK.

Using your simple criteria who rates higher P4P - Pavlik or Abraham?

Not that you're asking me. It's a close call, but, I take Pavlik. Abraham's best win was against Taylor after Froch and Pavlik knocked him out. Pavlik's best win was against Taylor, but he was the first person to beat Taylor. He was also the first person to KO Miranda. Pavlik has only lost to perenial p4p boxer, Bernard Hopkins, at 170, and p4p boxer, Sergio Martinez.

Good points.

But, whatever the circumstances of their opponents at the time, both have their best wins over the same guys. They both have operated around the same opponents. Neither has been knocked out. Both are big punchers. Pavlik has never fought Froch or Dirrell and Abraham has never fought Hopkins or Martinez. So it's impossible to definitively know how each would compare against their conqueror's. However, all are respected world-class fighters.

These guys are pretty similar. It's hard to rate one above the other. Yet they are dealing in the same pool of fighters.

Now compare who is better between - Chris John and Andre Ward?

[Rantcatrat]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Fenster - question. don't you think that heavyweights that move up weight divisions - Adamek and Haye - should be considered p4p? Adamek has been a champion in two divisions and if he wins a title at heavyweight, three divisions. Haye has been a champ at two.

[Rantcatrat]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Manny vs Wlad is an impossible matchup to speculate on as either reducing Wlad in size or giving Manny size changes who they are as fighters. its like saying what is stronger p4p an ant or an elephant? Certainly as a percentage of its bodyweight an any can lift hundreds of times than an elephant, but it is not physically possible for an ant to be substantially bigger than it is due to the limitations of its exoskeleton and atmospheric and gravitional pressures. An ant the size of an elephant would collapse under its own weight.

Likewise Manny as a heavyweight no longer has the speed and Wlad at welter no longer has the height, reach and size. You can argue that Wlad is good because he is big. But this is false, there are many other big guys out there but they routinely get beaten by smaller heavyweights. Big on its own is no more an advantage on its own as being fast. Skill and ability to make use of your assets is what is important and both Manny and Wlad are superb at utilising theirs.

Exactly. That is why P4P is FANTASY. There is no strict scientific method to prove you are right. There is no right or wrong.

P4P started a million years ago because the "experts" and writers recognised Sugar Ray Robinson as the worlds best practitioner of boxing, however, he would never be the KING of boxing because that mantle was held by the heavyweight champ Joe Louis, and a fight between the two would be an obvious mismatch because of the size discrepancy.

The same today with Pac-Wlad. Pac is the best fighter in the world but Wlad would kill him. It's just fun.

(before anyone says - I know P4P dates back to before Robinson )

I don't think that is a complete description of p4p as practiced today. When I (and I guess most others) try and rate people on a p4p scale I am comparing comparative acomplishments and resumes rather than imagining how they might get on against each other in a fictional matchup.

Rather than thing how Manny might do against Carl Froch I consider their achievements, their ability and their performances and determine who I think is the better fighter in terms of concrete, statistically measurable criteria.

It's perfectly possible to adhere to a set of marking criteria to come up with a fair and balanced p4p system. Yes disagreements will arise, that's part of the fun, but it is not random, or the just the whim of every person.

If you don't believe that it is possible to come up with a criteria for consistently and fairly rating fighter's acomplishments across the weight classes then how do you hope for a fair and consistent scoring system within a fight?

Judging fights is every bit as subjective but it's far from random. Just because there is no exact science to scoring doesn't mean we aren't capable of consistently judging fights with a high degree of accuracy, and indeed we get angry with judges when they make an incompetent decision. Why do we criticise them if it's just subjective and fantasy? They should be able to score how they like right?

What kind of example is that?

Scoring fights is basically a simple exercise. The fighter that lands the best punches and controls the action wins. This is the exact same for every boxing match irrelevant of the weight category. What is fantasy about it (you've lost me)?

How does that simple concept compare with an attempt to offically rate fighters from differing weight classes, who not only can't meet but have no common formlines to combine them? That is impossible.

