Kell Brook v Errol Spence Jr - 27/5/17 Sheffield UK

[Beanz]

You are what you feel you are? Ha! So you were born here, grew up here but don't see yourself as British? Lewis is as British and English as a cup of tea or a pint of ale then by both my and your standards. He was born in England, had said many times that he 'feels' British and fought his entire professional career as a Brit.

Why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he "felt" so British?
I was born in this country, correct.
I have dual nationality, own houses in both countries, was called up for the Italian National service, my son has represented Italy in sport, unfortunately I wasn't good enough to, otherwise I would have done.
You seem so upset and insulted that I don't "feel" English, I'm waiting for the next comment about "well if you're so Italian, why don't you fuck off over there?" Because that's what it feels like is coming.
You do make me laugh Beanz, with your little Englander attitude, yet on the off topic forums , you jump down people's throats for perceived ganging up etc. ������������

Lewis has dual nationality so why are you so reluctant to grant him the permission to call himself English? Nobody is denying you your right to feel as Italian as you like but it is pretty widely accepted that being born in a country and then growing up in it is usually what defines ones nationality. It's hardly controversial or me being a little Englander. You can also ascribe any attitude you like to me but why on earth you would think I would tell you to" fuck off over there" is beyond me. I worked in Milan for a while and all over Europe so don't see why I would be so hostile to someone with dual nationality. Does mean you can't claim to be neutral in a debate between Brits and Yanks though. I apologise if you think I am ganging up on you, nothing could be further from the truth.

[Batman]

"Former titlist who struggled against Manny" and his thoughts on the fight

Just to get back on topic here

The only thing that I think Kell left in the ring against GGG was a bit of his eye socket maybe, the corner called it off early enough to stop it becoming a massacre and Brook walked away with more fans than he went in with so I think he probably came out with more than he left in definitely.

The other thing that he talks about is the size, I was fucking amazed when I looked at the stats, I don't know why but I always though Spence was nowhere near the size of Brook, I've watched him a few times and he's never struck me as being massive at WW but obviously I was completely mistaken, maybe its just those massive nipples that people talk about make his body look small

[Primo Carnera]

You are what you feel you are? Ha! So you were born here, grew up here but don't see yourself as British? Lewis is as British and English as a cup of tea or a pint of ale then by both my and your standards. He was born in England, had said many times that he 'feels' British and fought his entire professional career as a Brit.

Why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he "felt" so British?
I was born in this country, correct.
I have dual nationality, own houses in both countries, was called up for the Italian National service, my son has represented Italy in sport, unfortunately I wasn't good enough to, otherwise I would have done.
You seem so upset and insulted that I don't "feel" English, I'm waiting for the next comment about "well if you're so Italian, why don't you fuck off over there?" Because that's what it feels like is coming.
You do make me laugh Beanz, with your little Englander attitude, yet on the off topic forums , you jump down people's throats for perceived ganging up etc. 😂😂

well why don't you fuck off back there is you are so intalian

on the 'why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he 'felt' so British' point, I could be completely wrong but and this is just a guess, but could it have been a case of confidence?
you often hear of footballers playing for countries that they don't actually come from because they feel they will get more games, English players who have a wee bit of Irish in them often have to make the choice of 'shall I stick with England and run the risk of never getting picked or shall I go for Ireland where there is a much higher chance of me getting picked'

for what its worth my dad hates Lennox Lewis purely because he believes that he is Canadian.

Your Dad talks a lot of sense , I think I'd get on well with him. although hate is a bit strong.

[Batman]

You are what you feel you are? Ha! So you were born here, grew up here but don't see yourself as British? Lewis is as British and English as a cup of tea or a pint of ale then by both my and your standards. He was born in England, had said many times that he 'feels' British and fought his entire professional career as a Brit.

