May 1973 ~ 'Heavyweight Rankings'

[Max Power]

@Bill Paxtom

How about we make another comparison like it's NEVER been made before (by OTNB or "nostalgic" posters to put it nicely)...

Take a look at this snapshot of rankings from 1973..

And then compare it to any snapshot of the Lewis or the Klitschko eras or the current era at ANY time...

The champ was less than 220lbs and a plodding slugger,

A defenceless punchbag Ali was ranked 4th with zero punch of his own.

A 1D poor mans version of Chisora was ranked.

A chinny superheavyweight featherfist bum buster+cruiser-cruncher was ranked,

And a host of other doubtful opponents...

I wonder how that'd fare against todays top rankings

[Master]

There you go again degrading Foreman as a plodder and Ali as just a punch bag.

You think today's fighters are superior because of their weight.

You are wrong.

[Max Power]

There you go again degrading Foreman as a plodder and Ali as just a punch bag.

You think today's fighters are superior because of their weight.

You are wrong.

No I don't, I consider Foreman inferior to todays plodder sluggers, because he was a far lighter, less powerful, slower and less skilled and less defended version of them and he proved himself against far smaller and worse opponents.

I consider Ali inferior to todays skilful opponents because Ali had no punch by comparison and could not defend himself against a punch either, where as today's skilled oppoennts can bend around shots and not get hit often and can counter far quicker.

I consider both inferior to the champ, because of BOTH reasons combined.

They were both smaller, less athletic and less skilled than the average Klitschko opponents overall, let alone Klitschko himself!

I do not mean that they were all 3 of these at once. Foreman might be stronger than some opponents and Ali might be faster or more skilled than some opponents. But the TOTAL PACKAGE of Foreman and Ali was generally LESS than the TOTAL PACKAGE of the average Klitschko opponent (let alone Klitchko himself, again).

[Max Power]

My position was quickly summed up by this...

If we took Mormeck from the Klitschko fight, HW Mormeck. Multiple champ, 217lbs, ripped and athletic and strong, 6'1". Good record against modern opponents (which would have been considered HW in Ali's/Foreman's times)--- And Ali and Foreman fought him... And they WON! Then Jean MArc Mormeck, would have been considered the BEST opponent they had ever faced! And he would be held in TESTAMENT to the greatness of the golden era and a proof of the superiority of times past and people would use him as an example of the quality of Ali/Foreman's opponents and laugh how the current era does not produce such fine specimens as Mormeck anymore.

He was more athletic, probably stronger, powerful, faster, more skilled, than basically any opponent either of the 2 (in the 70's) ever faced! And had a better title performance than any of the 2 ever did beat!

But against Wladimir, he was the worst mismatched opponent in recent memory! Despite being the same weight and ripped nearly as prime George Foreman, and bigger than Ali, Frazier and Norton except more skilled and athletic than any, Mormeck was considered grossly undersized and unable to compete.

You can compare the greatness of Ali and Foreman if you like but you cannot compare such shocking boxers (as they would be described these days) to modern professional HW boxers in a direct sense. It's comparing apples to oranges, they don't add up.

[Bill Paxtom]

Jose 'King' Roman

In 1973, was proclaimed to have the 'fastest hands' in the Heavyweight Division.

Al Braveram said so...............

[Master]

There you go again degrading Foreman as a plodder and Ali as just a punch bag.

You think today's fighters are superior because of their weight.

You are wrong.

No I don't, I consider Foreman inferior to todays plodder sluggers, because he was a far lighter, less powerful, slower and less skilled and less defended version of them and he proved himself against far smaller and worse opponents.

I consider Ali inferior to todays skilful opponents because Ali had no punch by comparison and could not defend himself against a punch either, where as today's skilled oppoennts can bend around shots and not get hit often and can counter far quicker.

I consider both inferior to the champ, because of BOTH reasons combined.

They were both smaller, less athletic and less skilled than the average Klitschko opponents overall, let alone Klitschko himself!

