60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[undefeated]

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

Some of the best Heavyweights in history

Most of those fighters wouldn't even make it into Heavyweight top 20 list on most experts list's.

Infact i'll give you 20 Heavyweights right now that are rated higher higher than all those Heavyweights except for Patterson and Liston of course. This list isn't in order.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Jack Dempsey
Rocky MarcianoEvander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
John L. Sullivan
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Joe Jeannette

Need i go on ?? and they were just the ones that come to mind in a few seconds if i really thought about it i could name at least 30 who are higher.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

Point out one thing where i was wrong ?? i think your find everything i said was facts, the only reason you aren't debating is because you have no counter argument.

I have been following boxing for about 10 years im 18, and i also do amateur boxing and i know a lot about the sport so don't try insult me because you don't agree with me.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Umm actually Scrap implied that Robinson's opposition wasn't that great at Welterweight, and i said his opposition at Welterweight is questionable but i also said i haven't seen his fights at Welterweight, so i can't really comment on it so i asked Scrap for his opinion because he has seen Robinson's fights at Welterweight stop me if im wrong ??

no way is dempsey higher than marciano---marcianos opposition was better, dempesy wouldnt fight black fighters and only defended his title once every couple yrs

and muhammad ali beat the best opposition than any other hw. that makes #1

[ICB]

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.

He was involved in two fights of the year as recognised by 'The Ring' and his career was abruptly put on hold in 1967 - I have no doubt that he would have got better and better if allowed to box out the remaining years of the decade.

Can't see how anyone could claim that Riddick Bowe could beat the 60's Ali - that is just a foolish statement.


No it isn't Ali struggled with much lesser fighters than Bowe, a 100 percent in shape Bowe would give Ali all he could handle.

Holmes would have been competitive against Ali but Ali's former sparring partner would not have beaten him.


He already did beat him

Nah but seriously Holmes could very well beat Ali he had piston left jab, great chin, great stamina, fast hands, good power, Ali has never met anyone who was as skilled as Holmes and vice a versa.

Ali was at his sparkling best during the 60's and yes he got caught by Henry Cooper but he got up and won in the next round. Also that fight was before Ali became champion.

Yes and he had to have smelling salts to revive him when they wern't even allowed in UK at that time i believe so really Ali should of been DQ. and lets not even get started on the torn glove controversy.

Ali beat Liston, Chuvalo, Cleveland Williams,Terrell, Paterson and Zora Folley as champion and that is a fine list of opponents.


Liston was actually almost 40 years old when Ali fought him, Patterson was great at Light Heavyweight etc. But he didn't have the chin at Heavyweight plus he was too small.

Williams was not that good the only thing he was known for before Ali fight was getting sparked out twice by Liston, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terell. Plus he was 33 so he wasn't exactly in his peak.

Chuvalo was tough as nails but he wasn't a great boxer, going into Ali fight his best wins were against Yvon Durelle who was much better at Light Heavyweight, and Doug Jones.

Folley was goodish he beat few good names like Bonavena but lets not forget Bonavena only had 8 pro fights at the time. Plus others like Chuvalo, ETC. but he also went 1-1 with Henry Cooper so that shows you he wasn't exactly elite. Plus he got sparked out by Liston, a 12-1 fighter, and sparked out by Doug Jones, Folley was goodish but thats it.

Terrell bet few good names going into Ali fight and he was on nice win streak but i never thought much of Terrell.

All these fighters are goodish to mediocre none of them were ever really elite. Except for Patterson and Liston of course.

Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Haha I had to laugh at the way you have just flipantly rubbished some of the best Heavyweights in the history of the division - you make them sound like bums.

Some of the best Heavyweights in history

Most of those fighters wouldn't even make it into Heavyweight top 20 list on most experts list's.

Infact i'll give you 20 Heavyweights right now that are rated higher higher than all those Heavyweights except for Patterson and Liston of course. This list isn't in order.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis
Jack Dempsey
Rocky MarcianoEvander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
John L. Sullivan
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Joe Jeannette

Need i go on ?? and they were just the ones that come to mind in a few seconds if i really thought about it i could name at least 30 who are higher.

There isn't much point in debating with you as you don't know what your talking about. I'm guessing your a teenager who only got interested in Boxing cos Audley Harrison won the Olympic Gold medal.