Why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he "felt" so British?
I was born in this country, correct.
I have dual nationality, own houses in both countries, was called up for the Italian National service, my son has represented Italy in sport, unfortunately I wasn't good enough to, otherwise I would have done.
You seem so upset and insulted that I don't "feel" English, I'm waiting for the next comment about "well if you're so Italian, why don't you fuck off over there?" Because that's what it feels like is coming.
You do make me laugh Beanz, with your little Englander attitude, yet on the off topic forums , you jump down people's throats for perceived ganging up etc. 😂😂

well why don't you fuck off back there is you are so intalian

on the 'why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he 'felt' so British' point, I could be completely wrong but and this is just a guess, but could it have been a case of confidence?
you often hear of footballers playing for countries that they don't actually come from because they feel they will get more games, English players who have a wee bit of Irish in them often have to make the choice of 'shall I stick with England and run the risk of never getting picked or shall I go for Ireland where there is a much higher chance of me getting picked'

for what its worth my dad hates Lennox Lewis purely because he believes that he is Canadian.

Your Dad talks a lot of sense , I think I'd get on well with him. although hate is a bit strong.

My dad is very much like me, it takes a helluva lot less effort to hate someone than it does to tolerate someone, its a family trait.

Once when he was watching Emmerdale he got really annoyed at some woman on it and he turned to me with a steely look in his eye and he growled at me ''that slut deserves to get raped by a cow''

[Primo Carnera]

You are what you feel you are? Ha! So you were born here, grew up here but don't see yourself as British? Lewis is as British and English as a cup of tea or a pint of ale then by both my and your standards. He was born in England, had said many times that he 'feels' British and fought his entire professional career as a Brit.

Why didn't he try out for the GB Olympics team if he "felt" so British?
I was born in this country, correct.
I have dual nationality, own houses in both countries, was called up for the Italian National service, my son has represented Italy in sport, unfortunately I wasn't good enough to, otherwise I would have done.
You seem so upset and insulted that I don't "feel" English, I'm waiting for the next comment about "well if you're so Italian, why don't you fuck off over there?" Because that's what it feels like is coming.
You do make me laugh Beanz, with your little Englander attitude, yet on the off topic forums , you jump down people's throats for perceived ganging up etc. ������������

Lewis has dual nationality so why are you so reluctant to grant him the permission to call himself English? Nobody is denying you your right to feel as Italian as you like but it is pretty widely accepted that being born in a country and then growing up in it is usually what defines ones nationality. It's hardly controversial or me being a little Englander. You can also ascribe any attitude you like to me but why on earth you would think I would tell you to" fuck off over there" is beyond me. I worked in Milan for a while and all over Europe so don't see why I would be so hostile to someone with dual nationality. Does mean you can't claim to be neutral in a debate between Brits and Yanks though. I apologise if you think I am ganging up on you, nothing could be further from the truth.

Nah mate, don't be daft , no apologies needed, just harmless debating . The only reason I'm reluctant to grant Lewis permission to call himself English is because he represented a different country and even won them a Gold Medal. somewhere along the line , the guy is a fraud, no matter how "Shy" he was.
The only reasons he became a Brit imo were for exposure and Financial gain. I know he would've done ok as a Canadian HW World champ, but not like he has done and certainly not in his early pro career. and that is what would've swayed him. At that time , we've had Him, Rusedski, Zola Budd and others all becoming British for the same reasons.
The ironic thing is that Boxing to me is probably the least nationalistic sport there is . I like Boxers from all around the World and more importantly I don't think I've ever disliked one solely for his nationality.
I know many other people on this forum who have supported Boxers from another country against one from their own country. That doesn't happen in other sports really.

[Beanz]

I don't think coming back to England to pursue his pro career make Lewis a fraud at all. It makes sense for all kinds of reasons. Another thread though in itself


You have to worry a little bit about Brooks stamina after having to cut so much weight and if he avoids getting clumped early by Spence he is going to need that for his concentration. That said I think it is well within him to walk Spence onto something big and finish it early. Will be interesting to see what the odds are on an early KO from either closer to the date.

[Fenster]

@Primo Carnera

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Khan is past his prime, let alone in the same boat as a 48-year-old that was considered past his prime over a decade ago, hasn't had a title shot in over a decade (four recognised alphabets) and hasn't been rated anywhere near the elite of his chosen division in over a decade.

Roy fought a 50-year-old bare knuckle gypo in his last fight, Khan fought a 25-year-old P4P ranked fighter. Chalk and cheese. Apples and oranges.

