Canelo eyes another lame zebra

[Spicoli]

Dazn failed coming Stateside and Andrade managed to tie the anchor around his career. Now they kneecap annual subscribers with ppv. But Canelo and Bivol is an honest fight me thinks..a rarity. Thought for sure he would make him come down as CW . Undercard better be decent. Yes that still matters.

[TitoFan]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

[Vendettos]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

[TitoFan]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

Hi Vendettos. Same here bro.

Look... I know some of what you're going to say. I'm just a Canelo hater... and so on and so forth.

True... I've never sympathized with Canelo ever since he started his career being brought up more gently than a prematurely born baby.

I've always been adamantly against hype... and when hype precedes the reality or even worse... when the hype is created by a media starving for a handsome, matinee idol star... I'm totally against it.

I could've predicted Canelo's career path ever since he followed the tried and true formula of "let's feed him 50 corpses in his own backyard to start his career"... and let's bloat his record to sell him more easily.

Even staunch Canelo defenders admit to his having truly lost several fights on his way to the top.

But again... the only way to get a decision against Canelo in Vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint.

But you mentioned "the idiots with the Mayweather effect" and that had to be addressed.

Again... I've disliked Floyd the person for a long time. He's not as bad as Broner... but not a very likable chap. So I've no reason to root for him.

And yes... I rooted against him many a time.

But I gotta call a spade a spade.

Starting with Diego Corrales, Floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition, many of whom were perfectly capable of defeating him on a good night.

Save for Arturo Gatti. That was a predictable one-sided slaughter.

Baldomir was nothing to write home about... and JMM was woefully undersized and should've never taken that fight.

But by and large Floyd fought all comers... and they posed credible risks.

My memory may fail me... but I just don't remember the negotiation shenanigans with Floyd that were a staple of Canelo fights. Again... the Pac fight should've happened years before. But that's another story.

Floyd never ducked anybody. He never let fights marinate. The opposition was there... Floyd faced it.

Cotto gave him a pretty good fight. Maidana gave him a hell of a fight.

Floyd never starved anybody. He never dragged anyone to his weight. (Again... save the JMM fight).

Floyd did all this... while being one of the most disliked champions in boxing. To me... that just adds to his greatness.

Sometimes we gotta tip our hats to fighters we don't like.

But it's gotta be real.... not manufactured.

If Canelo fights Bivol on the level... good for him. About time he started leaving this shit show behind and take some real risks.

[Master]

A fight against Kamaru Usman is one that Mexican boxing phenomenon Canelo Alvarez refuses to rule out.

During his appearance on The MMA Hour this week, he said that he is now more open to the idea of competing against Usman than he had been previously. “Maybe. Why not? You never say no,” he said.

The current undisputed super-middleweight champion has been on Usman’s radar for a while and has been called out numerous times by the Nigerian-American MMA superstar.

Usman has done the rounds of all the contenders the UFC welterweight division has to offer, leaving all those behind. The reigning champion is likely to contend against Leon Edwards in a rematch to once again defend his title.

It seems like that the fantastic encounter with Saul “Canelo” Alvarez is at the forefront of his mind and he has backed himself to win the fight.

“Absolutely I see myself winning that fight. And that’s the thing that a lot of people fail to realise. A lot of people, because they think they can’t do something, they try to put that upon you.”

It was around November 2021 when Usman firsts expressed his interest in a crossover fight against Canelo – the man who is widely considered to be the best boxer in the world.

Money seems to be the main motivation for Canelo to engage in this match-up and when you look at the last time we saw a fight of a similar vein, both Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather took home a pretty penny.

Per The Sun, a figure of $100 million is being batted about by both parties.

Usman has also expressed his want for a large sum of money with some reports saying he also wants a $100 million purse for this contention against the highest-paid boxer in the world.

Now that is a lot for one fight.

He said: “He’s walking around saying payday, payday – absolutely. It’s the biggest payday you are ever gonna make.

“I understand that he gets paid, he makes money.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/boxi...cid=entnewsntp

[TIC]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

Hi Vendettos. Same here bro.

Look... I know some of what you're going to say. I'm just a Canelo hater... and so on and so forth.

True... I've never sympathized with Canelo ever since he started his career being brought up more gently than a prematurely born baby.

I've always been adamantly against hype... and when hype precedes the reality or even worse... when the hype is created by a media starving for a handsome, matinee idol star... I'm totally against it.

