Understanding boxing rankings across alphabet orgs

[TitoFan]

Ok guys. At the risk of sounding out of touch, I started this thread to get some earnest discussions going about the ins-and-outs of boxing rankings.

Let's take welter, for instance (since there's so much discussion lately of Spence vs Crawford and how it may or many happen).

Ok, so Bud holds the WBO belt while Spencer holds the other 3 major belts. So far so good. But... how is it that Spence is not even ranked in the top 15 by the WBO, while Crawford is nowhere to be found on the contender lists of the other three orgs? Is it a promoter issue? If so, why are other contenders on every list? (Example: Ennis is #2 WBO, #1 IBF, #3 WBC, #2 WBA). Thurman is #3 WBO, #6 IBF, #1 WBC, #3 WBA. Connor Benn is 4, 5, 5, 4, respectively. You get the point. What is it about Spence and Crawford that keeps them apart on alphabet org lists?

IMO, a ranking is a ranking. Promoters be damned. A WBO not ranking Spence loses immediate credibility. Ditto with the other orgs for not ranking Bud.

Is this somehow related to what keeps these guys from fighting each other? Spence is PBC, right? Does this mean the WBO snubs ALL fighters promoted by PBC? Or is this strictly a "Spence thing"? Crawford parted ways with Top Rank. Was Bob Arum the reason why Bud wasn't ranked by any org outside the WBO? Do these orgs rank ANY fighter under Top Rank?

Somebody help me out here. This is thoroughly confusing, even for a college grad.

[greynotsoold]

Most organizations will not rank another organization's champion. A lot of times they won't rank somebody ranked by another organization in their top 10.
You pay for rankings. It is a status and a money game.
The WBo is very obvious about this, but that is how it plays out across the board. It works like this if your financial backing isn't strong: Your management or promotional team will play up front to get you ranked. If you are successful, down the road your training expenses, for which you are compensated, will be 20,000, but your manager/promoter will say that they were 35,000, and that will be deducted from what the fighter gets. That is repayment on what was spent to get him favorable rankings.
You can fight your way up but...you and I have been around long enough to know the fighter I was with in 2015. When his manager got a deal worked out with money people, part of which involved moving that fighter to being trained by Abel Sanchez, he immediately went from #14 in the organizations to #7. Without a fight.
My partner has told me stories of his time with a guy that became a WBO world champion. The guy was getting paid $150,000 for a fight, but getting 30 because of "training expenses" that were payments to keep him ranked and moving up.
And this goes back to why guys never get matched tough coming up...you find a guy that you can market and the investment starts piling up from the gate.

[TitoFan]

Most organizations will not rank another organization's champion. A lot of times they won't rank somebody ranked by another organization in their top 10.
You pay for rankings. It is a status and a money game.
The WBo is very obvious about this, but that is how it plays out across the board. It works like this if your financial backing isn't strong: Your management or promotional team will play up front to get you ranked. If you are successful, down the road your training expenses, for which you are compensated, will be 20,000, but your manager/promoter will say that they were 35,000, and that will be deducted from what the fighter gets. That is repayment on what was spent to get him favorable rankings.
You can fight your way up but...you and I have been around long enough to know the fighter I was with in 2015. When his manager got a deal worked out with money people, part of which involved moving that fighter to being trained by Abel Sanchez, he immediately went from #14 in the organizations to #7. Without a fight.
My partner has told me stories of his time with a guy that became a WBO world champion. The guy was getting paid $150,000 for a fight, but getting 30 because of "training expenses" that were payments to keep him ranked and moving up.
And this goes back to why guys never get matched tough coming up...you find a guy that you can market and the investment starts piling up from the gate.

Thanks, grey. I appreciate your input. You've been around the game in aspects most of us have not. So this insight is super valuable. It's puzzling that orgs won't rank another org's champions... at all. I mean, not even in the top 15. It comes across as petty and it undermines their credibility in the public's eye... but I understand the financial aspect.

I actually don't mind that there are four major boxing orgs. Maybe if they worked things a little more on the "up and up", I'd mind even less. The idea of champions fighting unifications bouts is pleasing to me. But the way these orgs go about their rankings leaves a lot to be desired. Nothing like getting the straight scoop from someone on the inside.

