What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

[ruthless rocco]

Except most of those guys didn't have exceptionally well rounded skills. Some of them could barlely box and some were fundamentally flawed. So I'm sceptical whether that is even true.

Joe Louis did have well rounded skills, power and athleticism.

I will concede to you that if you take Joe Louis, make him taller and more heavily built through nutrition, give him pad work and modern interval training and the same recovery cycles etc than modern athletes enjoy and the steroids to allow him a higher volume of training without breaking down then maybe you are right. I can swallow this.

But if you take a guy like Marciano and scale him up I don't buy it. He would be Lamon Brewster. He'd come forward, be tenacious, hit really hard and take a lot of punches. But he'd be slower and still not especially skilled and he would be beat mate. But THAT's now just my opinion

You're wrong. He'd be a bigger, stronger, tougher Rocky Marciano that would DESTROY any current heavyweight in his path.

[powerpuncher]

the main problem with your argument is that it is all based on what you think and has no factual evidence. you think that frazier doesnt hit harder than wlad. im not saying that you are wrong but im saying that its just an opinion that has really no weight to it. you are also forgetting that HWs wore smaller gloves back at that time too. whether or not people hit harder now, smaller gloves would probably make up the difference.

remember that williamson knocked down wlad on a counter right and he only weighed 218 pounds for the fight. ali weighed 216 for the foreman fight. williamson was 6'4 and ali was 6'3. so they were essentially the same size. and you should know that williamson should have beaten wlad on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage but wlad got a gift. williamson isnt known to have a great chin (he got KO'd in 1 round by mesi) and ali is known to be able to take punishment. also, ali is definitely faster than williamson and has a better jab and footwork. if williamson was able to outbox wlad, ali definitely would be able to.

The main problem with your counter argument is that the same reason you have tried to use against me is the reason why you are wrong. My argument is backed up by 3 different forms of evidence...

Visual evidence... Modern fighters, look better than older ones and they look like they fight better and hit harder than their older counterparts.

Anecdotal evidence... The premise that everything improves in some way over time, it's beyond all doubt that athletes are getting fitter, faster and stronger and craft is being refined as time goes by, it cannot be otherwise.

And most importantly STATISTICAL evididence... Wladimir and his opponents have higher readings in the tale of the tape, better records against opponents who are bigger and with better records and their KO ratio's against their opponents are in general much higher than Ali and his opponents.

And all this is being even MORE generous to the old timers because their division was a combination of both Cruiserweight and Heavyweight today and modern Heavies are not ALLOWED to pad their records against such opponents. Once we view their records against modern criteria we see that Frazier only won 13 fights against real HW's and Ali only 28 times! Only HALF their opponents were even HW's and the further we go back in time the worse it gets!

If you want to say they were called HW's then so it counts then you also have to include all the cruiser fights of all the former cruisers that have stepped up to HW today like Adamek and Haye today and you can see then how Frazier and even Ali would probably not be any match for David Haye!

So when different forms of evidence converge on the same thing you can be pretty sure it's true, that's what bookies do when they make odds and that's why I have a good idea when to and when not to bet on a fight and usually pick them good when I do. And could fights be staged today between fighters past and present I can tell ya not many from the 70s would have great odds on them to win my friend!

And well done, you mention a fight Wladimir won KO2 as "evidence" that he would lose to one of the most punch weak champs of all time. I think Ali might perform better, he might survive to round 4 LOL! Seriously I could just as easily state that Ali was KD by 185lb! Cooper or beaten by 197lb Spinks who Waldimir wouldn't be allowed to fight and would knock out with 1 punch if he did so there's no way by this logic that Muhammad could beat Wladimir, same goes!

I respect the old timers but their time is history!

i dont think that you really made any argument other than the eye test. you are just under the assumption that modern training exceeds old training so boxers from today are just better than before. its just an ignorant assumption. and again, i cant take you seriously if you watch old great fighters and actually think that they look less than great. i think that its just your bias that makes them look worse.

also, im not sure what you are referring to when you said "And well done, you mention a fight Wladimir won KO2 as "evidence" that he would lose to one of the most punch weak champs of all time." the only fight i mentioned was the williamson fight and it went to a technical decision.

again, your arguments have no substance. they are only what you perceive and there really arent really many facts after all of these pages that you have written.

