PBF & PAC haters (what could they have done to get your respect?)

[SlimTrae]

PBF-
1. Don't claim that fake retirement.
2. Fight Paul Williams instead.
3. Fight Margarito
4. Weighed in against JMM.

PW fight-IMO was totally about a contrast of styles. Floyd isn't strong enough like Martinez to have kept Paul off of him. Too many punches without having to come inside, I think if any fighter could have beaten Floyd it was PW. NO all time great refuses to fight another undefeated top ranked fighter in their weight class.

Margarito I now see was more of a hype job ala Arum, but nevertheless he was a hot commodity & Floyd refused to honor the fans. Not weighing in against JMM was just fuckin' tacky. Tacky as hell.
That's what manipulators do, not ATGs.

PAC:
1.Juan Diaz (instead of David Diaz)
2. Michael Katsidis
3. Joel Casamayor (lineal champ at the time)
4. Shane Mosley (before Floyd)
5. Margarito (Before Shane)
6. DLH (not @ catchweight)

Undefeated Baby Bull called him out. Called it his dream fight. This was during the period Pac was taking on opponents coming off losses. Baby Bull was loved by Mexico -HBO was pumping him, it would have sold great and a gr8 outcome with both styles.
Instead-
After David Diaz fight he walked away from a division that was hot. Allowing JMM to clean it up. Pac retires as a great who never cleaned out a single division? That's cheap. & Punkish.

While he fought Cotto @ catchweight, many fighters back to Henry Armstrong made the adjustment, so why couldn't Miguel do it? I have to say hat is off to Pac. He really beat Cotto up.

His fights with Hatton, Margarito, Mosley & DLH were all timed well & at his chosen weight. Real champs just don't do shit like that-so often.


If just 1/2 of these fights could have been made- it would've made it harder to hate on either. But they gave us plenty of ammunition to question (both) of their legacies as far as I'm concerned.

2 of the most manipulative conniving fighters who had way too much skill to have conned us.

[Dark Lord Al]

PBF-
1. Don't claim that fake retirement.
2. Fight Paul Williams instead.
3. Fight Margarito
4. Weighed in against JMM.

PW fight-IMO was totally about a contrast of styles. Floyd isn't strong enough like Martinez to have kept Paul off of him. Too many punches without having to come inside, I think if any fighter could have beaten Floyd it was PW. NO all time great refuses to fight another undefeated top ranked fighter in their weight class.

Margarito I now see was more of a hype job ala Arum, but nevertheless he was a hot commodity & Floyd refused to honor the fans. Not weighing in against JMM was just fuckin' tacky. Tacky as hell.
That's what manipulators do, not ATGs.

PAC:
1.Juan Diaz (instead of David Diaz)
2. Michael Katsidis
3. Joel Casamayor (lineal champ at the time)
4. Shane Mosley (before Floyd)
5. Margarito (Before Shane)
6. DLH (not @ catchweight)

Undefeated Baby Bull called him out. Called it his dream fight. This was during the period Pac was taking on opponents coming off losses. Baby Bull was loved by Mexico -HBO was pumping him, it would have sold great and a gr8 outcome with both styles.
Instead-
After David Diaz fight he walked away from a division that was hot. Allowing JMM to clean it up. Pac retires as a great who never cleaned out a single division? That's cheap. & Punkish.

While he fought Cotto @ catchweight, many fighters back to Henry Armstrong made the adjustment, so why couldn't Miguel do it? I have to say hat is off to Pac. He really beat Cotto up.

His fights with Hatton, Margarito, Mosley & DLH were all timed well & at his chosen weight. Real champs just don't do shit like that-so often.


If just 1/2 of these fights could have been made- it would've made it harder to hate on either. But they gave us plenty of ammunition to question (both) of their legacies as far as I'm concerned.

2 of the most manipulative conniving fighters who had way too much skill to have conned us.

My answer is not taken P.E.D's

[IamInuit]

PBF-
1. Don't claim that fake retirement.
2. Fight Paul Williams instead.
3. Fight Margarito
4. Weighed in against JMM.

PW fight-IMO was totally about a contrast of styles. Floyd isn't strong enough like Martinez to have kept Paul off of him. Too many punches without having to come inside, I think if any fighter could have beaten Floyd it was PW. NO all time great refuses to fight another undefeated top ranked fighter in their weight class.

Margarito I now see was more of a hype job ala Arum, but nevertheless he was a hot commodity & Floyd refused to honor the fans. Not weighing in against JMM was just fuckin' tacky. Tacky as hell.
That's what manipulators do, not ATGs.

