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Thread: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Yeah but wars Max wheres the wars?
    Theres no more wars.
    Ironically, if you want to see "wars" you have to look to the more UNSKILLED boxers.

    Skilled boxers=technical fight

    Unskilled boxers=war

    My favourite "war" was Bowe vs Holyfield trilogy.

    Because Holyfield was too small to nullify Bowe and liked to abandon skills to slug it out often anyway.

    And Bowe did not have the level of skill necessary to utilise his height and keep Holyfield at the end of his jab. Bowe- often credited with his infighting double threat ability, should be equally discredited with having to resort to it.

    What ensues is a slug fest. Enabled of course because they both possessed very solid chins of course.
    Unskilled boxers=war

    I'd reword that if it was me, It does occur, but it isnt a monopolizing factor.

    Balls and the decision to not be controlled also equals war.

    I wouldnt call Tua and Ibeabuchi unskilled or Morrales or Barrera,or Ali or most of his warring partners through the years either for that matter.

    Maybe the easy knock outs on the way for these men you can call unskilled but that is also comparative.
    Tua was very unskilled, he was a basic tanker with a hard chin and hard punch and that is about it as far as skills go.

    Ali was a fundamentally very unskilled boxer, lacking in basic fight reflexes and technical ability. He made up for it with great stamina always, height and speed when he was younger and later on, chin and experience.

    Ali's warring partner Frazier was about as skilless as can be like Tua (without the chin or the punch though).

    Ibeabuchi had fundamental skills but nothing more and nothing "controlling", he boxed a bit and slugged too and often found himself inside. He could not control Byrd or Tua properly.

    Morales and Barera, I grant you are well rounded fighters. They fight in limit weight division where it is necessary for success to be well rounded. Also they fight in rather light divisions where the punches are more bareable, thus enabling them to participate in that sort of fight to a much greater degree than a HW.

    Hypothetically Andre, if we take one of our modern technically great fighters like Klitschko or Haye and we gave them first rate chins (assuming they are glass jawed now like many claim), how much punishment or hard punches do you really think they could take?

    I mean Arreola was a very tough guy, extremely hard chinned but one really cracker punch from Stiverne and he was done the moment that first one landed really.

    The power of the modern HW division I believe is now so great that even the hardest of chins will be cracked by the hardest of punches.

    And even if they had a titanium chin that could withstand any slug fest with the hardest hitters, why the hell would they want to? When they can soundly outbox their opponents?

    Nobody WANTS to get punched in the face as far as I am aware! The brawlers that enter into this stuff do it because it's the only way they CAN do it at the time.

    I am certain that top level professional boxers did not routinely abandon their skills to slug it out merely for the entertainment of the spectators. That doesn't ring true.

    I think it was an acceptable risk in previous HW eras (the Ali era, the Louis era), because the punches were much weaker. You get the feeling when watching these fights that an ordinary man could withstand a lot of those shots.

    Not so today, you can almost feel some of todays shots and most HW's know they cannot be taking those kinds of shots in their time.

    The days of taking a hundred shots to land ten of your own are over I am afraid, and it's only going to get worse.. OR better, depending on how you look at it.

    I like action too. But I also appreciate real skills as well.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Deontay Wilder is a case in point...

    He has relatively very poor skills.

    He has no stamina or chin to speak of.

    But he has such a hard punch, such range and such good delivery (atleast against his mismatched opponents to date) that it doesn't matter! Very few far more skilled boxers with relatively better chin and great stamina could withstand the one trick pony.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Yeah but wars Max wheres the wars?
    Theres no more wars.
    Ironically, if you want to see "wars" you have to look to the more UNSKILLED boxers.

    Skilled boxers=technical fight

    Unskilled boxers=war

    My favourite "war" was Bowe vs Holyfield trilogy.

    Because Holyfield was too small to nullify Bowe and liked to abandon skills to slug it out often anyway.

    And Bowe did not have the level of skill necessary to utilise his height and keep Holyfield at the end of his jab. Bowe- often credited with his infighting double threat ability, should be equally discredited with having to resort to it.

    What ensues is a slug fest. Enabled of course because they both possessed very solid chins of course.
    Unskilled boxers=war

    I'd reword that if it was me, It does occur, but it isnt a monopolizing factor.

    Balls and the decision to not be controlled also equals war.

    I wouldnt call Tua and Ibeabuchi unskilled or Morrales or Barrera,or Ali or most of his warring partners through the years either for that matter.