[Max Power]

Sorry I must have mistaken who you were talking about, I thought you were referring to Parnell fight, my apologies. It's hard to remember all of your points being swamped with so much BS.

Seriously though you have made claim here that you can't take me seriously when I say that these past warriors don't look so great on film... Ok... Do me a favour.

What is your opinion of FOTC? Do you think this is masterful boxing? Before Wlad vs Povetkin this was the most clinchy fight of all time (initiated by Ali of course). The approximate summary the entire way through is that Muhammad's footwork and speed had slowed down just enoughfrom his wiry 60's days to reveal the hard truth about him... His reflexes sucked! He got hit by the slowest punches and was apparently blind to the left hook. Diminutive dwarf Joe Frazier marched forward continually with a 1 dimensional attack based around his left hook which over the course of 15 rounds, Ali was unable to work out and unable to evade. Both fighters were leaning on each other and the ropes and Muhammad was exercising his disgusting head push technique and trash talking, both apparently completely out of breath.

Frazier should have KO'd Ali in that fight and would have were he not a complete powder puff puncher with a 44% KO ratio over real HW's! Muhammad was apparently born 30 years too early to learn how to keep an opponent like that off him.

Punch bag's at their finest! And I wouldn't be surprised if I could withstand some of those punches!

Frazier vs Ali
Foreman vs Ali
Foreman vs Frazier
Foreman vs Roman (the most pathetic thing I have EVER seen)
Ali vs Evangelista

I could go on. Have you watched these fights lately? Watch them closely, without your own bias interfering and then watch say, Bowe/Holyfield, or Lewis/Klitschko, or Klitschko/Haye and then tell me honestly you don't see the difference!

[Max Power]

Anyway I'm a fan of Foreman, I think Foreman would enjoy a lot of success today because he is heavy and tall, aggressive, he hits hard and he can take a lot of punches. That's a formula for success in ANY era.

Muhammad not so much. His style is not well suited to the modern HW division. I think he would be competitive and win against a lot of modern HW's.

I think he could be champion of the Cruiser division.

I think he would be a B-level boxer at HW.

I think he would be used as a sparring partner for top HW's for them to condition themselves against small fast boxers and runners (like Haye) without the actual danger of facing a puncher like Haye himself.

[powerpuncher]

do you not realize that ali threw way more punches than HWs today? back then, they had way better stamina. they actually trained. maybe half of these HWs today would be crusiers if they actually put in effort to get into shape. like i said before, to you, it doesnt matter about weight. it only matters on what you perceive. you have stated many times that haye would beat guys like ali and louis because they would be the same size and with the developments in training he is obviously better.

you are acting like frazier hit like chris byrd. i guarantee that some of these cruisers today would still hurt wlad if they hit him with flush shots. its just ridiculous that you think that ali didnt have a good chin when all signs pointed that he did.

the question is that at what point would you not believe your opinion anymore? could anybody say or do anything to make you disbelieve your point? for example, if past and present boxers who had faced either wlad or ali said that ali would win, would you still believe your opinion or would you then realize you were wrong? im asking because i want to see how pointless it is arguing with you.

[erics44]

if Ali was around today fighting using the same training techniques and diet and that sort of thing they used yesteryear then he probably wouldnt be anywhere near the force he was

if he had the benefits of todays diet / training techniques then who knows he might be the hw champ again

he might also be a couple of inchest taller and have more muscle and hit harder, but you can only compare using the competition of their time

thing is, i truely believe that ali would be the HW champ nowadays because he definately has the skills to be somewhere near the very top and his personality would always generate lots and lots of money

klit is only still champ because he generates lots and lots of money, they wont let him lose to the point of cheating hurrendously in every fight

ali would generate lots of money and because of that he would have a massive helping hand along the way (perhaps not to the level of help that the klit gets tho)

[Max Power]

They both ended up being stinkers of champions Eric lol.

I think you'll find that the stamina of todays boxers is far better in terms of their VO2max and it can be directly measured. Because of not only the size but the explosive training done these days that was not in the past though they tend to fight in bursts of high energy punches rather than sustained tippy tap type shots. Were a current fighter to throw shots like Ali they'd no doubt sustain it much longer. But he would get walked through imo.