PAC:
1.Juan Diaz (instead of David Diaz)
2. Michael Katsidis
3. Joel Casamayor (lineal champ at the time)
4. Shane Mosley (before Floyd)
5. Margarito (Before Shane)
6. DLH (not @ catchweight)

Undefeated Baby Bull called him out. Called it his dream fight. This was during the period Pac was taking on opponents coming off losses. Baby Bull was loved by Mexico -HBO was pumping him, it would have sold great and a gr8 outcome with both styles.
Instead-
After David Diaz fight he walked away from a division that was hot. Allowing JMM to clean it up. Pac retires as a great who never cleaned out a single division? That's cheap. & Punkish.

While he fought Cotto @ catchweight, many fighters back to Henry Armstrong made the adjustment, so why couldn't Miguel do it? I have to say hat is off to Pac. He really beat Cotto up.

His fights with Hatton, Margarito, Mosley & DLH were all timed well & at his chosen weight. Real champs just don't do shit like that-so often.


If just 1/2 of these fights could have been made- it would've made it harder to hate on either. But they gave us plenty of ammunition to question (both) of their legacies as far as I'm concerned.

2 of the most manipulative conniving fighters who had way too much skill to have conned us.

Great inquiry @SlimTrae

I just got to work so I'll need a little time to contemplate this one while I open up shop.

[ruthless rocco]

Manny shouldn't have done PEDs--but we wouldn't be talking about him now if he hadn't.

Floyd should have dropped Larry Merchant during that post fight interview.

[Master]

1. Don't claim to be the best ever boxer when he would have been beaten by Leonard, Robinson and Hearns as he not a great welterweight.
2. Fight Manny 2009.
3. Fight Margarito
4. Fight Casamajor.
5. Fought GGG for the money he was paid to fight Manny
6. Not beat up women
7. Show some humility.

[powerpuncher]

I don't have anything in particular that I think Floyd should have done in the ring or who he fought to make me respect him more in that sense. He has a ton in his personal life to change to male e respect him as a person. I guess the only professional thing I can think of is push more for the pac fight in 2009. I never thought he pushed for it enough and never put up enough of a fight to make it all of pacs fault so I have to partly blame Floyd for it not happening.

Pac could have accepted the blood tests originally and basically not made so many excuses. He was a great fighter but continued to make excuses about everything. He was afraid/superstitious about needles, then he had leg cramps and that's why he didn't knock people out, then he lost to Floyd because he ran and had a bad shoulder. His excuses are probably the biggest thing. Also, he needs to admit that JMM beat him in the 3rd fight.

[Ron Swanson]

Floyd should have fought Winky. All the other "should haves" are stupid because they are all easy wins.

Manny could have told the truth, like ever in his career, ever.

And he shouldn't have backed out in 2009. He should have taken his lumps like a man.

[SlimTrae]

Manny shouldn't have done PEDs--but we wouldn't be talking about him now if he hadn't.

Floyd should have dropped Larry Merchant during that post fight interview.

As much evidence that seems to exist, I can't say Pac took anything. Kinda like the Barry Bonds of Boxing- evidence in there, but there's been no verdict. Legally that is.

While thinking about Pac overall- I guess I would ask you and the crew to weigh in on this: Maybe the worst thing that happened to Pac was leaving Murad Muhammad for Bob Arum.

Correct my history if I'm wrong, but wasn't Pac overlooked by Arum?
even Roach-initially.
And when Pac got his day I (thought) the Ledwaba fight was with Murad. The story I've heard & accepted was that Murad told Manny- The top fighters are locked up aka top spots with the Arum's etc,
BUT...if he'd be willing to take fights on short notice- Murad promised him he could get a spot on HBO undercard- that is televised.

Murad came through & then Arum stole him. Told him that Murad was either stealing money or purposely paying him low. Murad countered he couldn't pay him well because he had to get the spotlight in order to pay him well. & it would come because of Manny's butt kicking style would make waves on televised undercards that Murad could get- MAKE NOISE-- and then position Pac for big paydays.

By then, Arum took Pac over-

Had Murad had him--IMO Pac's style would've forced his way in, but as a result- I don't think Murad wouldn't have had Pac fight so many guys coming after losses & catch weights.
With Murad- he would've either conquered LW instead of running after DLH- or lost in some doozies of a brawl(S).
Anyone heard similar story? Or contrary?

[Beanflicker]

I can answer that for the Floyd haters.

1) Be white.
2) Have a boring, humble personality.
3) Be unskilled and just throw your hands wildly like Arturo Gatti, so dummies who don't understand boxing can be entertained.

