Israel at it again

[Kev]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

I have a serious question for you here, I'm not trying to bait you or anything. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Even though my sympathies might lie with the Palestinians, I would not want to see Israel destroyed or the citizens of that country experience any further hardship. Impossibly as it is, I would like to see a solution which allowed both sides to live in peace. I don't think that one needs to be hold an extremist view to sympathize with the Palestinian Arabs.

There's a brilliant chapter on this in Melanie Philips new book the The World Turned Upside Down. It arrived this morning and I'm just thumbing through it now. Amazing how actual history has been distorted to such a degree. Looks like it's going to be a fascinating book. Looks like it's going to be a brilliant and polarizing read.

I always respect your writing style Josh, carefully considered and thoughtful rather than the tiresome, ill conceived and vapid rants of the ignorant that tend to predominate much of this forum.

[CFH]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

I have a serious question for you here, I'm not trying to bait you or anything. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Even though my sympathies might lie with the Palestinians, I would not want to see Israel destroyed or the citizens of that country experience any further hardship. Impossibly as it is, I would like to see a solution which allowed both sides to live in peace. I don't think that one needs to be hold an extremist view to sympathize with the Palestinian Arabs.

There's a brilliant chapter on this in Melanie Philips new book the The World Turned Upside Down. It arrived this morning and I'm just thumbing through it now. Amazing how actual history has been distorted to such a degree. Looks like it's going to be a fascinating book. Looks like it's going to be a brilliant and polarizing read.

I always respect your writing style Josh, carefully considered and thoughtful rather than the tiresome, ill conceived and vapid rants of the ignorant that tend to predominate much of this forum.

That is also the name of a great Billy Bragg song.

So what does Philips argue in that chapter? Just by looking at the book's description on Amazon, it seems like it would be a very right-wing, neo-Con argument. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

It sounds like an interesting book, and honestly one that I would probably disagree with in almost every way But that's just inference based on reading a review which makes the author sound like a bit of a neo-Con nutjob.

Edit: Here's the review:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n09/jenny-diski/short-cuts

[Kev]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

I have a serious question for you here, I'm not trying to bait you or anything. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Even though my sympathies might lie with the Palestinians, I would not want to see Israel destroyed or the citizens of that country experience any further hardship. Impossibly as it is, I would like to see a solution which allowed both sides to live in peace. I don't think that one needs to be hold an extremist view to sympathize with the Palestinian Arabs.

There's a brilliant chapter on this in Melanie Philips new book the The World Turned Upside Down. It arrived this morning and I'm just thumbing through it now. Amazing how actual history has been distorted to such a degree. Looks like it's going to be a fascinating book. Looks like it's going to be a brilliant and polarizing read.

I always respect your writing style Josh, carefully considered and thoughtful rather than the tiresome, ill conceived and vapid rants of the ignorant that tend to predominate much of this forum.

That is also the name of a great Billy Bragg song.

So what does Philips argue in that chapter? Just by looking at the book's description on Amazon, it seems like it would be a very right-wing, neo-Con argument. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

It sounds like an interesting book, and honestly one that I would probably disagree with in almost every way But that's just inference based on reading a review which makes the author sound like a bit of a neo-Con nutjob.

Edit: Here's the review:

LRB · Jenny Diski · Short Cuts

Yep definitely! But I think that's why it makes great reading, to see both sides. Attacks on her from the liberals are usually pretty scathing. It's essentially a clash of two ideologies. It's definitely worth reading if you get the time though as it's a defence to her own world view and I always think both sides need to be read and understood on everything.

[RozzySean]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

Who are the Spurs?

Hopefully not Tottenham Hotspur fans, I hate Tottenham.

Of course you do...that goes without saying. Hence, my desire for you to meet up with a few members of the Yid Army in a a dark alley.

[RozzySean]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

I have a serious question for you here, I'm not trying to bait you or anything. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Even though my sympathies might lie with the Palestinians, I would not want to see Israel destroyed or the citizens of that country experience any further hardship. Impossibly as it is, I would like to see a solution which allowed both sides to live in peace. I don't think that one needs to be hold an extremist view to sympathize with the Palestinian Arabs.