Ibeabuchi and Tua were modern boxers and they broke the record for punches thrown in a HW fight. And they weighed 240lbs, Ike was pure muscle and Tua was muscle and fat. Neither looked anywhere near as puffed as Frazier and Ali.

We can agree to disagree power puncher it's ok, I respect your opinion and it's fine for you to have it I'm obviously not changing your mind either, I just want to point out that it is you guys who make the outrageous claim that fighters from 50 years ago would take it to todays guys and then try to say that I don't have evidence. The burden of proof should be on you.

[erics44]

They both ended up being stinkers of champions Eric lol.

I think you'll find that the stamina of todays boxers is far better in terms of their VO2max and it can be directly measured. Because of not only the size but the explosive training done these days that was not in the past though they tend to fight in bursts of high energy punches rather than sustained tippy tap type shots. Were a current fighter to throw shots like Ali they'd no doubt sustain it much longer. But he would get walked through imo.

Ibeabuchi and Tua were modern boxers and they broke the record for punches thrown in a HW fight. And they weighed 240lbs, Ike was pure muscle and Tua was muscle and fat. Neither looked anywhere near as puffed as Frazier and Ali.

We can agree to disagree power puncher it's ok, I respect your opinion and it's fine for you to have it I'm obviously not changing your mind either, I just want to point out that it is you guys who make the outrageous claim that fighters from 50 years ago would take it to todays guys and then try to say that I don't have evidence. The burden of proof should be on you.

i completely agree that if you picked ali out of the 70s or 60s or whatever when he was in tip top condition and put him in with a fighter of today who utilizes the advanced training methods and diets then ali would struggle

if ali had those benefits it would be a different story

yes the ali of that period would be one of todays cruiserweights but people are getting bigger so he would probably still have grown into a HW of todays standards

and i wasnt around during alis time to fully appreciate his reign and whether it was as good as it is remembered or not

[powerpuncher]

the biggest problem i have with the argument is that its such a huge myth that techniques now are better than they used to be. boxing is a finesse sport. you cant just think you are the biggest, baddest person in the room and then beat everyone at boxing. it doesnt work that way. joe louis proved that size doesnt matter by beating multiple people way bigger than him. i guess that i understand what strength is and isnt. read about jim jeffries in the late 1800s and eatly 1900s. he would work as a boiler maker all day then train after that. his daily routine would have definitely been too hard to handle for these fat and lazy HWs today. even stories of his strength are amazing. there have always been strong people in the world. modern techniques dont change that fact.

did you know that shorter arms can give more leverage on a punch? that is why guys like marciano, frazier, and tyson could hit so hard. punching power is a technique that has been around forever. there isnt any greater advancement on that than there has been for decades. i just dont understand why these fighters now would hit so much harder than the fighters in the past. there is absolutely no evidence to prove it.

holyfield came up from cruiserweight and could KO some of his opponents and could take their punches. yet, all of the fighters older than the 90's that were the size of holyfield couldnt do the same? it just doesnt make any sense. holyfield could not have been that much more advanced than a larry holmes. i mean, what is the difference between spinks beating holmes and holyfield beating all the HWs he beat? for holyfield, you would say that he was just good. for spinks, you say that it was because holmes was a bum compared to fighters now and lost to a cruiserweight.

i would be willing to change my mind if there was hard evidence. for example, if you could compare punching power or speed or strength. i just dont think that its possible though. and without that hard evidence, i cant believe that fighters today are just all around better.

[smashup]

Maxpower your theories are bullshit ....

On July 4, 1919, Dempsey and World Heavyweight Champion Jess Willard met at Toledo, Ohio, for the world title. Some knowledgeable observers such as Benny Leonard predicted a victory for Dempsey against the vastly larger champion; many called the fight a modern David and Goliath. In the event Willard was knocked down seven times—all in the first round—although it should be remembered that rules at the time permitted standing almost over a knocked-down opponent and hitting him again as soon as both knees had left the canvas. Willard's corner would not let him answer the bell for the fourth round. He was widely reported to have suffered a broken jaw, broken ribs, several broken teeth and a number of deep fractures to his facial bones.