[Beanflicker]

Manny shouldn't have done PEDs--but we wouldn't be talking about him now if he hadn't.

Floyd should have dropped Larry Merchant during that post fight interview.

Yup.

To gain my respect, Manny should have....

1) Been open about his PED use.
2) Not been a sore loser and come up with dumb excuses for every one of his loses.
3) Not believe whoever told him he could sing.

[IamInuit]

PBF & PAC haters (what could they have done to get your respect?)

First I want to be clear that I respect them both for different reasons but will continue to question their actual boxing legacy based on what I consider to be solid ground. I believe I can do that while still respecting them when called for. I find the term “hater” not reflective of all criticism just as “fanboy” is not reflective of all of their base and while I think about it. I believe the statement you use in closing sums it up quite nicely, especially in Floyds case and its the same reasoning I apply to Ward. At any rate lets have a look:


PBF-

1. Don't claim that fake retirement.

The dudes a product of his environment but that knife cuts both ways looking deeper into the question posed but not really here. Its almost naive if you have followed the sport for any reasonable amount of time to actually believe he'd retire like that at 49 in this boxing environment. Leonard was the first 100 million dollar fighter and he got much of that cash by unretiring.I'd be shocked if he went on such an average production. 49 and 0 writes its own finish for this particular time given the history. Floyd already knows that he most likely already will be treated unfairly by historians so I cant blame him for playing this one out in this market. If he does go 50 and 0 you can already expect somebody suffering from the chaff to start his resume does not match up to Marciano crusade. I'll go on record and say he comes back at middle.

2. Fight Paul Williams instead.

He didn’t have to. His environment allowed him to dismiss it because of his drawing potential. Boxing took a back seat as did legacy for Floyd when head to head against making the most money he could make on a steady diet of safety first which is also how he fought. That “0” became an almost false prophet.

Leonard never had to fight Hearns either. I'm sure he could have just retired. He also never had to unretire after 3 years and fight Hagler. Leonard wanted those fights as he did with Duran and Benitez. Imo Floyd would have avoided those guys. That to me is the biggest difference and the biggest blind spot to many of his followers. Its as if Floyd didn’t have to fight people because he was that good. That is an odd philosophy for this line of work. Making matters worse not better is the fact that in his mind he wins because of the ppv numbers regardless of the quality on the field.

3. Fight Margarito

Oh oh I know there was a beef between him and Arum. How could we not know, its been ubiquitous for ten years.

When you look back on it and reflect I'm not sure I truly buy that anymore as sound reasoning from a pugilist's perspective. Nothing says FUCK-U better then butchering the hired gun. I doubt Jack Johnson cared much for Jack London so he sent him a message when Jeffies came out of retirement. I mean just imagine if this took place during the Don King era. I think Floyd did have some honest intent at the same time. I believe he wanted to be his own man and follow in Oscars and Roy's foot steps and Ray's before them. Thing is he could have fought Margarito as still accomplished those goals w/o the litany of philosophical and economic excuses. I think there was genuine fear there after the experience with Castillo.

Hindsight: Look Margarito has paid his debt over glove gate but you would have to think that if Capetillo was willing to load against Shane then he would have for such a fight. No real giant leap of faith needed but again that's after the fact.Personally. I don't think he would have laid a glove on Floyd.

4. Weighing in against JM.

By agreeing to a 300,000 dollar per pound penalty and considering his bank account that should have told the world that he had no intention of making 144. It was also unreasonable for knowledgeable fans to expect him to. At that point in time Floyd would have had to shed pure muscle, not flab or a few pails of water. There should have never been the silly catch. Marquez should have just moved up and challenged. Why would a fighter want to weaken his opponent, mask it as some kind of even the playing field and then boast about the win. Do what Armstrong did to Ross and then brag about it for example.

-PW fight-IMO was totally about a contrast of styles. Floyd isn't strong enough like Martinez to have kept Paul off of him. Too many punches without having to come inside, I think if any fighter could have beaten Floyd it was PW. NO all time great refuses to fight another undefeated top ranked fighter in their weight class.

If Paul Williams fought like Tommy Hearns I'd share those sentiments but he didn’t. Paul consistently gave away his physical advantages and welcomed the trenches inside the pocket. I think Floyd carves him up. A fight that was worthy for boxing sake not the box office.

-Margarito I now see was more of a hype job ala Arum, but nevertheless he was a hot commodity & Floyd refused to honor the fans. Not weighing in against JMM was just fuckin' tacky. Tacky as hell.
That's what manipulators do, not ATGs.

I think the 144 was silly as already mentioned but he most definitely played the system. Floyd was not driven by legacy like Hopkins was and is. Floyds a prize fighter.

