If Lennox Lewis had rematched Vitali Klitschko.........

[greynotsoold]

Powder puff fisted Joe Frazier, with a 40 odd percent knockout ratio over genuine heavyweights is going to knock out 250lb 6'7" mountain of muscle Michael Grant?

Glass jawed Joe Frazier is going to hang around the chest of freight train punching Michael Grant?

The same Joe Frazier that was absolutely wasted by Foreman and had 15 rounds of continuously landing that left hook against Muhammad Ali, a much smaller opponent than Grant and could not knock him out?

The thought of Joe Frazier co-existing in an era of super-heavyweight punchers?

That is a VERY BOLD and fantastic assertion Mr. Master!

You pick a poor example, because, while big, Michael grant had one huge drawback as a professional fighter.
He couldn't fight. Not even a little bit. I have been on the "Ali/Frazier Overrated" bandwagon for so long, I helped build it. But Joe Frazier would beat Michael Grant, and he would stop him in 3-6 rounds, unless Grant could drape himself on Frazier and thus last the distance.

[Max Power]

You have got to be joking... You think Joe Frazier who wouldn't have even been ALLOWED to box in Grants era, could really beat him. Grant was heralded as "The Next Big Thing" and highly expected by many to supercede Lennox Lewis. Obviously that was never going to happen but that was Lennox Lewis! His previous fight with Golota nearly ended disasterously for him too but he showed great fortitude there and lets be honest, Golota is a great fighter in reality and Grant did come back from behind to score the victory!

Anyway Grant had a solid record before he met Lewis. It is only in retrospect now since Grants downfall that people tend to forget he was a fearsome prospect. If you think Joe Frazier can succeed against this calibre of opponent you are on the "good old days nutbag wagon" as well I'm afraid.

Frazier only faced one real puncher in Foreman who was his mandatory (i.e. he couldn't avoid it) and ducked all the other hard punching HW's of his era (Mac Foster, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shaver's etc.)

He is a cruiser cruncher and bum beater virtually exclusively and his only claim to fame at all is 2 things...

1/ Getting the living shit punched out of him by Foreman..
2/ Beating 1ce and taking it to Ali 2 other times which simply exposed Ali's limitedness for not being able to handle such a feeble opponent.

Disagree? Name ONE SINGLE opponent Grant has lost to that is as weak as Frazier?

Even Tomasz Adamek is a sturdier opponent and unlike Frazier is an exceptionally skilled one.

Grant would have beaten Guinn and Takam easily when prime.

[Max Power]

Joe frazier is one of the most overrated heavies.. I never questioned his hof status but an atg he is not.

Both klits would toy with him and knock him out in 5 rounds or less..

Agreed. It never ceases to amaze me the blind fanaticism some guys have for their favourites.

I mean it's not like we can't pull up video of these guys and SEE WITH OUR OWN 2 EYES how badly they would get beaten up these days were they to be fighting.

I can't even watch boxing pre 1970's except for "educational purposes" and Foreman vs Ali is the only fight I truly love from this period, a fight which was more because of the drama involved than the quality of the boxing itself!

[Master]

Calling Frazier powerpuff is silly, he had a bomb of a left hook. So he lost to a moster puncher like Foreman, there is no shame in that. Ali took the bombs because his chin is amazing.

What did Grant ever achieve? Frazier would ruin Adamek while he is handling Grant on the same night.

[Max Power]

He would never fight Grant or Adamek because he would never make it far enough up the rankings.

You want to see a hard left hook, Morrison, Tyson, Tua, those are hard left hooks!

[Master]

He would never fight Grant or Adamek because he would never make it far enough up the rankings.

You want to see a hard left hook, Morrison, Tyson, Tua, those are hard left hooks!

If you said Lennox could be Joe I would accept that but Adamek and Grant, you are clearly taking the piss.

[YIDDLE]

Lewis would have learned his lazy lesson for coming in like a fat slob in the first fight, he would have whipped his 38 year old body into the best shape he could, and he would---in typical vengeful Lennox fashion---have exacted a startlingly brutal revenge upon Klitschko that we would still be talking about today. That's how he did it.

