Jet airliner shot down in Eastern Ukraine

[Beanflicker]

There was no motivation or anything to gain by the rebels shooting down a plane.

Yeah but isn't that making the assumption that they wanted to shoot down a civilian plane? In the leaked audio (not sure if that has been proven or disproven) they seemed very surprised that it was a civilian plane.

A week before this one, pro-Russian militants shot down a Ukrainian military plane and bragged about it, took pics and videos.

[Gandalf]

There was no motivation or anything to gain by the rebels shooting down a plane.

Yeah but isn't that making the assumption that they wanted to shoot down a civilian plane? In the leaked audio (not sure if that has been proven or disproven) they seemed very surprised that it was a civilian plane.

A week before this one, pro-Russian militants shot down a Ukrainian military plane and bragged about it, took pics and videos.

No planes should have been flying over there. It was almost as though they were being fed there and with jets to get them there. We know both sides could have shot, but the government had more of these weapons and had moved them.

You must always ask....who will gain from this? The guess about it says the Ukraine government, but when the facts come out that can change very easily. The Western tricks are always too obvious and it comes from a culture of employing dumb people who will just say the right things. They are decadent and sloppy. At least Russia plays in the real world, in terms of economy, military and diplomacy.

[Beanflicker]

You must always ask....who will gain from this?

Yeah but again that assumes that someone planned it, when most evidence I've seen points to pro-Russian militants gunning down a civilian plane that they mistook for a Ukrainian military or supply plane, the same kind that they openly gunned down a week before MH17.

Not everything has to be a deep conspiracy.

[Gandalf]

That isn't evidence and why I want an independent enquiry.

When it comes to a bankrupt country (US), the need for new raw materials etc and the backing of a coup, well there is no conspiracy.

Some countries have a history of false flags (Bin Laden/Afghanistan/Gulf of Tonkin/Iraq) etc. The US is almost on its last legs economically and they are being bold.

However, it looks like nobody believes them anymore. Since 9/11 just lots of lies and illegal wars, torture and rendition. People don't like that weirdness.

It isn't conspiracy, but when the Brics say we are having our system, that is a serious threat. For the next few years they will try every lie to demonise Putin, but of course ignore the horrors of Wall Street and the military industrial complex.

It's humility time for the US. Russia had it in the early 90's. America now needs to go through the same process. They could emerge better or else become like Puerto Rico.

[Beanflicker]

You seem to have a lot of emotional investment in it not being pro-Russian militants for whatever reason.

None of us know all the facts because we're not there and we're not directly involved. But when pro-Russian militants are shooting down planes and openly bragging about it a week before, and now they've openly shot down two more planes today... why is it so hard to believe the official line? That a civilian plane mistakenly wandered into the wrong airspace and the militants, who assumed it was a Ukrainian military plane (the kind they've openly been shooting out of the sky), opened fire on it. I just don't see what's so unbelievable about that account.

[Beanflicker]

Don't get me wrong, you'll get no argument from me that the American government are a bunch of choir boys, but Putin deserves the negative press he has been getting.

[Dia bando]

Yes Chaps we live in a fucked up World, people on a civilian flight get blown out of the sky,
no excuses this is not right, I don't give a shit who what or why, they are a bunch of bad
bastards.

[Master]

Yes Chaps we live in a fucked up World, people on a civilian flight get blown out of the sky,
no excuses this is not right, I don't give a shit who what or why, they are a bunch of bad
bastards.

We are worse for making the weapons and selling it to them.

[Kirkland Laing]

That isn't evidence and why I want an independent enquiry.

When it comes to a bankrupt country (US), the need for new raw materials etc and the backing of a coup, well there is no conspiracy.

Some countries have a history of false flags (Bin Laden/Afghanistan/Gulf of Tonkin/Iraq) etc. The US is almost on its last legs economically and they are being bold.

However, it looks like nobody believes them anymore. Since 9/11 just lots of lies and illegal wars, torture and rendition. People don't like that weirdness.

It isn't conspiracy, but when the Brics say we are having our system, that is a serious threat. For the next few years they will try every lie to demonise Putin, but of course ignore the horrors of Wall Street and the military industrial complex.