    Maybe the easy knock outs on the way for these men you can call unskilled but that is also comparative.
    Tua was very unskilled, he was a basic tanker with a hard chin and hard punch and that is about it as far as skills go.

    Ali was a fundamentally very unskilled boxer, lacking in basic fight reflexes and technical ability. He made up for it with great stamina always, height and speed when he was younger and later on, chin and experience.

    Ali's warring partner Frazier was about as skilless as can be like Tua (without the chin or the punch though).

    Ibeabuchi had fundamental skills but nothing more and nothing "controlling", he boxed a bit and slugged too and often found himself inside. He could not control Byrd or Tua properly.

    Morales and Barera, I grant you are well rounded fighters. They fight in limit weight division where it is necessary for success to be well rounded. Also they fight in rather light divisions where the punches are more bareable, thus enabling them to participate in that sort of fight to a much greater degree than a HW.

    Hypothetically Andre, if we take one of our modern technically great fighters like Klitschko or Haye and we gave them first rate chins (assuming they are glass jawed now like many claim), how much punishment or hard punches do you really think they could take?

    I mean Arreola was a very tough guy, extremely hard chinned but one really cracker punch from Stiverne and he was done the moment that first one landed really.

    The power of the modern HW division I believe is now so great that even the hardest of chins will be cracked by the hardest of punches.

    And even if they had a titanium chin that could withstand any slug fest with the hardest hitters, why the hell would they want to? When they can soundly outbox their opponents?

    Nobody WANTS to get punched in the face as far as I am aware! The brawlers that enter into this stuff do it because it's the only way they CAN do it at the time.

    I am certain that top level professional boxers did not routinely abandon their skills to slug it out merely for the entertainment of the spectators. That doesn't ring true.

    I think it was an acceptable risk in previous HW eras (the Ali era, the Louis era), because the punches were much weaker. You get the feeling when watching these fights that an ordinary man could withstand a lot of those shots.

    Not so today, you can almost feel some of todays shots and most HW's know they cannot be taking those kinds of shots in their time.

    The days of taking a hundred shots to land ten of your own are over I am afraid, and it's only going to get worse.. OR better, depending on how you look at it.

    I like action too. But I also appreciate real skills as well.

    Then by all the above the you must of loved Spen Okkte

    Keep it, its not for me,neither is generalizing and snowballing whole eras into piles.

    This latest one bores me. Skilled yeah sure so was Spen a total master at a few things to be exact.
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    But I cant understand it for you.

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Yeah but wars Max wheres the wars?
    Theres no more wars.
    Ironically, if you want to see "wars" you have to look to the more UNSKILLED boxers.

    Skilled boxers=technical fight

    Unskilled boxers=war

    My favourite "war" was Bowe vs Holyfield trilogy.

    Because Holyfield was too small to nullify Bowe and liked to abandon skills to slug it out often anyway.

    And Bowe did not have the level of skill necessary to utilise his height and keep Holyfield at the end of his jab. Bowe- often credited with his infighting double threat ability, should be equally discredited with having to resort to it.

    What ensues is a slug fest. Enabled of course because they both possessed very solid chins of course.
    Unskilled boxers=war

    I'd reword that if it was me, It does occur, but it isnt a monopolizing factor.

    Balls and the decision to not be controlled also equals war.

    I wouldnt call Tua and Ibeabuchi unskilled or Morrales or Barrera,or Ali or most of his warring partners through the years either for that matter.

    Maybe the easy knock outs on the way for these men you can call unskilled but that is also comparative.
    Tua was very unskilled, he was a basic tanker with a hard chin and hard punch and that is about it as far as skills go.

    Ali was a fundamentally very unskilled boxer, lacking in basic fight reflexes and technical ability. He made up for it with great stamina always, height and speed when he was younger and later on, chin and experience.

    Ali's warring partner Frazier was about as skilless as can be like Tua (without the chin or the punch though).

    Ibeabuchi had fundamental skills but nothing more and nothing "controlling", he boxed a bit and slugged too and often found himself inside. He could not control Byrd or Tua properly.

    Morales and Barera, I grant you are well rounded fighters. They fight in limit weight division where it is necessary for success to be well rounded. Also they fight in rather light divisions where the punches are more bareable, thus enabling them to participate in that sort of fight to a much greater degree than a HW.

    Hypothetically Andre, if we take one of our modern technically great fighters like Klitschko or Haye and we gave them first rate chins (assuming they are glass jawed now like many claim), how much punishment or hard punches do you really think they could take?

