Shoulder Rolling

[Salty]

Just wondering if you guys are taught to roll with punches? I've just been reading through the wisdom of Grey and ThomasT which has been put up by ChrisNagel (won't let me rep you sorry). Anyways there's a post or two talking about rolling when blocking. I've never been taught to roll with punches at all, kind of makes me annoyed, especially when sparring with guys 10kg+ more than me and just really absorbing blows with my gloves and head. Does anyone have a good video or able to describe how to roll effectively? I feel this is one thing which I should be focussing on as footwork can only get you so far defencively.

[Scrap]

Salty if you go to Seeing the Lights The Rolling Technique is used there to good effect, its only one Role though. Done with Shoulders Knees and Feet.

[Chris Nagel]

Being able to shoulder roll depends entirely on your stance. This is where all video instructionals fail because they're using a squared up stance which is not conducive for rolling to begin with. That stance means that your shoulder would have too much distance to travel in order to be effective.

Any fighter that was good at the shoulder roll assumed a narrow/slanted stance to their opponent. There are good reasons for this. To illustrate, take a look at the following picture of Tommy Loughran in his boxing stance:



Notice how little the shoulder would have to move in order to be effective. This is key. From this stance, the shoulder roll is practically the same movement as slipping to the outside of a jab; however there are a couple of differences. First let's take a look at the shoulder roll against an opponent's right hand.

If your left hand is held lower like in the picture, then to your opponent it'll look like a big invitation for right hands. That's good for you because there's a number of ways you can defend against it, as well as following up with a counter. For one you can slip it making it travel on the outside of your shoulder, or you can roll/turn your body as to deflecting their punch to the right of your left shoulder, keeping your chin tucked into your shoulder while shifting your weight on to your right leg. This is a nifty move because your at the same time you're loading up your right hand. Countering now with your right hand is even perfect because you can thow it with all power, and your opponent's momentum from his missed right means he's going to be in a head on collision with your fist. You can even throw a right uppercut off this counter too towards their chin or solar-plexus.

Now if need be, you can also pull back onto your right foot (your right foot is flat and is turned directly to the side), then lifting your left heel off of the ground, turning it towards the same direction as your right foot. This raises your left shoulder while also pulling you away from their right hand. Once you've shifted your weight over your right leg, all that you have to do is on the balls of your feet to the left, shifting the weight onto your left leg as you launch a right handed counter. This works all sorts of right hands.

Here's a good post by Tom:

If you want to shoulder roll you're going to be standing in such a way that will invite right hands. So be ready because you're going to be getting all sorts and types of right hands thrown at you. Mostly they are thrown in desperation from your opponent. He thinks he has a free punch, see? He will try hard to get that right hand to land on you. Inside, outside, looping, straight - everything. But like I said he is just being desperate.

Trust me.

You will notice how desperate he is after you make him miss for a while. Then you will begin to notice how afraid he is to even throw the punch after you begin countering him with the right uppercut after his right hand rolls off of your shoulder.

Dont throw this counter right away. Let him get brave and allow him to think he might just land that right hand if he just tries a little harder. He will sense weakness in you and commit heavily into his right hand and try to hurt you. The counter will surprise him and scare him.

Watch James Toney. They always think they can KO James with a right hand. They're always wrong.

See it for yourself:YouTube - James Toney vs. Michael Nunn pt. 2

It's very effective, and one of the natural or flowing counters in boxing. I learned from Thomas that stance is absolutely necessary in being able to pull this off, and much of this goes against what Scrap talks about when going over posture and biomechanics. Still I feel that the advantages of that stance outweight any negatives.

You'll probably have to learn it on your own, which also may lead to you bucking heads with trainers that have different ideas about how you should stand. The shoulder-roll is a natural move but you'll still have to practice getting the timing down, getting comfortable with it, even while under pressure. Another thing that is good about it is that you don't really need your opponent to cue you in on what he's going to throw, once you realize that he's commited to his right hand, then get ready to roll. If you're already comfortable with looking for punches and countering, then you should be pretty comfortable with this move to begin with. I recommend practicing rolling their right hand inside as well as blocking it on your shoulder, or making it slip to the left of your shoulder. If you need a better idea of seeing how it works, watch guys like James Toney, Mike McCallum, Eddie Futch's fighters or many of the old-timers. Good luck.

[Chris Nagel]

Nunn is a southpaw, but you get to see how a young James Toney, slips punches and uses his shoulder to good effect.

