Are you for or against intervening in Syria?

[Kirkland Laing]

He may manage to get all of Syria's chemical weapons destroyed without firing a shot. That seems to me to be a pretty good outcome.

And Syria are going to be one of the last few countries to sign the international treaty that bans chemical weapons. Now that Obama has got Syria to sign does anybody think he'll put pressure to sign it on other rogue nations like North Korea and Israel?

[walrus]

with all due respect, Obama lost face in the international community. Obama is Carter no. 2 how can you call Israel a rogue nation. There enemies will not negotiate until Israel is driven into the sea. Putin sells Five billions a year in weapons to Syria. Syria will maintain stockpiles and Putin will make sure of that.

[Gandalf]

Israel is clearly a rogue state. Just look at the siege of Gaza and the Flotilla massacre as obvious examples. Israel is CLEARLY a rogue state and is funded and supported by the worlds leading financier of rogue states, Captain Rogue America.

I think what has been shown is that Assad has still not been proven to be the chemical attacker and so having to give up chemical weapons is hypocritical considering that America is not doing so and it isn't even being suggested that Israel should do so either. Simply owning chemical weapons is a crime under international law and so how you can have America who has used nukes and chemical weapons have anything to do with this is an absurdity.

The entire issue is a joke. Walrus, I agree with you that Obama looks like a joke, but America has had no face for decades now. America in the eyes of global opinion is the menace. Just look at opinion polls from different countries and their attitudes towards America. Putin sells weapons to Syria. Well, Obama funds Israel and Egypt amongst others, has hundreds of military bases in dozens of countries. Assad has commited crimes, but no worse than Egypt or Israel, and they don't get threatened, they get actively funded and the US will even hand over private data about American people (and likely anyone) over to Israel as part of the bargain.

Rogue nations are alive and well and they are spying on everything which of course is being swept under the microscope as Syria is being used as a distraction.

[VictorCharlie]

The President will take credit for the diplomatic results but lets be honest, he got his hand forced to not use military force by overwhelming public opinion in the US and being out maneuvered by Putin/Assad. If the administration had gotten their way we would be engaged militarily in the Syrian civil war.

On a side note, what is a rogue nation? This sounds like another one of your made up terms like illegal war.

[Gandalf]

The President will take credit for the diplomatic results but lets be honest, he got his hand forced to not use military force by overwhelming public opinion in the US and being out maneuvered by Putin/Assad. If the administration had gotten their way we would be engaged militarily in the Syrian civil war.

On a side note, what is a rogue nation? This sounds like another one of your made up terms like illegal war.

Illegal wars are those of aggression and moreso based upon outright fraud and lies. Rogue nation fits nations that routinely ignore international law. The US, Britain and Israel are the obvious examples. Only they can get away with the outrageous time and time again.

Many nations in the world are rogue, but some have a lot of influence. Rogue is forcing a state to give up weapons whilst having them too and never discussing removing them.

[Gandalf]

VanChild's you seldom fail to come across like a soldier who has studied at an American University. Any sensible person rejects all of that bullshit. Maybe you need time.

The Iraq war was illegal and still you went there. You didn't give a hoot about this stuff then. The illegality was obvious. A war of agression, based on what were complete lies. You were there, and you always get shirty when questioned on these terms.

Nobody wants to be accused of being a blind follower of the orders of Cheney and Bush, but that is what it was. You took part in an act of aggression and dislike hearing about rogue states.

You should have chosen your profession more carefully. My rhetoric is fine and is the same as always. Unlike yours in Iraq which finally you agreed was a mess after all your defending.

[VictorCharlie]

Finally agreed? I've always maintained we shouldn't have gone to Iraq. You on the other hand have never been able to explain how/when war is legal or illegal. So again what legal document dictates when war is legal or illegal for the world and what legal body rules on these things? Mind you we've already covered that the UN charter is not international law. Act of aggression? That describes all war. The UN does nothing more than take a popularity vote and even then the security council simply votes against each other. The whole thing is a farce. You pick and choose when you want to champion the UN but since that is the standard you want to go buy according to the UN, Saddam and Iraq violated multiple resolutions passed post Gulf War 1, namely they violated the no-fly zone and fired on US aircraft patrolling the no fly zone. I personally don't think either of these justify OIF and obviously GW provided these in conjunction w/poorly vetted intelligence on WMD. I don't call you on using silly phrases b/c I'm defensive about my participation but b/c your arguments are intellectually dishonest. I don't feel any need to apologize or defend my time in Iraq b/c unlike you who does nothing more than provide your faux outrage on the internet I spent most of my time in Iraq providing humanitarian aid.

