Sugar Ray Robinson.

[mrbig1]

Why is SRR called the great Middleweight of all time when he won and lost the title 5 times? He didn't even rule his era. Now if you want to call him the greatest P4P of all time then fine but not as MW.

[SlimTrae]

Probably depends on who is making the statement.



Ring rates him #1...then for some reason they then state-even though his prime was at WW.
https://www.ringtv.com/516348-rankin...ght-champions/
However from an oldschool perspective: The late Nate Fleisher of Ring Magazine rated Ketchell the best middle weight of all time.

ESPN rates SRR #1 -but that is GOAT not as a MW alone- as they state: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson

Welterweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1940-65 Record: 175-19-6-2 (109 KOs)

http://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/gr...ge=greatest110



https://www.talksports24x7.com/2019/...0to%20overcome.

This list states Hagler is#1.




https://www.boxingscene.com/top-25-m...top-ten--24472
Ranks him #2 MW.
They state: Robinson stands out as the greatest Welterweight of all time and could well be argued as number one here.



Why He’s Here: However, a certain degree of inconsistency must also be taken to account. Robinson was virtually unbeatable at Welterweight and against Welterweights; it wasn’t the case at Middleweight,


Then they respond to the this thread's question:While he had to lose it four times, the fact that Robinson could win the title five times is awesome stuff and spoke to the incredible will to win he had.


They ranked Greb #1.


I place him #1 WW #1 P4P. Never really thought to rank him #1 at MW. This thread made me remember there are those who do!

[Master]

Boxing fans are rightfully indoctrinated to believe that the original Sugar Ray is the best p4p boxer of all time. There are very few full fights that you can see of him but as Denilson posted recently his record speaks for itself.

Nobody could beat him at welterweight and it took an exceptional big middleweight to beat him.

Sugar Ray was obviously beatable at middleweight. However I think his middleweight career cements his greatness because he came back against losses that showed his heart, punch power, courage and chin.

Sugar Ray Robinson was the complete package. He was also a diva and retired a number of times going into showbusiness. I think he would have tried to maximise his money the way Floyd has but with more class.

[SlimTrae]

Probably a top 10 bad day in my life was when I lost a video camera at the IBHOF - i WAS front seat!!! Manny Steward blessed us with some old stories.


At times he kind of pissed some off, I understood, because he was shattering myths that day!

When he got to Ray Robinson he began talking about how his handlers & then eventually himself stopped picking fighters based on their rankings and rather their reach- they saw a chink in his armour. It wasn't speed, timing nor power, rather as he moved up-- fighters with jabs- Emanuel stated was what they began to steer clear from.

To play to Master's point if he were fighting today...I think he would have done the same as Floyd did @ Welter when Paul Williams challenged him- RETIRE!!

When I have the time - I think I will watch what MW fights we have of him & see how he dealt with jabs.


And he also stated that it was true- Ray Robinson at best would just smile when the name Charley Burley was mentioned. Manny Said in all of his days as a youngster, he never heard Robinson mention the name Charley Burley.

[Master]

Monzon always believed he would have beaten Robinson. He said Sugar Ray was vulnerable to the right hand which was Carlos best weapon. I think he was right.

[mrbig1]

Robinson lost his title to fighters Monzon or Hagler would have KOed. SRR was a great MW just not the greatest. I would have him 7th on my MW list.

[smashup]

Among other things, this stat below is a good enough reason to be able to call him one of the very best ever.

Robinson won his first 40 professional fights before losing to Jake Lamotta on Feb 5th 1942, Robinson then went unbeaten in his next 91 fights

Think he won about 89 Amateur fights in a row before this too with 109 pro KO's

Shame there's limited footage of him but if you listen or read up on people from that era (Burt Sugar etc) they all say the same thing, that he really was that good

[Master]

Another myth is Archie Moore being considered greatest light heavyweight when Ezzard Charles beat him numerous times.

[mrbig1]

Another myth is Archie Moore being considered greatest light heavyweight when Ezzard Charles beat him numerous times.

