~ A Message to Referee Marlon B. Wright ~ (Ref. for Andrade-Bute)

[JonnyFolds]

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

[ICB]

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

Bute walked to his corner fine after the fight, so how couldn't he have taken 2 steps forward ? plus Taylor did actually respond to Steele, he nodded his head then looked at his corner and by the time he looked back. The fight was over because Steele gave Taylor no chance to respond.

Plus Steele broke the rules by not checking Chavez was in the neutral corner, when he clearly wasn't. Plus his count was super quick like he was trying to count Taylor out which was ridiculous. Its obvious he was favoring Chavez like he had favored over Don King fighters in the past.

Im not saying the ref in the Bute fight wasn't favoring Bute, but he didn't actually break any rules to my knowledge. And the ref making sure Andrade is in the neutral corner may sound ridiculous, to everyone else but thats in the rules and he didn't break any rules by doing so. Andrade slightly walked out of his corner so he has to take some blame for that.

Im not saying it was right for the ref to tell off Andrade like that, because Andrade was in the neutral corner although he slightly walked out of the neutral corner. But this is all irrelvant because the time in the round was over, so Andrade had no chance to finish Bute. And had the ref stopped the fight with no time left in the fight that would of been a bigger robbery than Taylor vs Chavez IMO. I still think this controversy is being overrated, when i see this thread i was expecting one of the biggest crimes ever in boxing history.

But when i watched the fight myself, i was actually shocked because i didn't see anything bad. Other than the ref telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner, but that was irrelvant because the time in the fight was over.

[Kev]

Bute could never have taken 2 steps forward after an 8 count.

Going back to JCC Taylor, the ref (God bless Richard Steele) asked Taylor if he was ok... he didn't respond... had Taylor responded, he woudl have told him to take a couple steps forward. Had he done that he would have won the fight. Unfortunately fro him, he was staring at his corner wondering why they were in hysterics.

Bute would not have been able to do either of these. If this is a sanctioned title fight (which it is); I think there should be an appeal made to change it to a NC. THAT is how up in arms I am about this.

First off the Meldrick Taylor stoppage was a robbery plain and simple.

Second you simply cannot state as a matter of fact that Bute couldn't respond.

He did what was asked of him. He got up before 10 seconds had elapsed. (I'm not talking about the ref's 10 seconds i'm talking about the real 10 seconds) so he made it to the end.

You miss the point that the fight was over at this point. All Bute had to do was stand up. It sounds like you are trying to suggest the referee should have counted Bute out of the fight because YOU think he was unable to continue even though the fight was over.

If you want the referee to be so pedantic and picky that he would stick to a ruling and say the fighter must be counted out because he's in no position to fight, even though the fight was over and he wouldn't need to fight then how can you contradict yourself and say he should have exercised a common sense approach to Bute not going back to the neutral corner?


If according to the strictest interperation of the rules Bute should have been stopped because he was unable to fight on (even though I don't agree) then according the the strictest interperation of the rules Andrade didn't go straight to the neutral corner and so delayed the count, and then he walked away from the corner and so further delayed the count.

Do I think Marlon was over pedantic to delay the count, yes I do. It was a bad call. BUT it would have been an even worse call to KO Bute when he was up at 10 and the fight was over!

Watch the replays. When Bute went down there were 3 seconds on the clock. He got up at 9 so the fight is over, even without the extra 15 seconds of delay.

So yes. the ref handled it poorly imo, but the right guy one the fight and Andrade's rally came too late.

If anything this has helped Andrade imo. If the ref hadn't made the delayed count, Bute would have got up and the fight would have been over without controversy, (at least as to who one).

This delayed count has given Andrade ammunition for a rematch, which I think we all really want to see.

But in my opinion the right man got the win.

[bcollins]

Hell with it - let's just have a rematch.

With a different ref.

[awdleyfuturehalloffamer]

bute stumbled to his corner, like a drunkard after the ref stopped the figth. He did not walk to his corner fine.

[CFH]

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

[Mikkel_K]

This is a genuine question, where in the IBF rules does it state that following a KD at the end of the fight the fighter must take steps forward etc. to prove he can continue? The only relevant rule I have seen is (I think) rule 6, which states that if I fighter is KD'd at the end of the fight the count will continue until his gloves leave the canvas.

My understanding is that it follows directly from the 'cannot be saved by the bell in any round rule'; i.e. a fighter must be fit to continue, even if there is no actual time left on the clock (and the rule 6, you mention also states that the fight was not over at the 3min mark).

Personally I dont think Andrade necessarily won that fight, because none of us actually know what would have happened if the count had been done properly, and Bute been asked to step forward and clear hands. He was up before the 10 count, even without Wright's sheananigans, but he certainly did not look like he could walk forward to me. In any case the referee did handle this absolutely terrible, robbing us from knowing who really should have won.

As for Bilbo's comments that being pedantic in one are should lead to refs being pedantic in others (or then not at all), well there is a helluva difference between a ref protecting the fighters in the ring - his job - and a ref nitpicking technicalities. One thing might cost a fighter his life, the other... not so much.

