Is it wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality?

[Gandalf]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

[Gandalf]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

[TitoFan]

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down.

Who me? C'mon man. It's me you're talking to. I would've thought you knew me better by now. The wording was totally innocent, right?

It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

He never got the chance to serve out his term so I guess we'll never know, right? He took on the war-mongering military heads and assumed the one posture that preserved the world as people knew it back then. Never said he was perfect, if you bothered to read the opening post. Listen.... I get it that you Trumpers will stop at nothing to build up your man at the expense of past Presidents, no matter what. But at least try to retain some sort of objectiveness while you're doing it.

Thread diverted as usual.

Beginning to think Fats was right, 9 posts into the thread.

I don’t know your reading it wrong. I’ve said nothing about trump just you putting Kennedy on a pedestal in your opening stanza. You are right though, Kennedy did want troops out of Vietnam although there is some debate about it. Remember that was one of the many conspiracy theories on why he was killed. It’s odd tits, when we have brought up Obama’s policies compared to trump you have often stated the comparing of presidents gets old and I have said it’s how presidents are judged, yet here we are. We got off track because facts you don’t like were brought up about Camelot and crew. Would he have been elected if his father didn’t collude to corrupt the vote in the first place.

Yeah bro. This is me putting JFK on a pedestal.

......I'm fully aware of the guy's faults as POTUS..........

JFK gets rightly criticized for things he did wrong, particularly during the early days of his presidency.



Also, care to reread the entire opening post and telling me again what the thread is about?

Yeah... all Presidencies can be shot holes through when looked at under the microscope.

But let's be real here. It's the mystique and the name that gets many people riled up more than anything else. It's the resentment reserved for those who are perceived to have gotten all the breaks in life and been fed with the silver spoon.

It tends to color everything completely the other way. Suddenly anything positive turns into a negative.

Jackie Kennedy once naively mentioned Camelot in an interview, and suddenly it became ready made cannon fodder for Kennedy haters.



Nothing mentioned here about how he righted the wrongs of the first part of his Presidency and made the decisions that prevented nuclear war back in '62.

No. Fuck... we can't have that. Let's concentrate on his rookie errors, and speculate about just how bad the nation would've been had he not been shot in '63.

[TitoFan]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

[walrus]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

[Gandalf]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

Yes, but I was just pointing out that Tito was wrong to suggest I was wrong, when the history is there is black and white and even color. I have read up a bit on Vietnam and of course watched that fantastic long version of the 10 part documentary series. A very complicated mess of a conflict, but it is factually true that Kennedy massively ramped it all up in the space of 3 years and then ordered a coup which led to more bloodshed. Why support a corrupt man in the first place and considering the result and how it was a civil war, he was not exactly Mr Peace or trying to solve the worlds problems in a decent way. He could be a plonker and mess up like everyone else seems to.

Plus with his personal failings and according to Hersch very odd habit of smuggling in women to the White House, just not a very good man. Plus if his wife was up to the same stuff as rumored it does not fit with my own values.

[Gandalf]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

But are there troops in the country building up year by year with more NK dead and more US troops dead? No.

I am drinking coffee. Clears the mind.

[walrus]

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

[walrus]

And I know we shouldn’t compare presidents but when Obama and trump met Obama told him NK is the biggest thread we are facing and War was a very real possibility. The White House was already figuring how much of Seoul would be lost until we could take out there offensive artillery, which was and is massive. What did trump give up? War games that lead to second best Korea getting bombed a few times? Do you think trump went into this thinking it was a sure thing or just try a different approach for the first time since the truce or cease fire. The tree top wars weren’t that long ago. I think it was a smart move. I say if Kim wants a Burger King we should give it to him. Burger King for bombs, let’s do it. Or would we rather potentially lose miles because we will take NK out but it’ll be a mess

[Fatboxingfan]

Damn, B, you really read up on shit. Avid n shitz. John Adams did weird sexual shit? Damn. Nixon lived just 4 miles from an ex-poster on here. From 1975 until the late 80s. I've heard it was Upper Saddle River, NJ. Burning Hollow development. Nixon opened up China, but I think his biggest mistake was taking us off the gold standard you know the bretton woods deal

[walrus]

Damn, B, you really read up on shit. Avid n shitz. John Adams did weird sexual shit? Damn. Nixon lived just 4 miles from an ex-poster on here. From 1975 until the late 80s. I've heard it was Upper Saddle River, NJ. Burning Hollow development. Nixon opened up China, but I think his biggest mistake was taking us off the gold standard you know the bretton woods deal

True that Nixon finished that but it started before him he just put the final nails in it. To be clear Adams did not do weird sexual shit, he was very devoted to his wife and his contemporaries knew the shit Hancock was spewing was bullshit. I’m just saying Hancock is another deified president and he was a brilliant man just saying he got down and dirty and threw out some nasty attacks and would do anything to ruin a mans reputation to make himself look better and grab power. I can’t give any president a 100% positive rating. Polk is probably the only president who actually fulfilled all of his campaign promises but he did some nasty stuff to do it. Wilson was a straight up racist and segregationist the ever so great Roosevelt locked up American citizens of Japanese decent and now all the sudden Trump is the worst president we have ever had? The bar is low. If you don’t know history or just listen to the msm I can see how people believe that.

[walrus]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...748468%3famp=1

Obama was above reproach as well. Our man trump gets shit for trying to get out of Syria but the anointed Obama, who classified the Bible as hate speech against gays, was weaponizing isis to get Assad for him. Russia’s attack on isis led to the current bullshit we have going on. What a mess that was. Yeah we have had some great presidents the bar has always been so high, so much greatness and now we let it all go to shit with this one guy. This impeachment, much like Johnson’s is a political hack job. I think most people know it, I think the facts are coming out how we see the desperation to get Trump since FISA and there is more to come. No trump is not our greatest president but the climate of hate, literally Hitler, worst ever shit is stupid nonsense. Unless schiff dumps that load of evidence he is sitting on about trump being a Russian double agent super spy.

[Fatboxingfan]

I think Trump is a celebrity and he is who he is, and his wild style/street style/ New York style is just what smug, career politician, globalist fuckface like Trudeau and macron and Merkel need. It's refreshing as hell. Blew away the pompous stuffy academic bullshitters like obama

[TitoFan]

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

Well good on you for digging up all possible dirt on every other President to make your point.

But once again my point for clarity....... and what has always been the point of this thread.

I'm not comparing policy making or decisions made domestically or on foreign affairs.

That would be a never-ending flow of unwinnable shit, because everyone here (and in the whole population) thinks differently about how foreign affairs and domestic matters should be handled.

I'm all about how a President conducts himself in public, both here and abroad.

Hate on Kennedy all you want. Hate on all other Presidents with skeletons in their closet.

Point is..... and will remain.... that never in the history of the U.S. has there ever been a President whose very presence in a monumental embarrassment to many.

Petty, egocentric, and so many other unflattering characteristics to add to the list.

He does not ACT like a President of the United States.

Look... why go through this song and dance for the umpteenth time. You know what I mean, although obviously you're totally entitled to disagree.

He's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Presidents (Caddyshack, anyone?).




Oh.... and that "he's a New Yorker" defense is getting old.

If that's the case, do yourselves a favor and amend the Constitution to eliminate New Yorkers from Presidential contention.

[Gandalf]

As a Christian do you have no objection to him smuggling women into the White House for his 'sex addiction'? I bet Trump doesn't do that.