Point out one thing where i was wrong ?? i think your find everything i said was facts, the only reason you aren't debating is because you have no counter argument.

I have been following boxing for about 10 years im 18, and i also do amateur boxing and i know a lot about the sport so don't try insult me because you don't agree with me.

1st you rubbish Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents and now Muhammad Ali - unbelievable.

Umm actually Scrap implied that Robinson's opposition wasn't that great at Welterweight, and i said his opposition at Welterweight is questionable but i also said i haven't seen his fights at Welterweight, so i can't really comment on it so i asked Scrap for his opinion because he has seen Robinson's fights at Welterweight stop me if im wrong ??

no way is dempsey higher than marciano---marcianos opposition was better, dempesy wouldnt fight black fighters and only defended his title once every couple yrs

and muhammad ali beat the best opposition than any other hw. that makes #1

Did you read anything i said ??

Infact i'll give you 20 Heavyweights right now that are rated higher higher than all those Heavyweights except for Patterson and Liston of course. This list isn't in order.

[Trainer Monkey]

Ice,one of the ways they rate is holding a title,in the 60's there was one title.
And it couldnt be pried off of Ali for 3 years
You really want your blind dislike to make yourself think there wasnt a single valid challenger for those years he held it?

[ICB]

Ice,one of the ways they rate is holding a title,in the 60's there was one title.
And it couldnt be pried off of Ali for 3 years
You really want your blind dislike to make yourself think there wasnt a single valid challenger for those years he held it?

Out of the contenders mentioned only Terrell won Heavyweight title in the 60s, and that was vacant one at that, So whats your point ??

[Trainer Monkey]

Ice,one of the ways they rate is holding a title,in the 60's there was one title.
And it couldnt be pried off of Ali for 3 years
You really want your blind dislike to make yourself think there wasnt a single valid challenger for those years he held it?

Out of the contenders mentioned only Terrell won Heavyweight title in the 60s, and that was vacant one at that, So whats your point ??

By the time Ali was stripped,Foley and Williams were both past it,either one of them could have won it if it wasnt for Ali sitting on it

[ICB]

Ice,one of the ways they rate is holding a title,in the 60's there was one title.
And it couldnt be pried off of Ali for 3 years
You really want your blind dislike to make yourself think there wasnt a single valid challenger for those years he held it?

I misread the question but i will reply again, I said they were best of that era doesn't mean there *Great* Heavyweight's though does it ??

[plinden]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

Ali was almost always bigger than his opponents. He looked almost gay against Henry Copper, a guy who is barely 190 pounds; dancing around and almost getting koed. Failed to put away many fighters that I think that Vitali Klitschko and company would have KOed in first round.

Vitali would just kill him with his straight punching. Also Maskaev and his level of big roughnecks with huge amateour background would be a huge challange. Think about Chuvalo but much bigger and better.

[plinden]

One thing is for sure Lewis wouldn't have beaten him! There appears to be a trend in this subject to question Ali's close decisions or gifts. Granted he had a close call with Jones but how old was he? 21! Heavyweights today don't even start until they are in their mid twenties and mature in their mid thirties!
Cooper knocked him down with a perfect left hook, so was big Henry a bum? No he wasn't, he was a bloody good fighter at HW for many years. Lewis would have lost a lopsided Ud against a prime 60's Ali.
Every champion has a close call or two, Lewis copped a bad one against Holyfield in their first fight but got a gift in their second.

HENRY WEIGHED LESS THAN 190 POUNDS!!!!!! You think Tyson would have had problems when he was 21 against him? You think Wlad or Vitaly or Maskaev would have had to go rounds after rounds and dance AWAY from this little man? And ALI holds and holds and pushes down etc.

I'd love to see GOLOTA on a good nite give ALI some serious rough play.

You think that LEWIS or VITALI would have to go 12 rounds against 195pounds Karl Mildenberger?

[ICB]

One thing is for sure Lewis wouldn't have beaten him! There appears to be a trend in this subject to question Ali's close decisions or gifts. Granted he had a close call with Jones but how old was he? 21! Heavyweights today don't even start until they are in their mid twenties and mature in their mid thirties!
Cooper knocked him down with a perfect left hook, so was big Henry a bum? No he wasn't, he was a bloody good fighter at HW for many years. Lewis would have lost a lopsided Ud against a prime 60's Ali.
Every champion has a close call or two, Lewis copped a bad one against Holyfield in their first fight but got a gift in their second.