Using your example of Calderon - you have just rubbished the records of his opponents but that still doesn't mean ability wise they are inferior boxers to fighters from any other weightclass. It doesn't prove the heavyweights, supermiddles, lightweights etc are a better crop does it? The strength of each division is constantly changing.

It still comes down to - unless two fighters actually fight you can't determine for definte who is the better, and it's utterly impossible to determine the better when they are seperated by huge size differences.

Name the strict rules to compile a definitive P4P list?

No it's not. Calderon is a different weight category to Kid Thunder but I have a fair idea who is better.

As for criteria. There are not too hard to apply. A comparison of resume's is the starting point. Recent form. A visual assessment of their strengths and weaknesses based on actually watching them. An assessment of the competitiveness of the weight classes in which they fight.

It's not really difficult.

OK.

Using your simple criteria who rates higher P4P - Pavlik or Abraham?

Not that you're asking me. It's a close call, but, I take Pavlik. Abraham's best win was against Taylor after Froch and Pavlik knocked him out. Pavlik's best win was against Taylor, but he was the first person to beat Taylor. He was also the first person to KO Miranda. Pavlik has only lost to perenial p4p boxer, Bernard Hopkins, at 170, and p4p boxer, Sergio Martinez.

Good points.

But, whatever the circumstances of their opponents at the time, both have their best wins over the same guys. They both have operated around the same opponents. Neither has been knocked out. Both are big punchers. Pavlik has never fought Froch or Dirrell and Abraham has never fought Hopkins or Martinez. So it's impossible to definitively know how each would compare against their conqueror's. However, all are respected world-class fighters.

These guys are pretty similar. It's hard to rate one above the other. Yet they are dealing in the same pool of fighters.

Now compare who is better between - Chris John and Andre Ward?

That is tough. I would go with Chris John...maybe. Chris John has been a champion for soooo long and that has to count for something. On the other hand, he really has only two big wins in his whole career, Juan Manuel Marquez and Rocky Jaurez. John's win over Marquez is better than Ward's best win. Ward's best wins were against Kessler and Bika.

I believe Ward's style would translate at 175 and maybe even at 200. I don't believe John would be as effective at 130 or 135.

Bottom line is that right now, I'd probably go with John, but I like Ward's trajectory.

For example, if Ward beats Froch, I'd probably vote Ward.

[JonnyFolds]

Chris John is far below Andre Ward. Ward has seen enormous success against his top level opposition. Ward I hold a lot higher than most ppl. I'd compare Giovanni Segura with Chris John and that would be tough. OR Segura with Juanma... But I do I see your point Ratcantrant..

It's all relative with P4P take your best guess at it, then bash everyone else for their picks. It's what makes all of this fun for everyone.

And Mayweather will not be the same fighter after all this legal trouble. Mark my words. He is going to look very much like Pernell Whittaker after all his legal troubles. That shit catches up with you quick. I guarantee you he is not the same in the gym as he was even a year ago. He already has no love for the game. How long do you think it will take for him to have no respect for the game and come in untrained?

[Fenster]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Fenster - question. don't you think that heavyweights that move up weight divisions - Adamek and Haye - should be considered p4p? Adamek has been a champion in two divisions and if he wins a title at heavyweight, three divisions. Haye has been a champ at two.

I think that is the exception - yes.

Adamek and Haye can both be considered P4P, if they did exceptionally well at heavyweight, because they have had big success in a lighter division. I believe they should get as much credit as any fighter winning titles in multi weight classes.

[Rantcatrat]

Chris John is far below Andre Ward. Ward has seen enormous success against his top level opposition. Ward I hold a lot higher than most ppl. I'd compare Giovanni Segura with Chris John and that would be tough. OR Segura with Juanma... But I do I see your point Ratcantrant..

It's all relative with P4P take your best guess at it, then bash everyone else for their picks. It's what makes all of this fun for everyone.