    I mean Arreola was a very tough guy, extremely hard chinned but one really cracker punch from Stiverne and he was done the moment that first one landed really.

    The power of the modern HW division I believe is now so great that even the hardest of chins will be cracked by the hardest of punches.

    And even if they had a titanium chin that could withstand any slug fest with the hardest hitters, why the hell would they want to? When they can soundly outbox their opponents?

    Nobody WANTS to get punched in the face as far as I am aware! The brawlers that enter into this stuff do it because it's the only way they CAN do it at the time.

    I am certain that top level professional boxers did not routinely abandon their skills to slug it out merely for the entertainment of the spectators. That doesn't ring true.

    I think it was an acceptable risk in previous HW eras (the Ali era, the Louis era), because the punches were much weaker. You get the feeling when watching these fights that an ordinary man could withstand a lot of those shots.

    Not so today, you can almost feel some of todays shots and most HW's know they cannot be taking those kinds of shots in their time.

    The days of taking a hundred shots to land ten of your own are over I am afraid, and it's only going to get worse.. OR better, depending on how you look at it.

    I like action too. But I also appreciate real skills as well.

    Then by all the above the you must of loved Spen Okkte

    Keep it, its not for me,neither is generalizing and snowballing whole eras into piles.

    This latest one bores me. Skilled yeah sure so was Spen a total master at a few things to be exact.
    Hehe, very funny!

    I will be honest, Wladimir personally is not the most exciting. Many of the other HW's still are though.

    I think the 90's era HW's was possibly the most watchable era. And Tyson in the 80's.

    Although I understand what you mean about battles before that time, I have seen more than enough of them, they just don't do it for me like the 90's and a few more recent battles do either as far as even wars go.

    I think there needs to be a bit of both for watchability. I want to see big stong guys that can knock you senseless with a punch and high tension, forced skill level because of it, AND some back and forth action as well.

    For this particular combination, I personally prefer the 90's over all other eras.

    But then again, I am obviously not nostalgic about eras I had no connection to, and I am only 33 (34 in MArch) so I never actually lived it.

    That might qualify me as somewhat era biased.

    I just don't feel the tension in an Ali fight, nobody ever really looks like they're in any danger of getting seriously hurt ever in any of those fights to be honest. Similarly with previous eras.
    "Enough with the games mate! Your messing with the Grand Master!"

    Lennox Lewis

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Both Klitschkos fight tall, but in different ways. Wlad is much more mobile and fluid, while Vitali is more aggressive and durable. There is a saying that no plan in combat survives first contact. The same is true for fighting the Klitschko brothers.

    Vitali and Wlad are both technicians in the ring, and both hit very hard. I'm sure everyone that has ever set foot in the ring with them has come in with a plan to exploit the vulnerabilities you see, only to abandon that plan once their power and trip hammer jab was felt. It takes a unique/rare mentality to feel that kind of physical strength and power and ignore or overcome the survival instinct to force the type of fight necessary to overcome technically and physically superior fighters like the Klitschko brothers. You may not like their styles but you have to give them their due for their dominance of the division.

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust View Post
    THEY STOOD THERE, GUARD BARELY UP, ...... I know what Im talking about! They only stood there. They didn't try to bull their way in, like Rocky Marciano would do. They didn't try to get low, all the way down, and come up from underneath. I am a heavy hitter for my weight. I know I am talking about. I would get underneath, and punch upwards, I have a heavy hand, my hands are heavy. I could break their ribs, or split into their spleen, while they are flailing their octopus arms all over the place, looking so stupid and amateurish. I would show them good.
    This is just stupid. If you do this against Wlad you get hugged and leaned on. Many fighters have tried this. It doesnt work. Marciano wouldnt get KOd early agaisnt Wlad. Its like asking Maidana to fight Kovalev. Hes getting KTFO, no matter how tough he is.

  7. #22
    El Kabong Guest

    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Same reason fighters froze vs Tyson, same reason fighters backed away from Holyfield, same reason fighters tried to hide vs Joe Louis and George Foreman.

    #1 The bright lights of a title fight can fuck with a fighter's head
    #2 Self fulfilling prophecy - Wlad LOOKS unbeatable, his opponents are eager to start believing that after the first big jab lands.
    #3 The more you do something the easier it is to keep doing. Keep your head still in round 1, it's easier to do the same in round 2

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    @Silkeyjoe dont you understand @Max Power i will get underneath {{Underneath! Underneath!! Archie Moore was calling to Foreman in Kingaston, jamaica, January 1973}} Fighters who cant get undeneath are just NO GOOD.

