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Thread: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Andre would have beaten them too.

    Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.
    Last edited by Master; 04-15-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Adre would have beaten them too.

    Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.
    I also feel Ward is better than Jones Jr & Hopkins at the time they fought Calzaghe. Jones at 168 wins that fight in my opinion. A younger Hopkins also pushes Calzaghe and is a fight that could go either way. Ward and Kovalev would be very difficult fights for Joe and each would present many difficulties for him to overcome. We only saw Joe at 175 twice; against to aged legends who had both come from lower weights. Joe was also nearing the end of his career. I think both Ward and Kov would do very well against Calzaghe.

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Adre would have beaten them too.

    Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.
    I also feel Ward is better than Jones Jr & Hopkins at the time they fought Calzaghe. Jones at 168 wins that fight in my opinion. A younger Hopkins also pushes Calzaghe and is a fight that could go either way. Ward and Kovalev would be very difficult fights for Joe and each would present many difficulties for him to overcome. We only saw Joe at 175 twice; against to aged legends who had both come from lower weights. Joe was also nearing the end of his career. I think both Ward and Kov would do very well against Calzaghe.
    Joe's best weight was super middle and at that weight he probably could have beaten Ward but light heavy he would not be the clear favourite.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Adre would have beaten them too.

    Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.
    I also feel Ward is better than Jones Jr & Hopkins at the time they fought Calzaghe. Jones at 168 wins that fight in my opinion. A younger Hopkins also pushes Calzaghe and is a fight that could go either way. Ward and Kovalev would be very difficult fights for Joe and each would present many difficulties for him to overcome. We only saw Joe at 175 twice; against to aged legends who had both come from lower weights. Joe was also nearing the end of his career. I think both Ward and Kov would do very well against Calzaghe.
    Joe's best weight was super middle and at that weight he probably could have beaten Ward but light heavy he would not be the clear favourite.
    Ward's best weight was 168 as well.

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

    The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
    Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
    Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

    Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

    Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
    That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
    What's that got to do with anything?

    I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about what happened in the Brook-GGG fight.

    However, anyone that thinks GGG let Brook hit him on purpose is a div. And even if the punches didn't have an effect (claimed by idiots that weren't taking them - lol, couldn't make it up) they cost him two rounds on the judges cards. That's two rounds MORE than the five middleweights you mentioned could manage to win between them.
    So now you are comparing Brook to the great welterweights that challenged middleweights when you conveniently forgeting the fact that he only got his shot at GGG because Eubank Jnr turned it down and they had no decent opponent left.

    Triple G even said that Brook should stay at welterweight because his punches had no effect. I do not need to take them when I can see GGG smiling at Brook's effort.

    Remind me again what weight Brook is campaigning in his next fight?
    What are you babbling about now? Eubank Jr? Great welterweights? Brook's next fight is at welterweight?

    So what!?! None of that has anything to do with whether or not Brook was a better opponent than the middleweights you mentioned.

    Brook did better than them. Fact. Circumstances are irrelevant. Fact. I don't care what you think about Brook. Fact.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.

    The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
    Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
    Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?

    Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.

    Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
    That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
    What's that got to do with anything?

    I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about what happened in the Brook-GGG fight.

    However, anyone that thinks GGG let Brook hit him on purpose is a div. And even if the punches didn't have an effect (claimed by idiots that weren't taking them - lol, couldn't make it up) they cost him two rounds on the judges cards. That's two rounds MORE than the five middleweights you mentioned could manage to win between them.
    So now you are comparing Brook to the great welterweights that challenged middleweights when you conveniently forgeting the fact that he only got his shot at GGG because Eubank Jnr turned it down and they had no decent opponent left.

    Triple G even said that Brook should stay at welterweight because his punches had no effect. I do not need to take them when I can see GGG smiling at Brook's effort.

    Remind me again what weight Brook is campaigning in his next fight?
    What are you babbling about now? Eubank Jr? Great welterweights? Brook's next fight is at welterweight?

    So what!?! None of that has anything to do with whether or not Brook was a better opponent than the middleweights you mentioned.

    Brook did better than them. Fact. Circumstances are irrelevant. Fact. I don't care what you think about Brook. Fact.
    Are you still on this?

    Everything I have stated are relevant facts as to why Brook is not better than the middleweights GGG has faced.

    The circumstances are relevant irrespective of what I think about Brook. Size matters whether you like it or not.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
    That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.

    That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
    "Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.

    What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.

    In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.
    So Matthysse was shot now? I'm sure he was the fav going in? The fight with Crawford was a unification and they were considered the 2 best in the division. Sure the division may have been weak according to you but 126 wasn't much better. Crawford has been considered the lineal champ at both 135 and 140. Garcia holds a win over the guy that beat Loma and beat the other guy (Martinez) who you rate as one of Loma's best 3. He was also considered lineal at 126. Probably would have been at 130 as well had he not had the layoff. You said you have him clear at #1. That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. I'm just listing reasons as to why I would rate other fighters ahead of him. The cool thing is we have all these fighters that we can include in the debate and many of them are challenging themselves. Ward & Kov are set to go at it again. Crawford is taking on Diaz. Gonzalez will potentially rematch Cuardas or Wangek. Garcia looks on a collision course with Linares. Good times ahead.
    Yeah I think Matthysee has been a shadow since Garcia seriously damaged his eye. I put shot in quotation marks as it's just my opinion not a fact. The Matthysee from a few years ago would have decapitated Postol.

    Regardless of "lineal" or ranking position per division I think Walters and Russell Jr are much better than Postol. And Walters was no.1 at featherweight anyway before moving to superfeather.