And Mayweather will not be the same fighter after all this legal trouble. Mark my words. He is going to look very much like Pernell Whittaker after all his legal troubles. That shit catches up with you quick. I guarantee you he is not the same in the gym as he was even a year ago. He already has no love for the game. How long do you think it will take for him to have no respect for the game and come in untrained?

Johnny, I don't disagree. For me, that is why I say Ward has a better trajectory. I favor him against Froch and a win over Froch is big-time. John's over Yordan won't be close to as big. And wins over Froch and Kessler are marquee wins. My p4p list changes all the time.

[Fenster]

Ward has never beat a P4P fighter though. The offical record has John beating one - even if most think it was a robbery. But this is about provable scientific reasoning not opinion, right?

Beating a P4P star has to be a big boost to your own P4P credentials, right?

[:::PSL:::]

New Ring Mag ratings

Boxing Ratings | RingTV

[Kev]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Manny vs Wlad is an impossible matchup to speculate on as either reducing Wlad in size or giving Manny size changes who they are as fighters. its like saying what is stronger p4p an ant or an elephant? Certainly as a percentage of its bodyweight an any can lift hundreds of times than an elephant, but it is not physically possible for an ant to be substantially bigger than it is due to the limitations of its exoskeleton and atmospheric and gravitional pressures. An ant the size of an elephant would collapse under its own weight.

Likewise Manny as a heavyweight no longer has the speed and Wlad at welter no longer has the height, reach and size. You can argue that Wlad is good because he is big. But this is false, there are many other big guys out there but they routinely get beaten by smaller heavyweights. Big on its own is no more an advantage on its own as being fast. Skill and ability to make use of your assets is what is important and both Manny and Wlad are superb at utilising theirs.

Exactly. That is why P4P is FANTASY. There is no strict scientific method to prove you are right. There is no right or wrong.

P4P started a million years ago because the "experts" and writers recognised Sugar Ray Robinson as the worlds best practitioner of boxing, however, he would never be the KING of boxing because that mantle was held by the heavyweight champ Joe Louis, and a fight between the two would be an obvious mismatch because of the size discrepancy.

The same today with Pac-Wlad. Pac is the best fighter in the world but Wlad would kill him. It's just fun.

(before anyone says - I know P4P dates back to before Robinson )

I don't think that is a complete description of p4p as practiced today. When I (and I guess most others) try and rate people on a p4p scale I am comparing comparative acomplishments and resumes rather than imagining how they might get on against each other in a fictional matchup.

Rather than thing how Manny might do against Carl Froch I consider their achievements, their ability and their performances and determine who I think is the better fighter in terms of concrete, statistically measurable criteria.

It's perfectly possible to adhere to a set of marking criteria to come up with a fair and balanced p4p system. Yes disagreements will arise, that's part of the fun, but it is not random, or the just the whim of every person.

If you don't believe that it is possible to come up with a criteria for consistently and fairly rating fighter's acomplishments across the weight classes then how do you hope for a fair and consistent scoring system within a fight?

Judging fights is every bit as subjective but it's far from random. Just because there is no exact science to scoring doesn't mean we aren't capable of consistently judging fights with a high degree of accuracy, and indeed we get angry with judges when they make an incompetent decision. Why do we criticise them if it's just subjective and fantasy? They should be able to score how they like right?

What kind of example is that?

Scoring fights is basically a simple exercise. The fighter that lands the best punches and controls the action wins. This is the exact same for every boxing match irrelevant of the weight category. What is fantasy about it (you've lost me)?

How does that simple concept compare with an attempt to offically rate fighters from differing weight classes, who not only can't meet but have no common formlines to combine them? That is impossible.

Using your example of Calderon - you have just rubbished the records of his opponents but that still doesn't mean ability wise they are inferior boxers to fighters from any other weightclass. It doesn't prove the heavyweights, supermiddles, lightweights etc are a better crop does it? The strength of each division is constantly changing.