[Spicoli]

Thats brilliant Grey, straight talk! Rankings in general are marketing and just run down any top 10 and the disparity is blinding. The daily rages on p4p are almost an entire gameshow now . Generally, I go to the Ring rankings as a balance point but they also get slammed now and flat dismissed. There was a time when the other groups were literally not mentioned on air . It was short. These alphabet boyz in a worse case scenario are acting as literal rental agencies for shiny trinkets put around temp-champs. And some know it and are matched like it going in. We know who climbs and we know who gets fast forwarded up the chain. If anything fans are great at calling bullshit on every aspect of boxing but tuning in next weekend. Thurman went from a 2.5 year retirement to suddenly fighting 140 Mario Barrios in a wbc eliminator. He now sits at #3 pretty much across the board. But oddly if he gets Boots, Stanionis or Spence tomorrow, I'll watch.

[Mark TKO]

I stopped looking at the alphabet boys ratings 25+ years ago and just go by the Ring also.

Much easier !

[Primo Carnera]

I stopped looking at the alphabet boys ratings 25+ years ago and just go by the Ring also.

Much easier !

Yeah, but Golden Boy bought it, that doesn’t always give a fair reflection now. Let’s face it, Money OWNS Boxing.

[TitoFan]

Thanks for your input, gents.

Speaking of rankings... what do you make of the following oddities.

David Benavidez is nowhere to be seen in the alphabet rankings. Did he step on someone's foot at a boxing convention or something? Or is he being kept a safe distance away from The Diva?

I won't mention Tyson Fury, because he retires more than some people change their underwear. But he is in none of the lists... and as far as I know he's still (cough) active.

Bivol is #1 in The Ring and WBA champ... but doesn't exist as far as the other orgs are concerned. (Yeah... I'll refer back to Grey's explanation on that one).



There's more... but the point is made, and I gotta agree with Spicoli. The disparity between lists is blinding. All that does is tear down any shred of credibility anyone might still want to assign to these rankings. They're worthless.

A cursory look through The Ring rankings gives me the impression they'd be the closest thing to a realistic list, although as Primo mentioned, it was bought by Golden Boy... which automatically takes away some of the objectivity these rankings need to have in order to be believable.

[Mark TKO]

I stopped looking at the alphabet boys ratings 25+ years ago and just go by the Ring also.

Much easier !

Yeah, but Golden Boy bought it, that doesn’t always give a fair reflection now. Let’s face it, Money OWNS Boxing.

I usually am pretty much in agreement with the rankings or there or thereabouts - though admittedly last few years I care less and my knowledge is limited

[Spicoli]

Thanks for your input, gents.

Speaking of rankings... what do you make of the following oddities.

David Benavidez is nowhere to be seen in the alphabet rankings. Did he step on someone's foot at a boxing convention or something? Or is he being kept a safe distance away from The Diva?

I won't mention Tyson Fury, because he retires more than some people change their underwear. But he is in none of the lists... and as far as I know he's still (cough) active.

Bivol is #1 in The Ring and WBA champ... but doesn't exist as far as the other orgs are concerned. (Yeah... I'll refer back to Grey's explanation on that one).



There's more... but the point is made, and I gotta agree with Spicoli. The disparity between lists is blinding. All that does is tear down any shred of credibility anyone might still want to assign to these rankings. They're worthless.

A cursory look through The Ring rankings gives me the impression they'd be the closest thing to a realistic list, although as Primo mentioned, it was bought by Golden Boy... which automatically takes away some of the objectivity these rankings need to have in order to be believable.

It really is a game of Ro sham Bo with a suitcase of stuffed plain white envelopes being handed around. aka Money talks. The omissions like you mention make it obvious. Fury to me is a complete sideshow lately and his word is dodgy, but with a "fight" farce signed now and clearly not retiring (until the day after Chisora)...how is he not ranked not the Ring? Ring is still a solid guideline but to be honest they've been suspect all the way back to 2012 or 2013 when they inserted Adrian Broner as the #5 p4p fighter in the world . The shat thing is for a lot of the top tier fighters, Bivol, Crawford, Fury etc the omissions are countered for them as another alphabet soup body has them up there with a strap or on the doorstep. But for legit lesser known contenders climbing ranks they can easily be cast out. Carlos Adames is coming off an impressive win and was just dropped by the wba but Sergio Martinez..yes that one..sits at #3. Much of the time all a guy has to do to get demoted is having the nerve to be ranked high by a competing body. Boxing has to be the sport in which numbers can and are so easily manipulated. From padded glossy win records, ko stats to maneuvering the ratings.