Yep I see lennox putting in a real elite fighter performance in a tough fight winning a clear decision or more likely a stoppage around the 10th

[Max Power]

Yiddle;

I could just as easily post a couple of vids of Klitschko wasting Johnson and Sanders and make a similar quote!

Master;

You can't swallow that an excellent counter puncher with solid defence like Adamek who has beaten tough and hefty contenders already like Golota, Grant, Arreola could not handle Frazier? Or hulking power puncher grant could not fail to knock him out.

Frazier has the combination of limited skill, lacking speed for a little guy, short stature, low weight, suspect conditioning and most of all is a punch weak glass jaw! A totally unacceptable list of faults in a superheavyweight era!

[Master]

Yiddle;

I could just as easily post a couple of vids of Klitschko wasting Johnson and Sanders and make a similar quote!

Master;

You can't swallow that an excellent counter puncher with solid defence like Adamek who has beaten tough and hefty contenders already like Golota, Grant, Arreola could not handle Frazier? Or hulking power puncher grant could not fail to knock him out.

Frazier has the combination of limited skill, lacking speed for a little guy, short stature, low weight, suspect conditioning and most of all is a punch weak glass jaw! A totally unacceptable list of faults in a superheavyweight era!

I cannot talk sense into you but you seem to respect @Freedom so hopefully he will back me up here. Adamek no can beat Frazier, who next Audley?

[Max Power]

Look I simply don't rate Frazier, never have. I've seen nothing in his fights to suggest his performance against Ali was little more than an expose of the holes in Ali's skillset.

Apart from Ali who mind you I know is a very decent opponent, who did he beat who has any relevance to a modern HW boxer? Nobody! He is famous for only the 2 reasons mentioned above imo.

Tomasz Adamek has limitations at modern HW because of his miniscule size but that is relative to HIS opponents. He is still 3 inches taller and heavier than Frazier! And Adamek is ripped at his weight where as Frazier was almost never in shape for his fights!

I do acknowledge Frazier was natural and Adamek uses steroids to achieve his physical self but I'm not referring to ethics here.

On top of this Adamek has a solid very good CW record- opponents who Frazier also fought remember and Adamek wasn't allowed to have the size advantage Frazier was and has faced some really hard opponents at HW where as most of Frazier's wins were against mismatched and undersized ones or with losing records with only few exceptions. Check it out thoroughly and you will see, I am not the only one to have shared this view.

Adamek is no world beater at HW but he is a multiple world titlist and much higher quality than you give him credit for.

If you believe in Joe, I wont try convince you otherwise, fine! But it will take more than heresay to sway me over.

[Master]

How do you think Ali would have done against Adamek in 1971? Foreman? Joe was a gold medalist. He was very fit. He was a brutal puncher with the left hook. He was heart and determination. To say he was overrated is silly.

[Max Power]

I think Adamek would have gotten Ali as well.

The performance of Ali in 1971 was terrible! Before Wladimir vs Povetkin, FOTC was the clinchiest fight of all time! And not just regular clinching, head down pushing, grabbing behind the neck, constant taunts. Between all the running and holding there was only about half a fight worth of actual boxing from Ali. Ali did very little effectively!

Most of all, Frazier mounted a very simple and limited attack based around his famous left hook which Muhammad seemed to be completely blind to.

This was no coincidence. Muhammad Ali had always relied on his height and reach coupled with his speed and sense of distance to land his shots outside and get away undamaged. All the time masking a truth about Ali that first surfaced in his fight with Frazier..

Ali had no reflexes! The 70's Ali had slowed down considerably and could not run from his opponents like he used to, and it turned out Ali was no Chris Byrd, he could not stand in front of his opponent and not get hit and Frazier chased him down and landed the same punch on him all night.

Tomasz Adamek would basically have a human punch bag in front of him! Because that's what Ali of the 70's relied on most... Chin and punch resistance!

[Master]

You are amazing.

[Max Power]

Against Foreman, NO. Adamek did not have the formula to survive against Foreman let alone win. Ali definitely had the edge here! But I do think Adamek survives longer than Frazier did!