It still comes down to - unless two fighters actually fight you can't determine for definte who is the better, and it's utterly impossible to determine the better when they are seperated by huge size differences.

Name the strict rules to compile a definitive P4P list?

No it's not. Calderon is a different weight category to Kid Thunder but I have a fair idea who is better.

As for criteria. There are not too hard to apply. A comparison of resume's is the starting point. Recent form. A visual assessment of their strengths and weaknesses based on actually watching them. An assessment of the competitiveness of the weight classes in which they fight.

It's not really difficult.

OK.

Using your simple criteria who rates higher P4P - Pavlik or Abraham?

Not that you're asking me. It's a close call, but, I take Pavlik. Abraham's best win was against Taylor after Froch and Pavlik knocked him out. Pavlik's best win was against Taylor, but he was the first person to beat Taylor. He was also the first person to KO Miranda. Pavlik has only lost to perenial p4p boxer, Bernard Hopkins, at 170, and p4p boxer, Sergio Martinez.

Good points.

But, whatever the circumstances of their opponents at the time, both have their best wins over the same guys. They both have operated around the same opponents. Neither has been knocked out. Both are big punchers. Pavlik has never fought Froch or Dirrell and Abraham has never fought Hopkins or Martinez. So it's impossible to definitively know how each would compare against their conqueror's. However, all are respected world-class fighters.

These guys are pretty similar. It's hard to rate one above the other. Yet they are dealing in the same pool of fighters.

Now compare who is better between - Chris John and Andre Ward?

You're actually demonstrating my point here. You deliberately picked these two as you know they have similar records. How do you know this? Because you are judging them and comparing according to the sort of criteria you are claiming doesn't exist.

All this example shows is that ranking fighters is not a fantasy. On the contrary you automatically asuumed us to be unanimous in agreeing with you that it would be hard to pick between these two fighters.

I agree, it is a close call. And we are all unanimous in agreeing that because are were all consciously or unconsiously using the same criteria to judge them.

Have a good day.

[Julius Rain]

Tim has Nonito third. I wonder who he has as second p4p.

[:::PSL:::]

..... let's not get carried away.

getting carried away is putting donaire at no. 2. imo he deserve to move at least a position up the p4p ranking.

Even I won't argue against a number 4 ranking now. He's fought the two fighters regarded as the best opposition out there at that time and totally smashed them. I don't think anybody else has done that lately. Martinez hasn't, Bradley, Marquez, Lopez, Ward etc.

Only Pacquaio has been toppling top guys as impressively.

How could Martinez recent opposition have been better? He completely outclassed the top fighters in two divisions.

His opposition has been steller but he hasn't destroyed them the way Donaire has. He lost the first fight with Williams, fought to a draw with Kermit Cintron (yes I know it was bullshit).

Meanwhile Donaire has wrecked his opposition, completely sparking them like Martinez did in the Williams rematch.

I think Martinez is 1-1-1 in his last three fights?

Oh he did beat Pavlik too. But again it was a competive fight until down the stretch and it went to the cards. Not a demolition like Donaire did tonight and against Vic.

No love for Maritnez?? Why are you trying SO hard to discredit what the man has done? Don't even act like you know he was going to spark Williams in the rematch. I called that and nobody was with me. He didn't just WIN against Cintron he knocked him out with a PUNCH to the FACE. Cintron could only continue, bc he was give ample time to recover from that punch. (Yes the one he complained about being a headbutt)

Martinez stole the title from Pavlik in a guts performance. He got off the convas to lacerate Pavliks face and take his belts.

Donaire on the other had went life and death with a guy who was 13-3-1 in Rafael Conception. This does NOT matter anymore, but I am just saying everyone has blemishes on their record.

1 Pacquiao
2 Martinez
3 W Klitschko
4 Marquez (he just keeps winning, why boot him?)
5 Donaire

Honorable mention: Andre Ward

Concepcion was 4.5 lbs overweight at the weigh-in. And Donaire won by UD.

[Julius Rain]

Ward favors Nonito over Juanma!?