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeeod View Post
    Both Klitschkos fight tall, but in different ways. Wlad is much more mobile and fluid, while Vitali is more aggressive and durable. There is a saying that no plan in combat survives first contact. The same is true for fighting the Klitschko brothers.

    Vitali and Wlad are both technicians in the ring, and both hit very hard. I'm sure everyone that has ever set foot in the ring with them has come in with a plan to exploit the vulnerabilities you see, only to abandon that plan once their power and trip hammer jab was felt. It takes a unique/rare mentality to feel that kind of physical strength and power and ignore or overcome the survival instinct to force the type of fight necessary to overcome technically and physically superior fighters like the Klitschko brothers. You may not like their styles but you have to give them their due for their dominance of the division.
    For sure.
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    But I cant understand it for you.

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Simple because they are all shit and devoid of any god given talent, skill, courage and desire.

    Secondly Wlad ties the fuck out of them if they get anywhere near him and tires them out.

    Thirdly Wlad control’s the negotiations, fees, referees and judges.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

  11. #26
    El Kabong Guest

    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Master View Post
    Simple because they are all shit and devoid of any god given talent, skill, courage and desire.

    Secondly Wlad ties the fuck out of them if they get anywhere near him and tires them out.

    Thirdly Wlad control’s the negotiations, fees, referees and judges.


    Holy Jesus....ok ROSS

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    The only thing you can REALLY say about Klitschko's style is that it is based around his range.

    He only outweighs about 50% of his opposition and his average opponent weight is a little smaller than himself at nearly 240lbs now (just shy). Weight which is ALWAYS an advantage even when the boxer with it is bummy.

    But he out-talls most of his opponents, which is only a major advantage in itself (out-talling) when the boxer is skilled and knows how to effectively utilise height and range (as Klitschko obviously does better than anyone else).

    However if you want to slam Klitschko for this, you also have to slam..

    Geroge Foreman (who out-talled AND outweighed nearly every opponent faced)
    Muhammad Ali (who out-talled nearly every opponent AND outweighed 70% of them!)
    Lennox Lewis (who out-talled and out-weighed nearly every single opponent faced!)

    As you can see, signature favourites of yours are no better in this regard but in fact had bigger advantages over the competition!

    If you take Wladimir's height away, he would not be nearly as effective. IF you take Muhammad's height away, and paint him white, he is Jerry Quarry!
    Out -Talled
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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust View Post
    THEY STOOD THERE, GUARD BARELY UP, ...... I know what Im talking about! They only stood there. They didn't try to bull their way in, like Rocky Marciano would do. They didn't try to get low, all the way down, and come up from underneath. I am a heavy hitter for my weight. I know I am talking about. I would get underneath, and punch upwards, I have a heavy hand, my hands are heavy. I could break their ribs, or split into their spleen, while they are flailing their octopus arms all over the place, looking so stupid and amateurish. I would show them good.
    Would you say maybe that you were a................................................




    monster ? for your weight ?
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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    every era had a giant.
    every era had a bully.

    this is the first era where David just had no balls to think about slayng goliath.

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    Default Re: Fighters who just stand there and let the Klits tee-off

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeanz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    The only thing you can REALLY say about Klitschko's style is that it is based around his range.

    He only outweighs about 50% of his opposition and his average opponent weight is a little smaller than himself at nearly 240lbs now (just shy). Weight which is ALWAYS an advantage even when the boxer with it is bummy.

    But he out-talls most of his opponents, which is only a major advantage in itself (out-talling) when the boxer is skilled and knows how to effectively utilise height and range (as Klitschko obviously does better than anyone else).

    However if you want to slam Klitschko for this, you also have to slam..

    Geroge Foreman (who out-talled AND outweighed nearly every opponent faced)
    Muhammad Ali (who out-talled nearly every opponent AND outweighed 70% of them!)
    Lennox Lewis (who out-talled and out-weighed nearly every single opponent faced!)

    As you can see, signature favourites of yours are no better in this regard but in fact had bigger advantages over the competition!

    If you take Wladimir's height away, he would not be nearly as effective. IF you take Muhammad's height away, and paint him white, he is Jerry Quarry!
    Out -Talled
    It is a technical term and not made up at all. Honest.
    Do not let success go to your head and do not let failure get to your heart.

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