    Rocky Martinez is one of Garcia's best wins in 36 fights, Loma has had just 9.

    All my point is - is that even ignoring Loma's incredible skillset, his competition isn't that far off everyone elses barring Ward and Chocolatito. That's all.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Andre would have beaten them too.

    Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.
    No, Ward would have beaten Jones quite easily, but Hopkins I am not so sure about. I meant that Hopkins and Jones in their prime were a league above anything Ward will amount to.

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    @Master - let me help you understand what answering a question means.

    Quote 1 is your claim that the middleweights - Geale, Rubio, Wade, Murray and Monroe are better names than Brook.

    1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe or Wade are better names for GGG than Brook.
    Quote 2 is your claim that they would all beat Brook.

    2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
    I then asked you to explain WHY/HOW Brook did BETTER against Golovkin than the names listed. To which you replied in quotes 3, 4 and 5

    3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
    What's this have to do with the question asked?

    4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    So now you are comparing Brook to the great welterweights that challenged middleweights when you conveniently forgeting the fact that he only got his shot at GGG because Eubank Jnr turned it down and they had no decent opponent left.

    Triple G even said that Brook should stay at welterweight because his punches had no effect. I do not need to take them when I can see GGG smiling at Brook's effort. Remind me again what weight Brook is campaigning in his next fight?
    What's this have to do with the question asked?

    5.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Everything I have stated are relevant facts as to why Brook is not better than the middleweights GGG has faced
    .

    Where? Where have you given a single relevant fact? Where have you explained that the middleweights are better than Brook? Please show me so I can consider your answer. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Arum was doing this hyping Mikey Garcia as P4P 1 b4 he lost him. So Loma is getting this treatment because Arum lost Garcia. He's just his replacement. Loma needs a Mikey Garcia on his resume to even be considered #1 Or he could go down and fight Rigo.

    This a guy who got beat by Salido (A close fight I thought Loma won) but is the P4P 1 ? Lol.

    Andre Ward is 1. No question about it. Would not even put Loma in the top 10. Andre Ward is the only one in the top 5 that's actually beaten another member of the P4P list. Loma’s resume is too weak. He’s working his way up though.


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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    @Fenster, the only reason Brook did "better" than the other middleweights was because GGG knew he could take Kell out, it is as simple as that.

    GGG hurt Kell in the first round and the rest was a formality. Brook punches did not have an affect on GGG, he was smiling at them.
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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    OK, so Golovkin let Brook do better than them? I suppose that means you believe Golovkin was puposely not hitting Brook as hard too, as you know like, they were all decked and were beaten far worse than Brook.

    Fair enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    OK, so Golovkin let Brook do better than them? I suppose that means you believe Golovkin was puposely not hitting Brook as hard too, as you know like, they were all decked and were beaten far worse than Brook.

    Fair enough.

    #shouldbanmyselffortalkingtodunces
    How can a fighter two weights below be tougher fight that contenders/ex champions at the weight the champion fights at?

    Illogical, but if it keeps you happy to think it does, then so be it.

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
    That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.

    That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
    "Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.

    What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.

    In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.
    So Matthysse was shot now? I'm sure he was the fav going in? The fight with Crawford was a unification and they were considered the 2 best in the division. Sure the division may have been weak according to you but 126 wasn't much better. Crawford has been considered the lineal champ at both 135 and 140. Garcia holds a win over the guy that beat Loma and beat the other guy (Martinez) who you rate as one of Loma's best 3. He was also considered lineal at 126. Probably would have been at 130 as well had he not had the layoff. You said you have him clear at #1. That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. I'm just listing reasons as to why I would rate other fighters ahead of him. The cool thing is we have all these fighters that we can include in the debate and many of them are challenging themselves. Ward & Kov are set to go at it again. Crawford is taking on Diaz. Gonzalez will potentially rematch Cuardas or Wangek. Garcia looks on a collision course with Linares. Good times ahead.
    Yeah I think Matthysee has been a shadow since Garcia seriously damaged his eye. I put shot in quotation marks as it's just my opinion not a fact. The Matthysee from a few years ago would have decapitated Postol.

    Regardless of "lineal" or ranking position per division I think Walters and Russell Jr are much better than Postol. And Walters was no.1 at featherweight anyway before moving to superfeather.

    Rocky Martinez is one of Garcia's best wins in 36 fights, Loma has had just 9.

    All my point is - is that even ignoring Loma's incredible skillset, his competition isn't that far off everyone elses barring Ward and Chocolatito. That's all.
    OK I understand what you meant now and I agree Loma is not far off. But I have to disagree with "Clear #1" for the reasons I've stated previously.

    Matthysse may have slipped but he was coming in off the Provodnikov win where he looked good. Russell Jr had fought no one going into their bout and I rate Postol's loss to Crawford about the same as Russell's to Loma. No shame in losing to a class fighter. Also Postol took his loss like a man so I could never rate Walters ahead of him. He may have been #1 at 126 but the fight took place at 130 where he hadn't won a title and his only fight was the "draw" with Sosa.

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    Default Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

    I thought I made it clear that I said "clear" as I based it on talent/skill/abilty more than records. Clearly I didn't make that clear ().

    @Master - Brook weighed 160 like all Golovkin's other middleweight opponents. It's irrelevant though as you've stated Golovkin let him do better than the others.

    If you believe it's illogical that fighters moving up in weight can't be tougher than men that already fight at the weight, I suggest you take a look back through the history of boxing. You will get the shock of your life mate.

    Seriously, these fighters will blow your mind - start with a Filipino fella named Manny Pacquiao, Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hearns, De La Hoya, Ricky Burns, Duke McKenzie.
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