So with that handled, again what is a rogue state?

[Gandalf]

Finally agreed....but you went there. And all to help the people apparently. Interesting.

I see nothing intellectually dishonest in what I say, unless you have studied in an American University. Your country is intellectually dishonest, I am the least of the troubles.

I don't do any of the things that you have acted on behalf of. I merely sit from a distance and tell the truth about what I see.

It's called getting a real job. Unlike all this 'let's join the military and invade a weak country' bullshit.

[VictorCharlie]

Cool story, now what is a rogue nation?

[Beanz]

Miles you are a cowardly intellectual snob. Self righteous indignation is all well and good when you are sat behind your keyboard but you can not judge a man by ignoring the good he has done and then expect equivalent credit for doing fuck all yourself. Even the most ardent pacifist would not pretend that a career in the military is not a real job.

[VictorCharlie]

Its cool. I was a teacher before I got a real job running a bar but then my piss poor American education led me along with my genetically predisposed American past time of rape, pillage and genocide to being in the military. If only I could be as enlightened and informed as Miles.

[Gandalf]

I have never gone into what are no more than the modern day equivalent of the crusades and that isn't cowardly in the slightest. Cowardly is signing up to do things that are wrong and making a living from it. A lot of people have been killed in overseas countries by US troops. Vietnam was supposedly over 2 million and granted many had no choice as they were forced to do it, but even then one should resist and go to prison instead. In these modern wars it is people who are in the military as a career choice. I don't see the point in skirting around the issue and not telling the truth. It isn't a noble and decent thing to sign up for the US military with all that it involves. It means selling out morally.

I don't see the need to defend my work as it is peaceful and there is no destruction or harm involved. If my conditions deteriorate then I will leave which is something I may well do come the end of the year, but it will have nothing to do with war crimes, murder, torture, or any of the other things that are synonymous with the US military. I have always been involved in work that doesn't harm and most would say the same. However, there are terrible corporations and one should morally not be involved with them too. Walmart is an obvious case in point. The NSA now is too on the suck list. In saying that there is no more terrible job than to be working in the military of the worlds leading sponsor of international terrorism.

You are supposed to mouse around and never point out the obvious and I find it amusing that I am painted as the big bad devil for pointing out the white elephant in the room. The US military sucks and anyone who signs up to become a trained killer is not like ordinary people who don't pick up guns, invade countries, and kill. It is an abberration and should be described as such and especially when it concerns the US military of the last decade. It is a monstrosity.

Having said that VC seems alright. However, reconciling the job is something I have never been able to do. I don't understand why anybody would train to kill other people. I'm not cowardly for thinking that way as I imagine many probably think the same way. Everybody likes to hammer teaching which is a benign and positive job, but you say anything about the values of people who sign up for the military as a safe job and you are satan. It just seems a bit absurd.

[Gandalf]

Anyway, I am sorry if I have offended you VC. This topic always seems to come up again and again. You seem like a decent sort, but then I contrast that with the job and I have trouble reconciling it. It boggles my mind why anyone would sell their labour to a military. In saying that people sell out all the time from CEO's who do bugger all, to pricks in the NSA, to private contractors who are essentially mercenaries etc etc. No hard feelings, though I am sure 3 month later when Syria is escalating I will be at it again!

Why couldn't you have just remained a steady teacher? I like teachers, it's a relatively honest sport. Mind you, I don't hear good things about teaching in the states. Seems like paperwork hell and little thanks, plus American kids, and budgets being stripped state to state.

[VictorCharlie]

No worries man. We've been doing this long enough I don't get too worked up about it. I liked teaching but I saw an opportunity to make better money in the booze business and then I just wanted more of a challenge in my life. The military provided that challenge. Being in a leadership position in the military is a lot like being a teacher. Something to consider Miles is that most people in the military will never spend one minute of their career hunting armed men. Their job has nothing to do with killing and more than likely they will never pull a trigger in anger. Frankly at close to 36 and with over a decade in uniform my days of kicking doors down are close to an end.

[walrus]

how do you define a democratic country as a rogue nation.