Great point my brother.

[SlimTrae]

Another myth is Archie Moore being considered greatest light heavyweight when Ezzard Charles beat him numerous times.

Great point my brother.

That is how I feel when I hear about Manny Pacquaio being called the greatest. Not for beating everyone. Not for unifying, but for setting a record. 8 divisions. But I digress, my bad on point now:

I see Moore in a different context. I try to see them all in reel-time -in our era.
1. We all know Dude turned 36 to fight for the LHW title vs. the dude that survived SRR aka Joey Maxim.
2. The next year, Moore won 9 times.
3. I don't know how good Nino Valdez was- but he beat him the next year who was ranked #1 HW contender...I think we would be like DAYUM!!!
To how he got the HW shot- boxed beautifully then got careless and pasted by the Rock then Floyd P.
4. Reigned from 1951-1961. I see this as us watching a LHW fight very often from 2011-2021 & retains title going from memory let me check brb......!

....my bad 1952-1962 per wiki!

Just as we watched father time fuck with manny P last week...only this is Archie Moore vs Yvone Durrelle, We know the dude is? Yup same as Pac 42! Difference is Durelle is smacking the dogshit out this dude 1st round...and the announcers say it this way
"Is this the night father time swings the tide!"

We're all front row, Mr. Big, Master, Me...crowd going crazay!!See it here!



Yvonne continues to batter him from pillar to post. Drops him again! Announcer yells no mandatory 8 count & 3 seconds later BAM! Damn! Down again!?
He survives...then starts landing that left hook over n over till he's dropped AGAIN! Staggers up, starts countering! Then we see this old dude realizing str8 rights aint gonna do it- so he's doubling, trippling the jab then the right! Damn He drops the younger foe!

Next 2 rounds we watch a 42 yr old go toe to toe! Not one side no moore! (pun intended!)
After 9 rounds, we are now watching an old dude just kick this cat's ass...all over the ring! Drop, Drop, over BY KO! Announcer tells Archie You might be the LHW at age 90.

Stripped by org, but defends his lineal...Yeah that is the baddest mofo at LHW.
If records make an ATG..oldest to win LHW, then 10 yr reign & the only champ to box in the era of Joe Louis, Marciano & Ali whew!!

As for Charles- he str8 had his number- I take into account this dude best years were at HW. He was just getting warmed up @ LHW-IMO!

Just as with Moore he whooped Jersey Joe W., Joey Maxim & Jimmy bivins & Charley Burley!! over n over n over again!! Burley had just whooped Moore & a HW by about 50lb advantage. Ring magazine I got said Burley beat that HW like an abused dog, but I digress

Losing consistently to that kind of fighter ahem!! future HW champ IMO doesn't place Moore's status as the LHW GOAT into question. Not even close.

Mongoose ATG & The GOAT at LHW no one did it better (defend LHW title) as skillful, consistent at that age for that long!
VIVA ARCHIE MOORE!!!!

[SlimTrae]

@mrbig1 @Master

Since this is an SRR thread & he & Moore fought Maxmim @LHW who ya got at this class SRR vs Moore?!?!


@Spicoli @TitoFan @Kirkland Laing @mikeeod @Beanz @smashup

[Master]

Archie Moore obviously beats Robinson at light heavyweight.

That Yvone Durrelle fight is amazing!

[mrbig1]

Archie Moore obviously beats Robinson at light heavyweight.

That Yvone Durrelle fight is amazing!

Agree. plus Moore was a big light heavy who fought HWs.

[Kirkland Laing]

It's not a fair fight is it. An all time great thirty pounds heavier than another all time great. I don't see the point in asking the question.

[SlimTrae]

It's not a fair fight is it. An all time great thirty pounds heavier than another all time great. I don't see the point in asking the question.

They both fought at LHW, SO I take it you've never posted on a P4P fight thread of fighters from 2 different eras or passing weight class. if you cant get the point. No problem. I apologize, I won't add your name to such boxing questions.