Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy

[Violent Demise]

Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.

People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.

When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.

Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.

You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?

[Rantcatrat]

[QUOTE=Violent Demise;1152472]

If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever

Good call @Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.

I have a number of questions for you.

Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?

How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?

How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.

How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?

Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added a lot to his legacy?

[Beanflicker]

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

[Beanflicker]

You saw Pep and Saddler? How fucking old are you?

Old enough to turn on a DVD player or type in "youtube.com" apparently.

[Rantcatrat]

How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?

Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.

The same thing can be said for floyd.

Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.

Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?

However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course.

By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?

Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?

And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas

I'm not disagreeing with you there. It's actually my whole point. It's tough to compare Mayweather to someone like Duran when he never faced anyone on the level of the guys Duran faced. It's not his fault. It's not Wladimir Klitschko's fault either that there aren't any Ken Norton's, Sonny Liston's, George Foreman's, or Joe Frazier's.

Unfortunately, for Floyd and Wlad, the welterweight division and the heavyweight division haven't been exceptionally deep during their reigns, so they didn't get a chance to test their mettle against great fighters. The result though is that we can't rank them above the greats who we know faced other greats.

One more point is about the risks Duran took, which Floyd hasn't taken, even though Duran came out in defeat. Duran is a guy who started at lightweight and was 5'7. He's not all that different physically than Floyd, at the very least he's comparable in size. Yet, Duran fought Marvelous freaking Hagler at middleweight. He lost, but fighting Marvelous Hagler, for a guy who started at lightweight, is an unholy risk to take. It's riskier than Floyd fighting Sergio Martinez right now at middlweight. and Floyd won't even face him at junior middleweight.

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

[Beanflicker]

Pipino Cuevas SUCKED. Jose Luis Castillo was a killer back in his prime, back when Floyd beat him.

[Beanflicker]

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.

Who did Hagler beat, btw?

[Rantcatrat]

I've had this argument too many times to indulge. It always goes the same way: everyone Floyd ever fought was either a total bum, overrated, washed up, too small, fighting at the wrong weight, or screwed over by the ref. And of course everyone who Floyd never fought would have been "the guy" who really put the screws to him. If people want to believe that, cool.

Who has Floyd beat? Well, I'll tell you what: you give me your top 10 of all time and tell me who they've beat, and we can compare it to Floyd's resume. Then you can explain to me how guys like Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olsen, ect are so greater than opponents like prime Jose Luis Castillo and Ricky Hatton.

I don't want to have that argument either because I'm not guy who dislikes Floyd. I didn't intend the threat to devolve into that type of discussion. I wanted a discussion of legacy.

How about we start with Duran. How would you care to compare Duran's wins to Floyd's wins?

[Violent Demise]

Good call @Violent Demise . While I'm not sure that I agree with that statement, I agree that his win over Diego Corrales in 2001 was his career-best win. Corrales was ranked #5 p4p at the time they fought, and many people thought Floyd would lose.

I have a number of questions for you.

Was that win in 2001 at junior lightweight Floyd's best win?

How highly do you rank Corrales compared with other junior lightweights/super featherweights throughout history?

How highly do you rank a victory over Diego Corrales in terms of quality of win? Compare it to wins by other great fighters.

How much differently do you treat Castillo's win over Corrales in their rematch to their epic war? On that same note, how highly do you rank Casamayor's win over Corrales in their third (?) fight?

Even if you think that win would have been better than wins over Martinez at junior middlweight, or Cotto/Margarito in 2007, would those wins not have added a lot to his legacy?

It might not of been Mayweather's best win opponent wise. But it was clearly his best performance. The way he shut out and pretty much embarrassed Corrales was very impressive.

Not sure where I would rank Corrales in the all time list. I gotta think about that one

I don't treat Castillo win over Corrales any differently. He was overweight. But Corrales agreed to let the fight go on. And come fight night there wasn't much difference in weight.

Corrales was already on the decline going into the Casamayor fight. But so was Casamayor. I've always been partial to Casamayor. So obviously I rank it highly for him

Without a doubt. I won't argue with anybody that says Mayweather's legacy needs improving

[Rantcatrat]

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.

Who did Hagler beat, btw?

It's probably a losing argument. It wasn't the main point I was trying to make, which was to show the incredible risk Duran took in jumping to middleweight to fight Hagler, who a lot of guys ducked.

Would you rank a challenge to Martinez higher than a challenge to Hagler?

[imp]

Floyd never quits.

Duran did.

Compare that.

You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!

[beenKOed]

There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.

If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.

If anyone disagrees with your opinion of Floyd, lets take those SOBs out back and beat the shit out of them. How dare they!?!?

[Violent Demise]

Floyd never quits.

Duran did.

Compare that.

You will never see ricky hatton saying "no mas"!

You must of missed his last fight. He could of got up. But chose to stay down. He quit

[ray corso]

Don't care who he ducked or missed or any of that BS! I know Pacman was on the table atleast twice in legitament bouts and it wasn't signed by Floyd!! Oh well!

Floyd has real "in ring intelligence" he has terriffic hand speed and his intellect adds to his counterabilities! He is extremely difficult to square up on and has all the punches in his arsonal.

He also is NOT an ATG Welter to me, there are many men at 147 mark that could handle him mostly because he doesn't have welter size. He is very small compared to the greats and then their are a few his size that could fight right with him and give and take. The main reason for not allowing him in my top tier is his lack of power. He has the techniques but he simply doesn't generate the power to give away the size he gives up.

I'd have to rate him in at 135 (don't believe in the junior weight class BS) and he'd be in tuff there but I think could compete on a solid level. Again his lack of power would be effident against the top tier men but his hand and foot speed could make up for his defficiency in the lighter classes.

Great thinker, fast hands, one of the best counter movers and punchers but little power and not a front runner can be boring and stays calculating when he doesn't have to.
Great talent good fighter! Ray .

[Mr140]

Been you sound worse then the Floyde haters only the other way around dude. I rank Floyde in the top 15 not sure he breaks my top 10 because i have Leonard at 10 and i cant not rate Mayweather higher then Leonard. His best win is Castillo i would say and he pretty much lost the first fight at his best weight he did avenge it though. But saying that Leonard resume was far greater and he was amazing in the ring he i though also had more to his games in terms of offence as well but thats all up to judgement.