I could've predicted Canelo's career path ever since he followed the tried and true formula of "let's feed him 50 corpses in his own backyard to start his career"... and let's bloat his record to sell him more easily.

Even staunch Canelo defenders admit to his having truly lost several fights on his way to the top.

But again... the only way to get a decision against Canelo in Vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint.

But you mentioned "the idiots with the Mayweather effect" and that had to be addressed.

Again... I've disliked Floyd the person for a long time. He's not as bad as Broner... but not a very likable chap. So I've no reason to root for him.

And yes... I rooted against him many a time.

But I gotta call a spade a spade.

Starting with Diego Corrales, Floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition, many of whom were perfectly capable of defeating him on a good night.

Save for Arturo Gatti. That was a predictable one-sided slaughter.

Baldomir was nothing to write home about... and JMM was woefully undersized and should've never taken that fight.

But by and large Floyd fought all comers... and they posed credible risks.

My memory may fail me... but I just don't remember the negotiation shenanigans with Floyd that were a staple of Canelo fights. Again... the Pac fight should've happened years before. But that's another story.

Floyd never ducked anybody. He never let fights marinate. The opposition was there... Floyd faced it.

Cotto gave him a pretty good fight. Maidana gave him a hell of a fight.

Floyd never starved anybody. He never dragged anyone to his weight. (Again... save the JMM fight).

Floyd did all this... while being one of the most disliked champions in boxing. To me... that just adds to his greatness.

Sometimes we gotta tip our hats to fighters we don't like.

But it's gotta be real.... not manufactured.

If Canelo fights Bivol on the level... good for him. About time he started leaving this shit show behind and take some real risks.

i am a staunch canelo supporter & think he has only lost two fights on his way to the top. did floyd have to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision? floyd did not go on a tear of great opposition after diego. i'll give you jose luis times two. floyd didn't fight all comers. he should have fought joel or acelino. kostya. winky. antonio or miguel instead of retiring. pac around two thousand ten. sergio around two thousand ten. those guys would have posed credible risks. the pac fight is definition of marinate. floyd didn't face the best opposition when it was there. floyd wanted a catchweight with canelo & he brought dinamita up two weight classes. canelo fought an unbeaten austin. followed by an unbeaten floyd. he fought erislandy. an unbeaten ggg twice. danny. callum, billy joe & caleb were all unbeaten champions as well. & now canelo is scheduled to move up in weight to face another unbeaten champion. seems pretty real to me. austin, floyd, erislandy, ggg, danny & callum, maybe even billy joe were perceived risked when canelo fought them

[Primo Carnera]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

Hi Vendettos. Same here bro.

Look... I know some of what you're going to say. I'm just a Canelo hater... and so on and so forth.

True... I've never sympathized with Canelo ever since he started his career being brought up more gently than a prematurely born baby.

I've always been adamantly against hype... and when hype precedes the reality or even worse... when the hype is created by a media starving for a handsome, matinee idol star... I'm totally against it.

I could've predicted Canelo's career path ever since he followed the tried and true formula of "let's feed him 50 corpses in his own backyard to start his career"... and let's bloat his record to sell him more easily.

Even staunch Canelo defenders admit to his having truly lost several fights on his way to the top.

But again... the only way to get a decision against Canelo in Vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint.

But you mentioned "the idiots with the Mayweather effect" and that had to be addressed.

Again... I've disliked Floyd the person for a long time. He's not as bad as Broner... but not a very likable chap. So I've no reason to root for him.

And yes... I rooted against him many a time.

But I gotta call a spade a spade.

Starting with Diego Corrales, Floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition, many of whom were perfectly capable of defeating him on a good night.

Save for Arturo Gatti. That was a predictable one-sided slaughter.

Baldomir was nothing to write home about... and JMM was woefully undersized and should've never taken that fight.

But by and large Floyd fought all comers... and they posed credible risks.

My memory may fail me... but I just don't remember the negotiation shenanigans with Floyd that were a staple of Canelo fights. Again... the Pac fight should've happened years before. But that's another story.

Floyd never ducked anybody. He never let fights marinate. The opposition was there... Floyd faced it.

Cotto gave him a pretty good fight. Maidana gave him a hell of a fight.

Floyd never starved anybody. He never dragged anyone to his weight. (Again... save the JMM fight).

Floyd did all this... while being one of the most disliked champions in boxing. To me... that just adds to his greatness.