It's humility time for the US. Russia had it in the early 90's. America now needs to go through the same process. They could emerge better or else become like Puerto Rico.

Miles this is just nuts mate. There is so much wrong in this post it's like a Lyle post. I don't have the time to go through it but for fuck's sake. Like Beanflicker said what we're being told is what obviously happened. Unless you believe that the US somehow managed to get Ukrainian rebels to post on twitter saying they'd done it. Even Putin isn't blaming America because of just how fucking nuts it is.

[Beanz]

Lyle, Obama has nothing to do with anything. It is quite clear now that he is the fall guy and will be hung out to dry, but he is not a Russian separatist. Just wait though, Miles and Kirkland will be along shortly to blame it on the west as though evil men only exist on one side of a man made political divide.

Well I was half right. I apologise @Kirkland Laing. Miles get a grip mate, you are inverting truths in an attempt to redress the white washing and over simplification of Western News sources, but you must also acknowledge that in Russia you are very likely to have your liberty removed for protesting against the government, being Gay or playing a gig in a church. You simply undermine your own arguments when you blame one side exclusively for anything. The far right have a huge hold in Russia and that is not a good thing. Just because Cameron is a Bastard, Putin does not automatically get sainted overnight.

[Gandalf]

Greenbeanz, I just don't think Russia had anything to do with it. The fact that airline communications have been vanished by the Ukraine authorities, paints a telling picture. At the end of the day, they were right over a war zone so regardless of who shot, why did Ukraine send them there? It is very suspicious. Really the Ukraine elite are getting away with things and I think they are the prime targets. The West has an agenda, and it is laughably bad.

[Gandalf]

If my theories are so laughable, then maybe Russia should move weapons back into Cuba to put it all into perspective. Mano el mano. All such fun.

America is being the crazy here and that should never be forgotten. 5bn on a coup and ethnic cleansing in the East. Oh, but Russia is giving weapons to people who want independence! Sanctions!

Seriously? Israel? UK? America? What a joke. These nations have done terrible things and no sanctions. Putin sneezes and sanctions.

[Gandalf]

Don't get me wrong, you'll get no argument from me that the American government are a bunch of choir boys, but Putin deserves the negative press he has been getting.

But there is no evidence. It's a basic fact, but an important one. There is NO EVIDENCE that Putin was directly connected.

[Gandalf]

So my point it why on earth do they have sanctions on Russia.

The reasons are simple.
1. The West (Britain, USA, Japan) are dead in the water fiscally. Anything to get the system into some action. Of course, nobody should fight for these people.
2. Look at the Federal Reserve. It should be banned. War is their only way out.
3. Bank of England. Run by a Moose, called Carney. He has nothing. Interest rates rise and his head is on a spike. They don't and he can deflect. Basically the UK is broke.

The clamor for war is manufactured shit, and nobody should follow the script.

[Kirkland Laing]

So my point it why on earth do they have sanctions on Russia.

The reasons are simple.
1. The West (Britain, USA, Japan) are dead in the water fiscally. Anything to get the system into some action. Of course, nobody should fight for these people.
2. Look at the Federal Reserve. It should be banned. War is their only way out.
3. Bank of England. Run by a Moose, called Carney. He has nothing. Interest rates rise and his head is on a spike. They don't and he can deflect. Basically the UK is broke.

The clamor for war is manufactured shit, and nobody should follow the script.

1. Western economies are struggling so the answer is to do something that will put energy prices up and reduce economic activity, thus making the problems of the western economies even bigger?

2. I'm looking at the Federal Reserve. It's a central bank. You can't ban it, we need it and all the other central banks. Since central banks started doing what central banks do back in 1826 the world has gone from incredibly slow growth withregular depressions lasting decades to basically uniterrupted fast economic growth. Apart from a few fringe loonies everybody agrees central banks are a good idea.

And what the fuck does the Federal Reserve have to do with sanctions on Russia? I've only read the post I've replied to since I was last in this thread and I'm not fucking reading any more.