HENRY WEIGHED LESS THAN 190 POUNDS!!!!!! You think Tyson would have had problems when he was 21 against him? You think Wlad or Vitaly or Maskaev would have had to go rounds after rounds and dance AWAY from this little man? And ALI holds and holds and pushes down etc.

I'd love to see GOLOTA on a good nite give ALI some serious rough play.

You think that LEWIS or VITALI would have to go 12 rounds against 195pounds Karl Mildenberger?

or Maskaev

Nah he would lose

[Wasp]

I think a young Mike tyson would of given Ali a run for his money.

[Trainer Monkey]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

[ICB]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

Totally disagree Tyson has better defense than Frazier, puts combos together, etc. Frazier has bigger heart. But to say Frazier is superior fighter is way off the mark IMO.

[Trainer Monkey]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

Totally disagree Tyson has better defense than Frazier, puts combos together, etc. Frazier has bigger heart. But to say Frazier is superior fighter is way off the mark IMO.

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever
With the variation of the Philly crab that Frazier fought in you could change it up,two hand high your stuck,which is why when Tysons foot speed was shot,so was he. That guards relatively easy to beat

[ICB]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

Totally disagree Tyson has better defense than Frazier, puts combos together, etc. Frazier has bigger heart. But to say Frazier is superior fighter is way off the mark IMO.

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever
With the variation of the Philly crab that Frazier fought in you could change it up,two hand high your stuck,which is why when Tysons foot speed was shot,so was he. That guards relatively easy to beat

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever

Thats total nonsense i see Tyson avoid 10 punches in a row then spark the other guy out. Tyson had terrible defense are you kidding me ??

Frazier used to get caught all the time in fights, he used to bob and weaver but not throw any punches, Tyson would bob a weave 3 or 4 times then land his punches, Frazier's defense is nowhere near as good as Tyson's.

That guards relatively easy to beat

[Trainer Monkey]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

Totally disagree Tyson has better defense than Frazier, puts combos together, etc. Frazier has bigger heart. But to say Frazier is superior fighter is way off the mark IMO.

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever
With the variation of the Philly crab that Frazier fought in you could change it up,two hand high your stuck,which is why when Tysons foot speed was shot,so was he. That guards relatively easy to beat

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever

Thats total nonsense i see Tyson avoid 10 punches in a row then spark the other guy out. Tyson had terrible defense are you kidding me ??

Frazier used to get caught all the time in fights, he used to bob and weaver but not throw any punches, Tyson would bob a weaver 3 or 4 times then land his punches, Frazier's defense is nowhere near as good as Tyson's.

That guards relatively easy to beat

Yeah thats why when he no longer had the footspeed a nobody like Danny Williams tore him up
His Defense sucked,in his prime he had great,and I do mean great footspeed,when that went,so did he.
You want to fight that guard,go right ahead,just tell me where to send the flowers or make a donation in lieu of flowers
Tyson got by on intimidation for a long time,guys would freeze up,Bruno especially
Your feelings on Ali
He was racist,no he wasnt,but America at the time certainly was,he got death threats over Frazier/Ali 1
He was racist towards Frazier,no he gave everybody he fought a nickname,Liston was the Bear,Frazier was the Gorilla,etc,etc
I think part of what was so hurtful about that nickname towards Joe,was he couldnt understand why every white construction worker wanted him to win,and Ali was the black champ.
Theyve talked it out,why that happened was Ali stood up to the white power structure in this country
You dont think there is one,black people have been free in this country for how long?
Name me a black president
Hell,we've only had one catholic one
White protestant males as far as the eye can see
Youve also bought in to the Larry Holmes self pity of "They all hated me because I beat Ali"
I love Larry Holmes,he's one of my idols
But you know why people hated him?
He wasnt exciting
Ali could talk,Frazier could sing,Norton could act,Spinks could scare animals out of the woods if he smiled,Foreman could preach,Larry just methodically beat people up.
And if you dont think America was racist in the 60's and 70's,
Why were so many people rooting for Cooney?