Sometimes we gotta tip our hats to fighters we don't like.

But it's gotta be real.... not manufactured.

If Canelo fights Bivol on the level... good for him. About time he started leaving this shit show behind and take some real risks.

i am a staunch canelo supporter & think he has only lost two fights on his way to the top. did floyd have to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision? floyd did not go on a tear of great opposition after diego. i'll give you jose luis times two. floyd didn't fight all comers. he should have fought joel or acelino. kostya. winky. antonio or miguel instead of retiring. pac around two thousand ten. sergio around two thousand ten. those guys would have posed credible risks. the pac fight is definition of marinate. floyd didn't face the best opposition when it was there. floyd wanted a catchweight with canelo & he brought dinamita up two weight classes. canelo fought an unbeaten austin. followed by an unbeaten floyd. he fought erislandy. an unbeaten ggg twice. danny. callum, billy joe & caleb were all unbeaten champions as well. & now canelo is scheduled to move up in weight to face another unbeaten champion. seems pretty real to me. austin, floyd, erislandy, ggg, danny & callum, maybe even billy joe were perceived risked when canelo fought them

Wait a minute, is this long post a way of you trying to convince people Canelo is better than Floyd or higher in lists or something?

[TIC]

Soooooo..... DAZN is offering a PPV fee of $60 to current subscribers and $80 to new subscribers. A whole $20 savings to those already doling out subscription fees. Wow. I'm really missing out.

As far as the two fights, I've already gone on record for giving Canelo credit for the Bivol fight. That doesn't change my opinion of him and the hype machinery that created him. But yeah... I'll give him credit.

GGG?

Please.

Golovkin didn't take advantage when he had the chance, and opted for leaving it up to the Las Vegas judges (whew... excuse me).

He obviously didn't get the memo that the only way you get a decision against Canelo in Vegas is if Canelo's out cold and can't be upright to get his hand raised.

GGG gave Canelo too much respect and, even though he actually won the first fight..... (see sentence above).

Now Golovkin's OLDER... Canelo's BIGGER... and of course I've always known that Ginger's got a pretty good chin.

So why the FUKK is this fight happening in the first place??!??

I know... to further Ginger's legacy by knocking out a decrepit old man.

GGG couldn't do it the first two times. What's the fukking point of them trying it again??



Now... after all is said and done... is Ginger ever going to face Beterbiev?

Or is that fight going to marinate until Artur is 40 years old?

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

Hi Vendettos. Same here bro.

Look... I know some of what you're going to say. I'm just a Canelo hater... and so on and so forth.

True... I've never sympathized with Canelo ever since he started his career being brought up more gently than a prematurely born baby.

I've always been adamantly against hype... and when hype precedes the reality or even worse... when the hype is created by a media starving for a handsome, matinee idol star... I'm totally against it.

I could've predicted Canelo's career path ever since he followed the tried and true formula of "let's feed him 50 corpses in his own backyard to start his career"... and let's bloat his record to sell him more easily.

Even staunch Canelo defenders admit to his having truly lost several fights on his way to the top.

But again... the only way to get a decision against Canelo in Vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint.

But you mentioned "the idiots with the Mayweather effect" and that had to be addressed.

Again... I've disliked Floyd the person for a long time. He's not as bad as Broner... but not a very likable chap. So I've no reason to root for him.

And yes... I rooted against him many a time.

But I gotta call a spade a spade.

Starting with Diego Corrales, Floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition, many of whom were perfectly capable of defeating him on a good night.

Save for Arturo Gatti. That was a predictable one-sided slaughter.

Baldomir was nothing to write home about... and JMM was woefully undersized and should've never taken that fight.

But by and large Floyd fought all comers... and they posed credible risks.

My memory may fail me... but I just don't remember the negotiation shenanigans with Floyd that were a staple of Canelo fights. Again... the Pac fight should've happened years before. But that's another story.

Floyd never ducked anybody. He never let fights marinate. The opposition was there... Floyd faced it.

Cotto gave him a pretty good fight. Maidana gave him a hell of a fight.

Floyd never starved anybody. He never dragged anyone to his weight. (Again... save the JMM fight).

Floyd did all this... while being one of the most disliked champions in boxing. To me... that just adds to his greatness.

Sometimes we gotta tip our hats to fighters we don't like.

But it's gotta be real.... not manufactured.