I do not mean that they were all 3 of these at once. Foreman might be stronger than some opponents and Ali might be faster or more skilled than some opponents. But the TOTAL PACKAGE of Foreman and Ali was generally LESS than the TOTAL PACKAGE of the average Klitschko opponent (let alone Klitchko himself, again).

Today's heavyweights are not more athletic, just because they weigh more. In fact a lot of them have poor technical skills that they should take up another profession.

[Max Power]

Jose 'King' Roman

In 1973, was proclaimed to have the 'fastest hands' in the Heavyweight Division.

Al Braveram said so...............

@Master

CASE IN POINT..

Here is the fight Foreman vs Roman...



This is a SHOCKING display of skills from Foreman, all I see is a big bully winging shots wide left and right with no regard for anything else until his mismatched opponent fell over because he was so weak he couldn't do anything about it.

And look how Paxtom pumps up Roman, as if this guy, that we can clearly see is not in ANY way comparable to even the smaller boxers with exceptional qualities (like Cunningham, Haye, Mormeck, Chambers, Byrd etc) let alone the real big boys like Povetkin, Pulev, Stiverne, Arreola, and so on!

Today Jennings is considered a little guy!

For Christ sake this is what passed for a TITLE fight in the 70's!

What a sick joke!

IRony, you do get it yourself right!

[Max Power]

There you go again degrading Foreman as a plodder and Ali as just a punch bag.

You think today's fighters are superior because of their weight.

You are wrong.

No I don't, I consider Foreman inferior to todays plodder sluggers, because he was a far lighter, less powerful, slower and less skilled and less defended version of them and he proved himself against far smaller and worse opponents.

I consider Ali inferior to todays skilful opponents because Ali had no punch by comparison and could not defend himself against a punch either, where as today's skilled oppoennts can bend around shots and not get hit often and can counter far quicker.

I consider both inferior to the champ, because of BOTH reasons combined.

They were both smaller, less athletic and less skilled than the average Klitschko opponents overall, let alone Klitschko himself!

I do not mean that they were all 3 of these at once. Foreman might be stronger than some opponents and Ali might be faster or more skilled than some opponents. But the TOTAL PACKAGE of Foreman and Ali was generally LESS than the TOTAL PACKAGE of the average Klitschko opponent (let alone Klitchko himself, again).

Today's heavyweights are not more athletic, just because they weigh more. In fact a lot of them have poor technical skills that they should take up another profession.

This is where exact clarity is needed and exactly where nostalgic fans overlook it..

There are sluggers with less skills, and skilled fighters of lower calibre in all eras. The champs of all eras have generally combined both features accounting for their success.

At HW you can be a chubby or an athletic boxer, both types can be successful at HW and always have been! It's boxing, not running!

The ATLETIC boxers today are more athletic than the ATHLETIC boxers of yesterday.

There are skilled boxers in every era and less skilled ones which make up for lack of skills with other qualities in every era, today and yesterday.

The SKILLED boxers today are more skilled than the SKILLED boxers of yesterday!

The problem with you is you like to make inappropriate comparisons like prime athletic Muhammad Ali to Chris Arreola in terms of athleticiem, where the correct comparison would be David Haye. (who is more athletic by far).

You also would try to compare the skills of Kenny Norton to those of say Lucas Browne, where the correct comparison would be to someone like say, Bryant Jennings.

If you want to make a comparison in size, you should compare someone like Frazier to Povetkin or Stiverne (who are also better skilled)

Of course the simplest comparison is champ to champ. Klitschko is bigger (by far), more athletic (by far) and more skilled (by so far it's beyond a joke).

I look at the total quality, the big picture. You seem only be able to focus on a single attribute at a time.

[Bill Paxtom]

Easy 'Der Max'

Dick Sadder {Manager for George Foreman} had to choose Big George's
1st Title defense opponent.

* Larry Middleton
* Jeff 'Candy Slim' Merrit
* Jose 'King' Roman

[Master]

Foreman was a gold medal Olympian so he had pedigree boxing skills. He was very powerful and so clubbed these fighters to win his matches. I am sure George would agree she should have developed his boxing skills particularly his jab, which he did in his comeback 20 years later. I think had he developed his skills and composure he would have beaten Ali.