[Trainer Monkey]

Problem is Chris with this photo,notice the rear shoulder is too far back,he's out of balance

[Chris Nagel]

Problem is Chris with this photo,notice the rear shoulder is too far back,he's out of balance

It does seem like he's off balance, huh. His weight is favoring his back foot, and he's also leaning a bit towards the left. In reality his balance isn't hindered at all, he actually comes out of this when he leads. Anyways this makes him very difficult to nail with a right hand. Just seeing someone in this position probably makes most inclined to throw right hand, since it won't work, his opponent would be more apt to reach with the right hand which Tommy would be ready to counter.

[Scrap]

Its a picture He is Posing for the Camara. He looks well, his feet were not that wide when Ive seen Him nor his Hands

[Trainer Monkey]

Problem is Chris with this photo,notice the rear shoulder is too far back,he's out of balance

It does seem like he's off balance, huh. His weight is favoring his back foot, and he's also leaning a bit towards the left. In reality his balance isn't hindered at all, he actually comes out of this when he leads. Anyways this makes him very difficult to nail with a right hand. Just seeing someone in this position probably makes most inclined to throw right hand, since it won't work, his opponent would be more apt to reach with the right hand which Tommy would be ready to counter.

If you get caught in that position,it wouldnt take a hard punch as much as a push to send you ass over teacups

[Scrap]

Not by the position of his Head you wont.

[canary]

this stance and positioning of the hands invite a wide array of attacks from your opponent. an overright hand, looping hooks, and long and swing uppers. you cant possibly defend yourself well using this.

well, when you mean shoulder rolling to close the gap for your attacks (usually uppers and short hooks), this position makes sense. see joe louis and jack dempsey.

[Tito BHB]

Problem is Chris with this photo,notice the rear shoulder is too far back,he's out of balance

It does seem like he's off balance, huh. His weight is favoring his back foot, and he's also leaning a bit towards the left. In reality his balance isn't hindered at all, he actually comes out of this when he leads. Anyways this makes him very difficult to nail with a right hand. Just seeing someone in this position probably makes most inclined to throw right hand, since it won't work, his opponent would be more apt to reach with the right hand which Tommy would be ready to counter.

i always figured.. or at least in any experience fighting off the back foot that you move flat footed on your rear foot.. a habit i have gotten into as in my opinion i suppose it eases my balance..

The shoulder roll is excellent.. not everyone can use it.. but whatever i get working for me then i take that and run with it.. see about the rest as i continue.. instead of getting every inch of the specific style right..
but much like any defensive style just because it is more famous doesnt make it the best.. because when it comes down to it.. its head movement.. and defense.. its like these guys that were good with defensive boxing always boxed like punch, defense, punch again, always defense..
soon as you punch move your head again..

What happens in sparring with me some times if i have slipped in a certain manner etc.. it leaves you in positions with your shoulders more squared off.. so the range for your next shot is much closer.. then usually follow by a jab to create my distance again..

[wesrman]

If your left hand is held lower like in the picture, then to your opponent it'll look like a big invitation for right hands. That's good for you because there's a number of ways you can defend against it, as well as following up with a counter. For one you can slip it making it travel on the outside of your shoulder, or you can roll/turn your body as to deflecting their punch to the right of your left shoulder, keeping your chin tucked into your shoulder while shifting your weight on to your right leg. This is a nifty move because your at the same time you're loading up your right hand. Countering now with your right hand is even perfect because you can thow it with all power, and your opponent's momentum from his missed right means he's going to be in a head on collision with your fist. You can even throw a right uppercut off this counter too towards their chin or solar-plexus.

This paragraph is basically an example of what Floyd does. Isnt it??

[RP33]

If your left hand is held lower like in the picture, then to your opponent it'll look like a big invitation for right hands. That's good for you because there's a number of ways you can defend against it, as well as following up with a counter. For one you can slip it making it travel on the outside of your shoulder, or you can roll/turn your body as to deflecting their punch to the right of your left shoulder, keeping your chin tucked into your shoulder while shifting your weight on to your right leg. This is a nifty move because your at the same time you're loading up your right hand. Countering now with your right hand is even perfect because you can thow it with all power, and your opponent's momentum from his missed right means he's going to be in a head on collision with your fist. You can even throw a right uppercut off this counter too towards their chin or solar-plexus.

This paragraph is basically an example of what Floyd does. Isnt it??

yes.. floyd always turns his left shoulder in, almost turning sideways, and counters with the right.. or a left hook.. or keeps rolling..

anyone who can shoulder roll like toney or floyd is extremely gifted as far as i'm concerned.. i've had a hard time practicing it even.