If Canelo fights Bivol on the level... good for him. About time he started leaving this shit show behind and take some real risks.

i am a staunch canelo supporter & think he has only lost two fights on his way to the top. did floyd have to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision? floyd did not go on a tear of great opposition after diego. i'll give you jose luis times two. floyd didn't fight all comers. he should have fought joel or acelino. kostya. winky. antonio or miguel instead of retiring. pac around two thousand ten. sergio around two thousand ten. those guys would have posed credible risks. the pac fight is definition of marinate. floyd didn't face the best opposition when it was there. floyd wanted a catchweight with canelo & he brought dinamita up two weight classes. canelo fought an unbeaten austin. followed by an unbeaten floyd. he fought erislandy. an unbeaten ggg twice. danny. callum, billy joe & caleb were all unbeaten champions as well. & now canelo is scheduled to move up in weight to face another unbeaten champion. seems pretty real to me. austin, floyd, erislandy, ggg, danny & callum, maybe even billy joe were perceived risked when canelo fought them

Wait a minute, is this long post a way of you trying to convince people Canelo is better than Floyd or higher in lists or something?

just responding to the statements that were made

[TitoFan]

I gave Canelo both fights, without issue.

I don’t get the controversy. It’s just idiots with the Mayweather effect, just hoping he loses.

GGG wasn’t good enough then and isn’t good enough now that he is older.

I am not like a “super” Canelo fan or anything either, but he won.

His only option is to go to LW (which he has done again) or CW, as there is literally no one to test him, short of somehow getting to the weight to fight Crawford.

Which he won’t do because it’s pointless and he destroys Crawford in a few rounds.

He really shows that level matter. He is just levels above everyone.

Beterbiev is not even worth mentioning because he is a scumbag from a scumbag country.

You thought Canelo won both GGG fights... fair enough. I would venture to say you're in the minority, if I were to base it on opinions you read and hear across the board. But such is the nature of boxing decisions.

Your comparison to the "Mayweather effect", as you call it, is (if I'm to be kind) puzzling to say the least. I never liked Floyd the person... and many times rooted against him. But in no way does his resume and Canelo's compare. Floyd went headlong into challenges, undefeated record be damned. Other than the Pacquiao fight, which took way too long to materialize, Floyd faced all comers. No weight draining... no diva clauses... no marinating. You can't say the judges were bought because most judges probably wanted him to lose also. Floyd was, for all intents and purposes, not a very likable guy.

But Floyd's list of opponents over the years reads like a Who's Who of boxing. Most were at or close to their peak. Floyd never jumped two divisions to grab a trinket from a woefully weak belt-holder simply for the trinket's sake. And this is all from a person who never liked Floyd.

So spare us the "Mayweather effect" comparison, please. It does not apply here. If you can't see how Mayweather's and Canelo's careers have been way different, I'm afraid I can't help you there.

Has Floyd regressed into a carnival act? Fighting bozos like McGregor and Logan Paul? Absolutely. An ATG of his caliber cannot stand being out of the spotlight. But that's neither here nor there. When he was actively fighting, he fought many of the best out there. There was never this preconceived, carefully put together strategy to preserve his precious "0". In fact, several times he came perilously close to losing it.

BTW... nothing wrong with being a "super" Canelo fan. Own up to it.

Hey Tito! Hope you are good. i’ve read over the message, however I don’t have the time to reply right now buddy.

I will reply soon. 👍 once again I hope you and yours are good.

Hi Vendettos. Same here bro.

Look... I know some of what you're going to say. I'm just a Canelo hater... and so on and so forth.

True... I've never sympathized with Canelo ever since he started his career being brought up more gently than a prematurely born baby.

I've always been adamantly against hype... and when hype precedes the reality or even worse... when the hype is created by a media starving for a handsome, matinee idol star... I'm totally against it.

I could've predicted Canelo's career path ever since he followed the tried and true formula of "let's feed him 50 corpses in his own backyard to start his career"... and let's bloat his record to sell him more easily.

Even staunch Canelo defenders admit to his having truly lost several fights on his way to the top.

But again... the only way to get a decision against Canelo in Vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint.

But you mentioned "the idiots with the Mayweather effect" and that had to be addressed.

Again... I've disliked Floyd the person for a long time. He's not as bad as Broner... but not a very likable chap. So I've no reason to root for him.

And yes... I rooted against him many a time.

But I gotta call a spade a spade.