Right, lets get on to the list as you've finally offered something for me to semi-peruse/look at. Your reasoning is based on current form, so lets take the last two fights of each listed, you can't get more current than that. Happy?

Frampton - lost to Leo Santa Cruz, before that beat Cruz

DeGale - drew with Badou Jack, beat Porky Medina

Brook - lost to Golovkin, beat Bizier

Joshua - beat Molina and Brezeale

Selby - beat Andoni Gago and Eric Hunter

Khan - lost to Canelo, beat Chris Algieri

Of the six fighters two have faced top 10 rated P4P fighters - Brook and Khan.
Of the six fighters four have faced a top three ranked fighter in their respective division - Brook, Khan, Frampton and DeGale.
Of the six fighters four have faced a current/former "world" champion - Brook (1), Khan (2), Frampton (we'll count Cruz as 2) and DeGale (1).
Of the six fighters two have been the clear underdog going into the contest - Brook and Khan

Conclusion - Joshua and Selby's competition is extremely weak in comparison with the other four. They haven't faced an independently top 10 ranked competitor from their own division let alone a "world" champion or recognised P4P elite. However, they're the only fighters that remain unbeaten.

Brook and Khan have faced the single best fighters but both lost. However, both had good success, highlighting their world-class skills until their expected demise, Brook fared better than Khan against a far more dangerous, superior fighter. Frampton has had the toughest back-to-back competition, DeGale never lost to his biggest rival in the division which was bolstered by a win. Khan's win over Algieri is far more noteworthy than Brook's over Bizier, so even though I loathe to rank Khan in front of Kell - as I believe Kell would kill him - the data says I must.

1. Frampton
2. DeGale
3. Khan
4. Brook
5. AJ
6. Selby

Fact.

[Primo Carnera]

@Primo Carnera

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Khan is past his prime, let alone in the same boat as a 48-year-old that was considered past his prime over a decade ago, hasn't had a title shot in over a decade (four recognised alphabets) and hasn't been rated anywhere near the elite of his chosen division in over a decade.

Roy fought a 50-year-old bare knuckle gypo in his last fight, Khan fought a 25-year-old P4P ranked fighter. Chalk and cheese. Apples and oranges.

Right, lets get on to the list as you've finally offered something for me to semi-peruse/look at. Your reasoning is based on current form, so lets take the last two fights of each listed, you can't get more current than that. Happy?

Frampton - lost to Leo Santa Cruz, before that beat Cruz

DeGale - drew with Badou Jack, beat Porky Medina

Brook - lost to Golovkin, beat Bizier

Joshua - beat Molina and Brezeale

Selby - beat Andoni Gago and Eric Hunter

Khan - lost to Canelo, beat Chris Algieri

Of the six fighters two have faced top 10 rated P4P fighters - Brook and Khan.
Of the six fighters four have faced a top three ranked fighter in their respective division - Brook, Khan, Frampton and DeGale.
Of the six fighters four have faced a current/former "world" champion - Brook (1), Khan (2), Frampton (we'll count Cruz as 2) and DeGale (1).
Of the six fighters two have been the clear underdog going into the contest - Brook and Khan

Conclusion - Joshua and Selby's competition is extremely weak in comparison with the other four. They haven't faced an independently top 10 ranked competitor from their own division let alone a "world" champion or recognised P4P elite. However, they're the only fighters that remain unbeaten.

Brook and Khan have faced the single best fighters but both lost. However, both had good success, highlighting their world-class skills until their expected demise, Brook fared better than Khan against a far more dangerous, superior fighter. Frampton has had the toughest back-to-back competition, DeGale never lost to his biggest rival in the division which was bolstered by a win. Khan's win over Algieri is far more noteworthy than Brook's over Bizier, so even though I loathe to rank Khan in front of Kell - as I believe Kell would kill him - the data says I must.

1. Frampton
2. DeGale
3. Khan
4. Brook
5. AJ
6. Selby

Fact.