Haye may be more athletic than Ali, he certainly was not as skilled.

Also remember Ali's peak was never seen. Anything he did after the comeback was a bonus as he lost his reflexes and had to use his durability won win fights. That is why he is no amazing.

[brocktonblockbust]

George Foreman in that Roman fight really showed his greatness. What a final finishing uppercut to knock the slick Roman's ass right the fuck OUT. Roman was down for 35 seconds before he could even get into a sitting position. WHAT BRUTE FORCE!! FOREMAN HIT HARDER WITH ONE HAND THAN BOTH KLITSCHKO'S TOGETHER, PLUS ADD IN DAVID FEATHER-FIST HAYE'S POWER

[Bill Paxtom]

Jose 'King' Roman

A hell of a good Puerto Rican Heavyweight.

May 1973

Age.......... 26 years, 6 months
Height ..... 5' 10"
Reach ..... 72"
Weight .... 196 lbs.

Record..... 43-7-1 {21 KO's}

Very fast-handed, and a good mover.

Jose was on a tear, and had gone {22-1-0} since August 1969 {3 years, 9 months}.

I would not have wanted to tangle with him.

[Max Power]

Foreman was a gold medal Olympian so he had pedigree boxing skills. He was very powerful and so clubbed these fighters to win his matches. I am sure George would agree she should have developed his boxing skills particularly his jab, which he did in his comeback 20 years later. I think had he developed his skills and composure he would have beaten Ali.

Haye may be more athletic than Ali, he certainly was not as skilled.

Also remember Ali's peak was never seen. Anything he did after the comeback was a bonus as he lost his reflexes and had to use his durability won win fights. That is why he is no amazing.

No version of Muhammad Ali ever came remotely close to having 1/5th the skills of David Haye, let's get that straight.

David Haye is possibly the fastest boxer with the fastest reflexes ever to box at HW. He finds his mark really often against longer ranged fighters and he barely ever gets hit in his fights he is so elusive. And he delivers outstanding shots of his own and has the agility of a cat.

What skills did Muhammad Ali have? He basically did a merry go round of his opponents and sliped them a couple of windmakers here and there and then ran away. And everytime he was cornered or he stayed in the pocket too long he got walloped by the slowest of shots. And this is the PRIME Ali!

The issue with your statement about Muhammad, is that PRIOR to his second career, Muhammad Ali NEVER FOUGHT A DECENT OPPONENT!

His best "win" would have been against Liston, a gift retirement which was otherwise even on the cards, and a rematch which was almost certainly a dive, strange circumstances surrounded which as well. So Ali 1st career never convincingly beat his best opponent.

Also he is credited with his apparently only proper KO win at this time, against Big Cat Williams, an opponent which could not even spar or train properly, had been gunshot the year prior and had large amount of his intestines and abdominal+pelvic organs removed and had a visibly atrophied leg and walked with a limp!

Unbelievable!

OBVIOUSLY Muhammad Ali 2 was better because he was heavier, stronger, more durable and more experienced than Muhammad Ali 1! How could it really be otherwise!

And just because Ali and Foreman didn't/couldn't fight during their physical primes (allegedly) does not mean they would have been better than David Haye or Wladimir Klitschko!

[Bill Paxtom]

Jack 'The Giant' O'Halloran

Talks about 'mass' > 6' 6" @ 235 lbs.

May 1973 > 32-16-2 {16 KO's}

'Jack the Giant' was riding a hot streak by going 8-1-0 {5 KO's} over the
previous 11-Months.

Jack {Age; 30 years, 1 month} was also the reigning California State Heavyweight
Champion.

Jack, who was ranked at #24, was seeking a bout with #12 ranked - Mac Foster.

[ykdadamaja]

Thanks for this, Bill. You made me go search for old fights. Found this one with Foreman SAVAGING Jose Roman in one round. SAVAGE! lolol....