Finally, I disagree with the notion that it would have been controversial in any case (a view I saw Dan Rafael subscribe to too btw). If the fight had been stopped before the knockdown, and yes I do think a case can be made for this, then absolutely it would have been controversial. If the fight was stopped because Lucian Bute received a count, was asked to walk forward and clear hands and failed to do this, then it might have been dramatic, but surely it wouldnt be controversial.

[CFH]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

[CutMeMick]

first off how in the hell did the ref help Lucian Bute early on ? yes he let Lucian Bute hold a bit too much, but he wasn't clinching that much

Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there...

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

What i was basically saying is that you was making a big deal, out of the holding like its one of the worst things ever witnessed in the sport. He let him hold a bit too much which i agree on, but its hardly like it was helping or would have changed the outcome of the fight. And its hardly like Bute was clinching all the time was it ? and Andrade was also allowed to get away with fouls on the inside especially using his elbows, and he was never warned for that. So like i said it works both ways doesn't it ?

Are you serious ICB?
What do you mean it wouldn't have changed it?
It was clear and IT'S clear that Bute cannot fight on the inside.
So yes, YES it would have changed the fight because Andrade would have landed many more punches would the inside figthting had not been stopped by Bute holding.
For you to say it wouldn't have changed the fight is way off because it was clear that Andrade did his best work on the inside.

[Mr140]

Cut people always hold i mean that not that big of issuse i mean come on he let him hold you sound like the he is first ref to let a fighter hold. And according to cfh the rules let Bute have the win i watch the fight he was off the canvas and made the count and he won the fight get over it.

[ICB]

Somehow I'm dumbfounded by this...
I read this about 35 times and I just couldn't get past it.
Looks like you just went in circles there...

Either I'm an idiot or your trying to sneak one past me, cause everytime I read that I found myself scratching my head and starting over with "First off..."

At one point in the 35 readings I found myself agreeing with you just cause I was confused with the 1st part of it...

Anyone else having this problem or Am I the only one?

What i was basically saying is that you was making a big deal, out of the holding like its one of the worst things ever witnessed in the sport. He let him hold a bit too much which i agree on, but its hardly like it was helping or would have changed the outcome of the fight. And its hardly like Bute was clinching all the time was it ? and Andrade was also allowed to get away with fouls on the inside especially using his elbows, and he was never warned for that. So like i said it works both ways doesn't it ?

Are you serious ICB?
What do you mean it wouldn't have changed it?
It was clear and IT'S clear that Bute cannot fight on the inside.
So yes, YES it would have changed the fight because Andrade would have landed many more punches would the inside figthting had not been stopped by Bute holding.
For you to say it wouldn't have changed the fight is way off because it was clear that Andrade did his best work on the inside.

Yes im serious Lucian Bute wasn't clinching as much as your making out, he wasn't exactly clinching to the point of taking a point away or etc. I didn't really see anything wrong with it to be honest.

Lucian Bute was clinching more in the later stages when he started to tire, to stop Librado's Andrade inside work. But theres nothing wrong in that. Evander Holyfield done exactly the samething against Mike Tyson in there 1st fight, but he done it much more frequently than Lucian Bute did.

I really don't see why your making such a big deal out of it, no offense its your opinion and i respect that. But i didn't see anything wrong with Lucian Bute's clinching its not like it was frequent, the only thing i disliked was the ref telling off Librado Andrade about clinching later on in the fight which was ridiculous. But that was only once or twice in the entire fight i believe so it made no difference.

[Fenster]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

[CFH]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

[Fenster]

I am admittedly not an expert, but to me, the rule seems to imply that the fighter has survived the possibility a knock out once his gloves clear the floor.

"The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout.If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor."

Once his hands clear the floor and the bell right, the fight is over and the "downed" fighter has survived. At least that's how it seems to me.

Obviously the ref was biased towards Bute, but, upon reflection, I feel that the decision at the end of the fight was justified (regardless of the "back to the neutral corner" bullshit) as Bute had made it to his feet prior to a legitimate 10 count. However, their is sufficient doubt that a rematch must be ordered in a neutral setting.

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

[CFH]

I'm pretty certain you're right mate. He beat the count which means he finished the fight. There's nothing about having to walk forward.

Imagine the uproar if a ref stopped a fighter on his feet AFTER the fight had finished

That would have been a travesty IMO.

I do certainly agree with those who criticism the ref, and while Andrade did get away with a few fouls, Bute was allowed to hold, grab Andrade's legs etc. all fight long. That, combined with the disputed finale to the fight, is enough for me to think a rematch is justified.

I think the rule makes sense.

I didn't think Bute was in a fit state to continue (maybe could have been stopped before the knockdown). But you can't deem a fighter unfit to fight AFTER a contest has ended.

The ref was poor. Andrade was unlucky.

Again, we are in complete agreement. If there was even ten seconds left in the fight, then stop it, but the bell had rang and the fight had ended when Bute made it to his feet and his gloves had cleared the canvas.

I think with a different ref there may well have been a different outcome as Bute would not have been allowed to hold/foul all night, but I think the decision as the end of the fight not to call a TKO on Bute was completely correct.

I want to see a rematch so we can put all these questions to bed.