[wesrman]

Excellent post BTW Chris, as usual.

[Chris Nagel]

this stance and positioning of the hands invite a wide array of attacks from your opponent. an overright hand, looping hooks, and long and swing uppers. you cant possibly defend yourself well using this.

That's the beauty of it. It invites whoever goes up against it to throw everything including the kitchen sink. Although he looks open in everyway open, in reality he's isn't. I know that this is hard to believe being that today's accepted stance is the hands up on the cheeks (or higher), arms bolted tight to the body, body hunched over, chin tucked and standing square to your opponent. Now what this sadly leads to is a perpetual state of blocking when your hands could be used much more proactively, say jabbing, feinting, capitalizing on opportunities as well as creating them. This is harder to do when your arms are commited to blocking, you can see this is a problem with Jeff Lacey and even more recently Joshua Clottey.

The other stance that I mentioned gives so much more options, while allowing a fighter to practically defend punches with impunity, while limiting/affecting the actions and options that your opponent. Thomas Tabin makes a lot of good points about this stance:

There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.

Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:




That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpentier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

I leave it up to you.

well, when you mean shoulder rolling to close the gap for your attacks (usually uppers and short hooks), this position makes sense. see joe louis and jack dempsey.

Normally you don't have to close the gap in order for the shoulder roll to work. To do it effectively you do however have to make your opponent commit to their right hand, it's even better if they have to step in or reach to try to hit you. What Thomas pointed out to me is that the right is a natural counter for a right (likewise how a left hook is also naturally countered by a left hook). As you roll the punch to the inside you're right hand is loaded while you have the added bonus of hitting them while they're coming forward. Anyways with a little adjustment this stance can be used at any range. Now back in the day this stance was how everyone would stand, from Benny Leonard, to Burley, any many of the great old time fighters, and you'll see much of the effective elements being used being used by more recent fighters, Mike McCallum, James Toney, Floyd Mayweather to name a few. You can't use the shoulder roll, or draw a particular counter if you're standing arms in and square.

[quote=Tito BHB;579670]
The shoulder roll is excellent.. not everyone can use it.. but whatever i get working for me then i take that and run with it.. see about the rest as i continue.. instead of getting every inch of the specific style right.. [quote/]
Yeah, not everyone can use it, and there are reasons for this. Ask yourself how come fighters like James Toney, Mayweather, and many Eddie Futch fighters could do the shoulder roll and others coundn't. There's a simple solution, they were taught. Now it was easier in Mayweather's case because he was brought up in it from the get go, James Toney however got knocked on his butt at first, but he persevered and got it down. Back in the day it used to be universal, it was defense 101 taught in boxing gyms and manuals all over. Like other defensive techniques it had to practiced, but by no means was it a magical maneuver only to be used by the few gifted. Although with the stance that is taught in many places today it makes the shoulder roll virtually impossible to pull off.

but much like any defensive style just because it is more famous doesnt make it the best.. because when it comes down to it.. its head movement.. and defense.. its like these guys that were good with defensive boxing always boxed like punch, defense, punch again, always defense..
soon as you punch move your head again..

There'll always be the "it" fighter of each generation that everyone will want to emulate (e.g. Marciano, Ali, Tyson, PBF, etc.). When it comes down to it, don't think on terms of "style", that will cause you to be rigid and closed minded. Instead always do things that works best for you, but don't be afraid to make adjustments and try new things in order to improve as a fighter. Read what Jack Sharkey had to say about this:

"The reason you learn, it isn’t too much from the trainers, it’s from your own eyesight that you notice these fighters, standing around in the gym while you are waiting to go in to box or you are jumping rope or punching the bag, you stop while he’s boxing, you pick up little pointers and these things you try, and this is what, if you go any brains in your head at all, this is what makes fighters improve. And you get so that it’s entirely different and easier than your own style, so this is how a good fighter becomes a great fighter, it’s the fighter himself that can improve and try something."

Truer words were never spoken.

What happens in sparring with me some times if i have slipped in a certain manner etc.. it leaves you in positions with your shoulders more squared off.. so the range for your next shot is much closer.. then usually follow by a jab to create my distance again..

Like Andre says, there's a time for everything and it's good that you recognize the advatages of squaring up your shoulders. What Archie Moore would do and even Shane Mosely at times would be slip to the inside of their opponent's jab, deal with their opponents right arm/hand while hitting with their free hand. Mosely liked getting off combinations on the inside and this was one of the ways he did it.