Listen, I sympathize with Palestinian Arabs. They have gotten the shaft from everybody, including there own leaders. Agree or disagree over whether Israel should have been created in the first place, but there is no doubt that Palestinian Arabs have suffered more than anybody because most of the Arab world will not recognize Israel and periodically tries to destroy it.

If the rest of Arab world took a chill pill, recognized Israel, and helped out the peace process by letting go of the idea of right of return, we could have peace pretty soon. This will not happen, however, because oppressive Arab dictatorships love the conflict. It allows them to easily scapegoat the Jews and channel the people's anger way from them. Just look at Iran. Iran under the Shah was oppressive pro-west regime with relatively friendly relationship to Israel. It was overthrown by Muslim extremists. The people got mad and overthrew the Shan. Iran now is an oppressive anti-west regime hostile to Israel. People get mad and blame the zionists. Why would Iran be interested in doing the right thing?

[Gandalf]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

Who are the Spurs?

Hopefully not Tottenham Hotspur fans, I hate Tottenham.

Of course you do...that goes without saying. Hence, my desire for you to meet up with a few members of the Yid Army in a a dark alley.

I dislike all London teams, it has nothing to do with Jews. I didn't even know for sure you were talking about Spurs until doing a quick search.

I would like to make quite clear that I am not an anti-semite. I don't believe the state of Israel has strong foundations and was poorly concieved, but it's there and I accept this, just as I accept that American now belongs to the Americans. My main issues with Israel come from arguments I have put forward throughout this thread. You yourself accept that Palestinians have recieved 'the shaft', but that is not the entire fault of neighbors, Israel has played it's own massive role in the Palestians misery as well. And continues to do so. Now if thinking that the Israeli government is immoral and is all too willing to carry out acts that cast is as a rogue state makes me an anti semite, then cool. But that just reflects your own ignorance. Jewish people have contributed a lot to the world and I very much look up to the rational ones and frown up upon the right wing extremists amongst them. In fact my arguments are very much in line with people like Finkelstein and Chomsky (both Jews), would you call them anti semites? Or is it simply that you didn't like me saying Yuri Foreman should lose?

[Nameless]

Recipe for Peace in the Middle East:

* Palestinian authorities saying they would accept to recognize the State of Israel (they said they would be open to such ideas under some conditions, looks possible to me)
* Put a Gag Ball to Amadinejad and send him play Golf on a desert Island
* Israel stopping the colonies everywhere in Gaza and Cisjordanie and dismantling their wall of shame, going back to the 1967 borders.
* Israel holding back their Hasidim nutsacks
* Other Arabian countries giving the Palestinian Authorities the necessary support to hold up the freaks that would do anything to bomb off the peace process because they are too lose and they think they saw the light.
* Putting some independent inspectors (UE blue helmet) to help to stir up what's going on if ever something goes wrong so we can have a neutral idea on the topic.

If we could achieve all that (i.e a damn friggin lot), that would be already extremely good.

[Gandalf]

Recipe for Peace in the Middle East:

* Palestinian authorities saying they would accept to recognize the State of Israel (they said they would be open to such ideas under some conditions, looks possible to me)
* Put a Gag Ball to Amadinejad and send him play Golf on a desert Island
* Israel stopping the colonies everywhere in Gaza and Cisjordanie and dismantling their wall of shame, going back to the 1967 borders.
* Israel holding back their Hasidim nutsacks
* Other Arabian countries giving the Palestinian Authorities the necessary support to hold up the freaks that would do anything to bomb off the peace process because they are too lose and they think they saw the light.
* Putting some independent inspectors (UE blue helmet) to help to stir up what's going on if ever something goes wrong so we can have a neutral idea on the topic.

If we could achieve all that (i.e a damn friggin lot), that would be already extremely good.

Exactly, peace is potentially possible. But which nation/nations have rejected or proven less than willing to go the limits in providing peace. It falls back on Israel and ultimately America who is unwilling to force the issue. You can invade countless nations and back numerous coups against governments you don't like and yet this one thing is unable to be forced. America simply will not get fully involved in this one issue. Everything else they will either pressure or force, but this? Just let it fester. It is almost like they are complicit in Israel's long term aims.