Starting with Diego Corrales, Floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition, many of whom were perfectly capable of defeating him on a good night.

Save for Arturo Gatti. That was a predictable one-sided slaughter.

Baldomir was nothing to write home about... and JMM was woefully undersized and should've never taken that fight.

But by and large Floyd fought all comers... and they posed credible risks.

My memory may fail me... but I just don't remember the negotiation shenanigans with Floyd that were a staple of Canelo fights. Again... the Pac fight should've happened years before. But that's another story.

Floyd never ducked anybody. He never let fights marinate. The opposition was there... Floyd faced it.

Cotto gave him a pretty good fight. Maidana gave him a hell of a fight.

Floyd never starved anybody. He never dragged anyone to his weight. (Again... save the JMM fight).

Floyd did all this... while being one of the most disliked champions in boxing. To me... that just adds to his greatness.

Sometimes we gotta tip our hats to fighters we don't like.

But it's gotta be real.... not manufactured.

If Canelo fights Bivol on the level... good for him. About time he started leaving this shit show behind and take some real risks.

i am a staunch canelo supporter & think he has only lost two fights on his way to the top. did floyd have to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision? floyd did not go on a tear of great opposition after diego. i'll give you jose luis times two. floyd didn't fight all comers. he should have fought joel or acelino. kostya. winky. antonio or miguel instead of retiring. pac around two thousand ten. sergio around two thousand ten. those guys would have posed credible risks. the pac fight is definition of marinate. floyd didn't face the best opposition when it was there. floyd wanted a catchweight with canelo & he brought dinamita up two weight classes. canelo fought an unbeaten austin. followed by an unbeaten floyd. he fought erislandy. an unbeaten ggg twice. danny. callum, billy joe & caleb were all unbeaten champions as well. & now canelo is scheduled to move up in weight to face another unbeaten champion. seems pretty real to me. austin, floyd, erislandy, ggg, danny & callum, maybe even billy joe were perceived risked when canelo fought them

Wait a minute, is this long post a way of you trying to convince people Canelo is better than Floyd or higher in lists or something?

I don't think even tic is delusional enough to say that... although sometimes I wonder.

Suffice it to say that boxing is one of those sports where if you try hard enough... you can build up or tear down anybody's resume by picking and choosing.

tic, you went to great lengths to talk about who Floyd "didn't fight" rather than who he "did" fight. Amateurish tactic.

I noticed you didn't mention Carlos Hernandez, who he faced right after Corrales and who... to those of us who do know something about boxing... was more than just a credible opponent (Hernandez, that is). Strike one.

You also skipped DeMarcus Corley who, before he stayed way too long and became a punching bag for rising fighters, was one of the avoided fighters in boxing. Before losing an SD to Zab Judah and the UD to Floyd, he won a fight against the very highly regarded Randall Bailey who, again... for casual fans who may not know who he was, may not mean much.

But no... you choose rather to choose names of those he didn't fight, like Casamayor and Freitas. If Floyd had fought them instead, you would've been chirping about how he didn't fight Corley or Hernandez.

I mentioned Judah. You didn't bring him up either. The very dangerous Zab Judah who Floyd faced at that time. But no... you choose to mention how Floyd didn't fight a much bigger Winky Wright.

Hey dude. If you're going to go down this road... up your game.

Let's talk Ginger now.

Please don't talk about Floyd vs Ginger catchweights and save yourself the embarrassment. Ginger was visibly bigger than Floyd, and got shut out, schooled, no-hit, and just plain humiliated by an undersized ATG who showed the world that Ginger never belonged in the same ring with him. Only Ginger's adoring masses made that fight possible. It was like an intermission in Floyd's career. He's even talked about how easy it was to defeat Ginger. And the "gunpoint" reference? Puzzling as all hell, but not important enough to even ask about.

You talk about the fighters that Ginger fought, but you fail to mention the laughable opposition he's had. Amir Khan. Ring a bell? The idiot jumps up TWO weight divisions, and gets smacked into oblivion by a stationary Ginger who only had to land one punch. Some competitive fight, huh?

How about Rocky Fielding? Should I go on about him? Why didn't you bring him up, tic? Because he was a trinket grab? How about Yildirim? Why didn't you mention him?

Catchweights and marinating. Those words weren't even on the boxing dictionary until Ginger came along. Before Ginger fighters just fought whoever was next on the queue.