I'm not going to keep on, but what is it about "Lies, Damn Lies and statistics?" You can make stats work however you want to , but the fact remains that not only is Khan not in the top end of his division (whatever that is), he has no desire to try to prove he is. He's been mandatory for Garcia's old belt forever and never wanted it , he had the chance of a title fight with Brook and never wanted it. He fought Canelo in a Circus fight for money KNOWING he would lose, but it would still leave him with paydays to pursue. He's chased, Floyd, Manny and even MacGregor for fucks sake for the exact same reasons. A loss would still leave him another payday AND he'd still have another payday.
He's in no rush either.its been nearly a year since Canelo and absolutely no sign of who he's fighting next apart from Manny comedy show with the fake sheikh money!
These are not the actions of someone in his prime, these are the actions of someone who is looking to cash out, and surely somebody who knows as much about Boxing as you can see that, because nearly everybody else can. FACT!

[Primo Carnera]

I want to get away from this Lewis thing, but what I meant by Fraud was either in the Brits or Canadians eyes, because he can't be both. Put yourself in their shoes for a second and what would you think?

Anyway back to Brook v Spence, which is what the thread was originally about.
I hear exactly what you're saying, but something keeps coming back to me , and that is that we all know that Kell hasn't been the most disciplined in his earlier days and struggled at the weight, but it was he who INSISTED On this fight when his trainer and promoter are advising him to go up a weight.
He clearly values being a World champion and wants to keep it. He knows his body and if he's done it right, he's had plenty of time since the GGG Fight to get back down.
We heard all about this weight business before the Porter fight, but he did it no problem and never lost any strength. And one thing we do know is if he was a bit weak, Porter would've exposed that, because he's a little beast.
Also , I don't believe this fight was the biggest money fight for him. I reckon with the financial clout behind him , they could've maybe got a Cotto fight for him at LMW if he stepped up.
I keep coming back to Brook must seriously believe in himself and I just think he's gonna have enough.
I could easily be wrong because Spence is a wonderful fighter and could possibly be the best out of the lot!
One thing I will not accept having said everything above, is IF Brook loses, I don't want to hear anything about the weight. He's made the choice and has to go with it.
I reckon he'll win though!😄

[Fenster]

I couldn't care less about who or when Khan fights, his motives or whether somebody likes him or not. That has nothing to do with the question I was addressing. Whether people agree with me or not is entirely up to them, I've made my point.

On another note - Rusedski and Zola Bud chose to become British citizens as adults, they weren't born here. Lennox was taken to Canada, after being born and raised in London, through no choice of his own. Just recently Lewis was pissed off that James DeGale got all the plaudits for being the first Brit to become Olympic/pro world champion, arguing that he never stopped being a Brit even though he represented Canada.

[Alpha]

@Fenster don't you think P4P should be current? Khan hasn't won a fight in almost 2 years. He is 0-1 in that time. I'm not denying his past statistics but just want to get your opinion on that. Overall yes Khan has excellent stats when matched against other current British fighters; but his recent form does not reflect that.

[Primo Carnera]

Fucking hell! Now Lewis wants to be classed as the first BRIT to win a boxing Olympic gold?
I've heard it all now. Anybody would think the cunt was about 10 years old when he won it. He was a fucking Adult with choices ffs.
We're never gonna agree on this bollocks, so I'm just gonna leave it there!

[Fenster]

@Fenster don't you think P4P should be current? Khan hasn't won a fight in almost 2 years. He is 0-1 in that time. I'm not denying his past statistics but just want to get your opinion on that. Overall yes Khan has excellent stats when matched against other current British fighters; but his recent form does not reflect that.

Yes, his inactivity isn't lost on me, the other fighters have had at least four fights in the time Khan's had two (AJ, eight), however, he's not retired and fully intends to fight again soon.

Lets not forget P4P is complete and utter nonsense, it's a bit of fun for boxing nerds like us lot, it means nothing (well in this modern era Floyd and all that TBE bollocks has put a whole new "importance" on P4P in the eyes of younger fans), there's no right or wrong.

Personally I prefer to rate the talent of the fighter not just analyse their records. It's silly to imagine all the fighters the same size but just as silly to say one mans form is better than an others per division. The strength in depth of every division is not only different but constantly changing. A top heavyweight could be an average Flyweight depending on the quality and vice versa.

[Primo Carnera]

Finally! Something I agree with you on. I've always said p4p is a load of meaningless bollocks! 😉

[smashup]

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