Dempsey was a TINY Heavyweight (14 stone mark) and used to smash bigger fighters to pieces with ease.

[Max Power]

Well with your example of Holyfield that is easy to see. Holyfield was in fact the very first to incorporate a "modern training regime". His methods were considered radical, yet now they are common place. What's more when you look at Spinks, he was incredibly weak chin wise (Tyson KO1), as soon as he faced a puncher who could land on him properly unlike Conney he was finished. Except Holyfield has a thick solid heads and slabs of muscle. That's the difference, his chin is sound.

David Haye is an example of how modern training has enabled him to carry his power from CW up to HW!

As far as Holyfields power goes he was somewhat punch weak at HW and really wasn't a complete power puncher even at CW. His KOratio against HW's is something around 30 odd% which is telling and most of his KO's came in later rounds too.

Yeah shorter arms I believe can deliver more power "in closer" than a taller guy trying to throw shorter shots, it's the torque they can better generate, particularly in hooks and uppercuts. But the taller guys produce better power out long, especially with their straight shots. Since the outside game has become more important in modern boxing there is the reason why we are seeing more basketball sized boxers now.

Taking your Joe Louis analogy, that is a bit silly. Joe Louis was bigger than anything better and better than anything bigger. You see for a start, like Ali, Louis outweighed most of his opponents, over 80%! The ones who were larger like Buddy Baer, Ade Simon and Primo Carnera were absolute oafs! The Nicolay Valuevs of the 30's HW division except far smaller. Back in Louis's day there were no superheavyweights with the correct balance or skills. Today the big guys and the technicians are the same people! It is not easy to develop the balance and dexterity for boxing when you are 6'5"+ and 240lbs+, it requires maniacal training.

You keep calling modern opponents fat. Ali was fat, Holmes was fat, Foreman got fat, Frazier was chubby even in his "prime". Who is fat today? or recently at top level? Chris Arreola? He's getting fit again now. Sam Peter? Sure but when he fought Klit he was chiselled like a bodybuilder. Hell they even called Lennox Lewis fat when he came in 5lbs heavier than usual for his fight against Vitali! There is a massive exaggeration of the fat levels today which are frankly no worse than yesterday.

All pro boxers must train hard and long, otherwise they would get their head punched in.

[Master]

You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think fighters train harder now than in the past. The talent today is poor, they may have the size but they do not have the skill, heart and quality. of the champions in the past.

[Max Power]

Mate we can see the modern guys training on YouTube for Christ sake! It's you who live in a fantasy land.

Oh right so all other sportsmen and athletes train harder than ever but pro boxers can't be bothered training anymore and just eat cheeseburgers instead. Do you really believe what you are saying? That's one of the things you have been brainwashed to say by the old time nutbags with a vested interest in rubbishing the present and glorifying the past.

Today they really are "professional boxers". In the past they sometimes worked a days work and then hit the gym. Today, their job, from the time they get up to the time they go to bed it to train and prepare to fight. They have camps that completely systematise their training, sleep and diet to maximize their performance. If you think a bit of sparring after work, a few dozen rounds on the heavy bag, a skip and a jog and a dozen sets of push ups and situps are better than that you are crazy!

Yesterdays athletes were professional boxers in the sense that they received payment for their fights and at top level they may not have worked (depending on how far back you go). But they were not "professional athletes" as we would describe them today.

Look at a football player from 1970, skinny, a bit of a pot belly, maybe even smoking a cigarette at half time instead of eating an orange. It's the same analogy with boxing. It's a joke!

There's no comparison between the skills of today and those of yesterday. Wladimir and Floyd show dominance the world has never seen before, like Lewis and Oscar before them.

And the best is yet to come I'm sure of it!

[ruthless rocco]

Smoke some more crack with your buddy Rob Ford @Max Power

P4P the old fighters would wipe the floor with the fat assed steroid using new ones!

[Max Power]

You keep going on about P4P. What are you saying? Are you implying that Ray Robinson could solve the Mayweather puzzle or something? Please don't get me started there! That is a complete proof of how much better today's champs are. Mayweather would make Robinson look "completely" stupid! And everybody knows it!

So much for your P4P argument!