[Kev]

Recipe for Peace in the Middle East:

* Palestinian authorities saying they would accept to recognize the State of Israel (they said they would be open to such ideas under some conditions, looks possible to me)
* Put a Gag Ball to Amadinejad and send him play Golf on a desert Island
* Israel stopping the colonies everywhere in Gaza and Cisjordanie and dismantling their wall of shame, going back to the 1967 borders.
* Israel holding back their Hasidim nutsacks
* Other Arabian countries giving the Palestinian Authorities the necessary support to hold up the freaks that would do anything to bomb off the peace process because they are too lose and they think they saw the light.
* Putting some independent inspectors (UE blue helmet) to help to stir up what's going on if ever something goes wrong so we can have a neutral idea on the topic.

If we could achieve all that (i.e a damn friggin lot), that would be already extremely good.

Exactly, peace is potentially possible. But which nation/nations have rejected or proven less than willing to go the limits in providing peace. It falls back on Israel and ultimately America who is unwilling to force the issue. You can invade countless nations and back numerous coups against governments you don't like and yet this one thing is unable to be forced. America simply will not get fully involved in this one issue. Everything else they will either pressure or force, but this? Just let it fester. It is almost like they are complicit in Israel's long term aims.

The only terms the Arabs would accept regarding Israel would be their emigration out of the Middle East. Where you like them to go Miles?

[Gandalf]

Recipe for Peace in the Middle East:

* Palestinian authorities saying they would accept to recognize the State of Israel (they said they would be open to such ideas under some conditions, looks possible to me)
* Put a Gag Ball to Amadinejad and send him play Golf on a desert Island
* Israel stopping the colonies everywhere in Gaza and Cisjordanie and dismantling their wall of shame, going back to the 1967 borders.
* Israel holding back their Hasidim nutsacks
* Other Arabian countries giving the Palestinian Authorities the necessary support to hold up the freaks that would do anything to bomb off the peace process because they are too lose and they think they saw the light.
* Putting some independent inspectors (UE blue helmet) to help to stir up what's going on if ever something goes wrong so we can have a neutral idea on the topic.

If we could achieve all that (i.e a damn friggin lot), that would be already extremely good.

Exactly, peace is potentially possible. But which nation/nations have rejected or proven less than willing to go the limits in providing peace. It falls back on Israel and ultimately America who is unwilling to force the issue. You can invade countless nations and back numerous coups against governments you don't like and yet this one thing is unable to be forced. America simply will not get fully involved in this one issue. Everything else they will either pressure or force, but this? Just let it fester. It is almost like they are complicit in Israel's long term aims.

The only terms the Arabs would accept regarding Israel would be their emigration out of the Middle East. Where you like them to go Miles?

Do your research Bilbo. The points Nameless made come from the existing literature and are well covered. Israel can remain, but they must cede their illegal aquisitions and be forced by the international community to follow and adhere international law. Also watch the interview I posted with Hamas earlier in this thread. The windows are all there. The only drawback on settling the issue FAIRLY has been the reluctance of both the Americans and most importantly the Israeli's who rejected the most recent proposals. It hasn't come up again since and has slid way off the agenda in the wake of continued Israeli terrorist attacks.

[Gandalf]

Better than nothing, I guess. Still, how are the Palestinians going to build infrastructure when the Israeli's continue to ban simple things like cement? Hmm....

Barack Obama announces $400m aid package to Gaza | World news | The Guardian

[RozzySean]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

Who are the Spurs?

Hopefully not Tottenham Hotspur fans, I hate Tottenham.

Of course you do...that goes without saying. Hence, my desire for you to meet up with a few members of the Yid Army in a a dark alley.

I dislike all London teams, it has nothing to do with Jews. I didn't even know for sure you were talking about Spurs until doing a quick search.