Now there's a fukking computer that spits out risk/reward numbers on prospective Ginger opponents.

But that's what MILLENIAL boxing fans like... so who are the rest of us to judge?

[TIC]

i didn't rate el famoso as great opposition when floyd fought him. not over joel or acelino. demarcus is far from great opposition. had lost to zab, why not fight zab before he lost to cory? i would have always wanted floyd to fight joel or acelino over el famoso before moving up. & i would have always wanted floyd to face kostya & zab before he lost to cory over demarcus. zab had already lost to tata baldomir when floyd faced him, i can't call that great opposition. floyd should have lost on a disqualification to zab as well. floyd called out winky & then backed out of the fight. my response is in disagreement to your statement that starting with diego corrales, floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition & i stand by my response. even diego was facing jail time & weight drained. floyd wanted a catchweight for canelo. there is nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter, especially if you learn from it & improve, which i feel canelo has done. the gun point reference was to your statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint. floyd fought canelo in vegas, so i asked if he had to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision as you claimed must be done. why would i mention amir as a canelo opponent when i am talking about percieved risks? same with rocky & avni, why would i mention them when i am talking about canelo's perceived risks. pac was asking for catchweights before canelo even fought shane. marinating has been around long before canelo, sometimes leading to fights not happening at all. canelo is taking another risk in moving up to face the unbeaten dmitry next

[Master]

There was no need for Floyd to face Judah when Zab had just lost his titles to Baldimor.

[Primo Carnera]

i didn't rate el famoso as great opposition when floyd fought him. not over joel or acelino. demarcus is far from great opposition. had lost to zab, why not fight zab before he lost to cory? i would have always wanted floyd to fight joel or acelino over el famoso before moving up. & i would have always wanted floyd to face kostya & zab before he lost to cory over demarcus. zab had already lost to tata baldomir when floyd faced him, i can't call that great opposition. floyd should have lost on a disqualification to zab as well. floyd called out winky & then backed out of the fight. my response is in disagreement to your statement that starting with diego corrales, floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition & i stand by my response. even diego was facing jail time & weight drained. floyd wanted a catchweight for canelo. there is nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter, especially if you learn from it & improve, which i feel canelo has done. the gun point reference was to your statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint. floyd fought canelo in vegas, so i asked if he had to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision as you claimed must be done. why would i mention amir as a canelo opponent when i am talking about percieved risks? same with rocky & avni, why would i mention them when i am talking about canelo's perceived risks. pac was asking for catchweights before canelo even fought shane. marinating has been around long before canelo, sometimes leading to fights not happening at all. canelo is taking another risk in moving up to face the unbeaten dmitry next

No, Floyd didn’t have to hold the judges at gunpoint for a decision…………….But he nearly did! He won EVERY ROUND, YES EVERY FUCKING ROUND, AND ONE JUDGE STILL GAVE IT AS A DRAW!!
Bear in mind , Floyd was the A-side, and is hardly not lacking in influence himself.
So to get it even that close is plain ridiculous.

[TIC]

i didn't rate el famoso as great opposition when floyd fought him. not over joel or acelino. demarcus is far from great opposition. had lost to zab, why not fight zab before he lost to cory? i would have always wanted floyd to fight joel or acelino over el famoso before moving up. & i would have always wanted floyd to face kostya & zab before he lost to cory over demarcus. zab had already lost to tata baldomir when floyd faced him, i can't call that great opposition. floyd should have lost on a disqualification to zab as well. floyd called out winky & then backed out of the fight. my response is in disagreement to your statement that starting with diego corrales, floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition & i stand by my response. even diego was facing jail time & weight drained. floyd wanted a catchweight for canelo. there is nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter, especially if you learn from it & improve, which i feel canelo has done. the gun point reference was to your statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint. floyd fought canelo in vegas, so i asked if he had to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision as you claimed must be done. why would i mention amir as a canelo opponent when i am talking about percieved risks? same with rocky & avni, why would i mention them when i am talking about canelo's perceived risks. pac was asking for catchweights before canelo even fought shane. marinating has been around long before canelo, sometimes leading to fights not happening at all. canelo is taking another risk in moving up to face the unbeaten dmitry next

No, Floyd didn’t have to hold the judges at gunpoint for a decision…………….But he nearly did! He won EVERY ROUND, YES EVERY FUCKING ROUND, AND ONE JUDGE STILL GAVE IT AS A DRAW!!
Bear in mind , Floyd was the A-side, and is hardly not lacking in influence himself.
So to get it even that close is plain ridiculous.