Floyd should have fought guys that he felt he never had to. Floyd should have found a way to make the Manny fight earlier after all the dust settles. He will never get the credit he would have gotten earlier and that w/o te little red wagon excuse after he wiped the floor with him. Historians will also remember his long at at times very convenient retirements/time off. He let the Box Office dictate his career, not legacy.

You mentioned Casamayor as a Manny opponent but he should have been a Floyd opponent also. At the time, I'm not convinced that version of Floyd would have beaten him although many of his followers would now claim it would have been a lock. He could have also fought Frietas or even Robert Garcia at 130 or Jong-kwon Baek

He could have fought Zu, Judah, Hatton, Cotto and Harris at 140 in spite of the Box Office. People can split hairs on minor details eternally but they could have been made. Its alarming that he offered Cotto a fight earlier in Miguels 140 career even though the same Arum was his promoter. That is the one he used to dismiss the Margarito fight and a big part for the reason Manny never happened earlier. He could have fought Shane sooner or made a real attempt to get Stevie Johnson or Lazcano.

I'm not blaming Floyd alone for all of those fights but the fact that he made others with weaker opponents later suggests they could have been made those listed and some that he did much earlier.

And finally much of the reffing in many of his fights were hack jobs and interference fests. Its like they were all trying to protect their investment. Like hiring Mcsorley to protect Gretzky. Not traveling at all (city-centric) disturbs me and I have mixed feelings over the hand injections.

My conclusions:

I think he's one of the greatest fighters ever that could have been greater.
I think the "0" ran his life and serves as a great example of cause and effect.
I think every choice he made was reasoned by that.
I think he should have executed some free will.
I think the system played ball and fell into line.
I think ppv helped them muddy those waters.
I think his delusional fan base plays a part.
I think they would spend 90 bucks to watch him eat a plate of kraft dinner.
I think he was more interested in money then legacy.
I think he was a phenom but also somewhat an artificial construct.
I think there will be several asterisks affixed to his notice in the history books.
I think 50 years from now people will make up their own minds.
I think Floyd was an anomaly and a replacement wont we found in my lifetime.

[Master]

Replacement wont we found in my lifetime? Brilliant, we only need one of him and the sooner forgotten the better after May 2016 for his bullcrap comeback fight.

[mikeeod]

Things Floyd could've done to be ranked higher on my P4P ATG list:
1. Completely cleaned out at least one weight he was in. He was the best in multiple weights, but I still would've liked to have seen him clean the weight out.
2. Beaten Kostya, Paul Williams, Casameyor, Frietas, as well as prime Shane, Manny, and Cotto.
3. Pushed the limits of his abilities at least once, regardless of outcome. Think of Robinson vs Maxim, Leonard vs Hagler, Roy vs Ruiz, Spinks can Holmes, Evander vs Tyson/Bowe/Lewis, Toney vs Evander, Hop vs Tarver...etc. specifically, if Floyd fought Winky (who was much larger), or comes back to fight GGG (still hope he does this) and performs well his placement rises in my book. I want to see Floyd fight as a true underdog once and push his body and brilliant skills to their limit. If he was to come back and beat GGG in a super fight, he would move to my top 6 or 7, if not higher (depending on how brilliant the performance is).

[SlimTrae]

@IamInuit- That was thorough. You dissected my post like a frog in biology class.

I like the use of the word "legacy".

I used that quite a bit to discuss Floyd. My argument has been: A guy like Oscar De La hoya became the cash cow- not just because of his fame with women, but because he went after fighters like Swee-Pea rated P4p & no catch weights, an undefeated Ike Quartey to Tito Trinidad to Hopkins- again no catch weight because he was chasing legacy, creating a "spectacle"- where people pay to see-can he really do it?


So chasing the "legacy" allowed the money to follow. Floyd IMO was chasing the money.......hoping "legacy" would follow.

[Master]

@IamInuit- That was thorough. You dissected my post like a frog in biology class.

I like the use of the word "legacy".

I used that quite a bit to discuss Floyd. My argument has been: A guy like Oscar De La hoya became the cash cow- not just because of his fame with women, but because he went after fighters like Swee-Pea rated P4p & no catch weights, an undefeated Ike Quartey to Tito Trinidad to Hopkins- again no catch weight because he was chasing legacy, creating a "spectacle"- where people pay to see-can he really do it?


So chasing the "legacy" allowed the money to follow. Floyd IMO was chasing the money.......hoping "legacy" would follow.

You are right about Oscar, he took chances against the top fighters and pushed himself. He earned the golden boy tag.