I would like to make quite clear that I am not an anti-semite. I don't believe the state of Israel has strong foundations and was poorly concieved, but it's there and I accept this, just as I accept that American now belongs to the Americans. My main issues with Israel come from arguments I have put forward throughout this thread. You yourself accept that Palestinians have recieved 'the shaft', but that is not the entire fault of neighbors, Israel has played it's own massive role in the Palestians misery as well. And continues to do so. Now if thinking that the Israeli government is immoral and is all too willing to carry out acts that cast is as a rogue state makes me an anti semite, then cool. But that just reflects your own ignorance. Jewish people have contributed a lot to the world and I very much look up to the rational ones and frown up upon the right wing extremists amongst them. In fact my arguments are very much in line with people like Finkelstein and Chomsky (both Jews), would you call them anti semites? Or is it simply that you didn't like me saying Yuri Foreman should lose?

Don't even mention the nut-job Chomsky. Bobby Fischer was also a Jew, and his insane self loathing cause him to become one step down from a neo-nazi. And I never picked up you saying that Yuri would lose. That has nothing to do with this. I believe that in your own mind, you don't see yourself as an anti-semite. You are one of many subtle, passive anti-semites. You hold Israel to a high moral standard than other countries, and part of his is based on your believe that Israel was founded on shaky grounds. This point, which you admit, is key. Lots of countries have been founded on shaky ground. No other country has been expected to up with the bullshit Israel is asked to put up with. Why is Israeli asked to so this? Because on a deep, almost subconscious level, "The Jews" are pulling the strings. You assign more control and more blame to a mythic idea that "The Jews" have lots of control over the media, banking, world politics, etc. It don't register in your brain, but you've picked it up - from news out lets, old relatives, and muslim friends.

This is the bottom line of my argument. Israel is now and has been, taking ALL the blame for Palinstinian suffering. They certain have hand in it, and they have certainly made some poor choices. They get called to the carpet EVERY FRICKIN' TIME they do something that seems heavy handed. On the other hand, I don't seen anybody else getting blamed for the mess. I don't see any self-rightious indignation directed at other players in the show. They save all that for Israel and pretty much everybody else gets a free pass. When some of that self-righeous indignation is aimed at the other player, and when the Hamas is willing to accept the existance of Israel, I'll chill out.

[Gandalf]

Chomsky is only a nutjob in the eyes of the type of people that worship at the altar of the notorious liar Alan Derwshowitz. Your argument goes out the window with a blase statement like that. Why in your eyes is Chomsky a nutjob? Because he presents the history of modern Israeli politics and foreign policy with cold hard facts, followed by facts and yet more facts and you don't like it?

I am not an anti semite, so don't even try to judge me or pretend to have any kind of insight into how I operate. I look at the continual violations of international law and the total disregard of Palestinian human rights and call it for what it is. We only need to look at recent actions to see the type of state we are dealing with. In the last few years alone:

1 - Forged international passports to commit an assasination
2 - Revealed that they tried to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid S.A.
3 - Continued to build illegal settlements
4 - Continual denial of basic human rights for Palestians within Israeli borders
5 - Attacked Gaza killing well over a thousand whilst targeting public buildings and attacking civilians. Also used white phosphorous which is illegal.
6 - Attacked a flotilla carrying international aid killing 9 and injuring dozens.
7 - Continues to refuse Gazan's access to basics such as water, refuses even concrete with which reconstruction can begin again.
8 - Shooting dead of Palestinians on a weekly basis.


You know I am sure I have missed plenty in my haste, but someone like Nameless will be able to add to my basic list. Now to disagree with these actions qualifies me as an anti semite? I couldn't give a rats ass about Jews in global business nor any of that crap. What I am concerned with is the here and now regarding Israeli foreign policy and the continued persecution of the Palestinian people. It's a cowards argument to say someone is an anti semite. Just like it is a coward that says of an Obama critic "You must be racist". Fine, you don't like what I say. Well let's debate it, but to resort to base tags and insults is spineless. Debate it like a man without the veiled threats of violence. Not everyone needs to operate like a right wing Israeli government.

And since when does Israel "take all the blame for the Palestinian suffering"? Historically it has always been pretty biased in the Israeli favour, certainly within the US press. I don't get where your sense of persecution is coming from there. Admittedly things have taken a recent turn for the better, but still a few voices trying to cover up Israeli atrocities.