so titofans statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint is false? i didn't think floyd won every round. floyd was the a-side & not lacking in influence hhimself. i don't think a draw is ridiculous. i had canelo losing but i could see a case for two extra rounds that a judge might have given to canelo that would make it a draw

[Primo Carnera]

i didn't rate el famoso as great opposition when floyd fought him. not over joel or acelino. demarcus is far from great opposition. had lost to zab, why not fight zab before he lost to cory? i would have always wanted floyd to fight joel or acelino over el famoso before moving up. & i would have always wanted floyd to face kostya & zab before he lost to cory over demarcus. zab had already lost to tata baldomir when floyd faced him, i can't call that great opposition. floyd should have lost on a disqualification to zab as well. floyd called out winky & then backed out of the fight. my response is in disagreement to your statement that starting with diego corrales, floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition & i stand by my response. even diego was facing jail time & weight drained. floyd wanted a catchweight for canelo. there is nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter, especially if you learn from it & improve, which i feel canelo has done. the gun point reference was to your statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint. floyd fought canelo in vegas, so i asked if he had to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision as you claimed must be done. why would i mention amir as a canelo opponent when i am talking about percieved risks? same with rocky & avni, why would i mention them when i am talking about canelo's perceived risks. pac was asking for catchweights before canelo even fought shane. marinating has been around long before canelo, sometimes leading to fights not happening at all. canelo is taking another risk in moving up to face the unbeaten dmitry next

No, Floyd didn’t have to hold the judges at gunpoint for a decision…………….But he nearly did! He won EVERY ROUND, YES EVERY FUCKING ROUND, AND ONE JUDGE STILL GAVE IT AS A DRAW!!
Bear in mind , Floyd was the A-side, and is hardly not lacking in influence himself.
So to get it even that close is plain ridiculous.

so titofans statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint is false? i didn't think floyd won every round. floyd was the a-side & not lacking in influence hhimself. i don't think a draw is ridiculous. i had canelo losing but i could see a case for two extra rounds that a judge might have given to canelo that would make it a draw

You think it was that close huh! Fuck me, I find your views on Covid more plausible than that!

[TIC]

i didn't rate el famoso as great opposition when floyd fought him. not over joel or acelino. demarcus is far from great opposition. had lost to zab, why not fight zab before he lost to cory? i would have always wanted floyd to fight joel or acelino over el famoso before moving up. & i would have always wanted floyd to face kostya & zab before he lost to cory over demarcus. zab had already lost to tata baldomir when floyd faced him, i can't call that great opposition. floyd should have lost on a disqualification to zab as well. floyd called out winky & then backed out of the fight. my response is in disagreement to your statement that starting with diego corrales, floyd went on a tear of fighting great opposition & i stand by my response. even diego was facing jail time & weight drained. floyd wanted a catchweight for canelo. there is nothing wrong with losing to a great fighter, especially if you learn from it & improve, which i feel canelo has done. the gun point reference was to your statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint. floyd fought canelo in vegas, so i asked if he had to threaten the judges at gunpoint to get the decision as you claimed must be done. why would i mention amir as a canelo opponent when i am talking about percieved risks? same with rocky & avni, why would i mention them when i am talking about canelo's perceived risks. pac was asking for catchweights before canelo even fought shane. marinating has been around long before canelo, sometimes leading to fights not happening at all. canelo is taking another risk in moving up to face the unbeaten dmitry next

No, Floyd didn’t have to hold the judges at gunpoint for a decision…………….But he nearly did! He won EVERY ROUND, YES EVERY FUCKING ROUND, AND ONE JUDGE STILL GAVE IT AS A DRAW!!
Bear in mind , Floyd was the A-side, and is hardly not lacking in influence himself.
So to get it even that close is plain ridiculous.

so titofans statement that the only way to get a decision against canelo in vegas (his backyard) is to threaten the judges at gunpoint is false? i didn't think floyd won every round. floyd was the a-side & not lacking in influence hhimself. i don't think a draw is ridiculous. i had canelo losing but i could see a case for two extra rounds that a judge might have given to canelo that would make it a draw

You think it was that close huh! Fuck me, I find your views on Covid more plausible than that!

i had floyd winning one sixteen to one twelve