When Israel is willing to settle for peace in the region and stops trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians in the longest slow burn ever, I will have no reason to keep on ranting. Israel has the right to exist, but it's leaders need to move away from the American style expansionism and violations of law. Likewise, it would be nice for Hamas to go a little more easy, but you have to understand where they are coming from. Israel continues to steal land, shoot dead citizens and blockades both the sky and ocean. How the hell is peace to ever develop in such a climate? It is preposterous not to mention wholly illegitimate. The way things stand, I don't see much of a white flag from Israel and the way things stand why should the Palestinians lose ALL their dignity and wave theirs for a compromise option that will no doubt result in the confiscation of illegally gained lands. Israel is the one that will need to make serious concessions if there is ever to be peace.

[Nameless]

Chomsky is only a nutjob in the eyes of the type of people that worship at the altar of the notorious liar Alan Derwshowitz. Your argument goes out the window with a blase statement like that. Why in your eyes is Chomsky a nutjob? Because he presents the history of modern Israeli politics and foreign policy with cold hard facts, followed by facts and yet more facts and you don't like it?

I am not an anti semite, so don't even try to judge me or pretend to have any kind of insight into how I operate. I look at the continual violations of international law and the total disregard of Palestinian human rights and call it for what it is. We only need to look at recent actions to see the type of state we are dealing with. In the last few years alone:

1 - Forged international passports to commit an assasination
2 - Revealed that they tried to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid S.A.
3 - Continued to build illegal settlements
4 - Continual denial of basic human rights for Palestians within Israeli borders
5 - Attacked Gaza killing well over a thousand whilst targeting public buildings and attacking civilians. Also used white phosphorous which is illegal.
6 - Attacked a flotilla carrying international aid killing 9 and injuring dozens.
7 - Continues to refuse Gazan's access to basics such as water, refuses even concrete with which reconstruction can begin again.
8 - Shooting dead of Palestinians on a weekly basis.


You know I am sure I have missed plenty in my haste, but someone like Nameless will be able to add to my basic list. Now to disagree with these actions qualifies me as an anti semite? I couldn't give a rats ass about Jews in global business nor any of that crap. What I am concerned with is the here and now regarding Israeli foreign policy and the continued persecution of the Palestinian people. It's a cowards argument to say someone is an anti semite. Just like it is a coward that says of an Obama critic "You must be racist". Fine, you don't like what I say. Well let's debate it, but to resort to base tags and insults is spineless. Debate it like a man without the veiled threats of violence. Not everyone needs to operate like a right wing Israeli government.

And since when does Israel "take all the blame for the Palestinian suffering"? Historically it has always been pretty biased in the Israeli favour, certainly within the US press. I don't get where your sense of persecution is coming from there. Admittedly things have taken a recent turn for the better, but still a few voices trying to cover up Israeli atrocities.

When Israel is willing to settle for peace in the region and stops trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians in the longest slow burn ever, I will have no reason to keep on ranting. Israel has the right to exist, but it's leaders need to move away from the American style expansionism and violations of law. Likewise, it would be nice for Hamas to go a little more easy, but you have to understand where they are coming from. Israel continues to steal land, shoot dead citizens and blockades both the sky and ocean. How the hell is peace to ever develop in such a climate? It is preposterous not to mention wholly illegitimate. The way things stand, I don't see much of a white flag from Israel and the way things stand why should the Palestinians lose ALL their dignity and wave theirs for a compromise option that will no doubt result in the confiscation of illegally gained lands. Israel is the one that will need to make serious concessions if there is ever to be peace.

I loathe and despise that guy eternally with visceral hate. Have you seen the debate he did have with Finkelstein with Amy Gutman as "referee"? He got shattered like an old window and his book has been debunked as being a major copy of another book that was highly criticized for its biased arguments and Fallacious pretentions. Finkelstein did read each footnote and proved that a couple of them were modified (like changing 300 000 refugees for 3000) and other variables, it was obvious how Dershewitz didn't expect it and has been quite embarrassed on a few occasions.