Logically why the universe cannot be infinite in size.

[Kev]

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very fucking big but not infinite.


Thankyou.

[Master]

Bilbo I am beginning to realise that as well as being offensive you can be very clever at times. (Not just a one trick pony after all).

[Munkymagic]

Mate don't even start with this sh*t. This type of stuff is a total mindfuck.

[Gandalf]

Its just another Bilbo argument. Bilbo, you have no way of knowing how large the universe is so your suggestion is faulty.

[Kev]

Its just another Bilbo argument. Bilbo, you have no way of knowing how large the universe is so your suggestion is faulty.

I realise I have no way of knowing how big it is but logically it cannot be infinite can it?

If it started from a single point, and both science and religion agree that it did then how can it be infinite?

If you start at 1 and begin counting you will NEVER get to infinity will you. Why is this any different? You start from an atom (actually smaller) sized but rapidly expanding universe, it's always getting bigger.

If it's getting bigger it CANNOT be infinite.

Simple logic my Korean friend.

[Kel]

We will never know lads

[BoxingGorilla]

Well, they say that it will expanded to the point that is rips the earth to shreds. That's what I heard somewhere on one of the "smart" t.v. channels. Doesn't help prove or disprove anything, just something to think about when you lie in bed at night.

I think it is infinite. If it isn't then what happens when you get to the edge? Do you just pop onto the other side like in the Astroids arcade game? Do you bump into the wall of God's garden when you reach the end?

There is no gravity in outer space so what would keep it from expanding forever? All that blackness is just various gases right? I have no idea really.

I say that since there is no gravity a "big bang" would create enough force to keep things moving forever and a day. No gravity to slow it down so keeps moving. At this point it is moving so slow that it would be like watching paint dry if you were sitting on the outskirts of all that is, but still, I believe it's infinite.

[Preme]

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very F****** big but not infinite.


Thankyou.

how can something come from nothing?

What is "nothing"?

Also the universe is expanding, but into what?

[BoxingGorilla]

Also the universe is expanding, but into what? Preme

Good question. Scary, huh?

The universe is that "what" so as it expands the center gets thinner until...

[Kel]

I have thought about this since I was a kid. I used to think the universe was square for some reason.

Lately I reckon we are all a much larger version of molecules, like a gas. Gas molecules are round and float around. Maybe we play the same kind of part in a much larger place. The mind boggles I just don't know, now I wrote that down it looks stupid

[Punisher136]

Alright my personal belief is that a 3d plane cannot be infinte because it has 3 defined dimensions. The 3d plane is the only one actually capable of being completely defined in size so the idea of it also being infinite doesn't sit well with me. Leading scientists will tell you that space has 10,11, or 26 dimensions but my argument against that is that you can make 3d models of everyone of their models (including the 26d one). If you can make a 3d model of something, I hate to break it to you but it is 3 dimensional. Stephen Hawking's idea of the graviton is the biggest pile of crap i've ever seen. Gravity is a result of mass, all mass not just specialized particles.

On to the big bang theory, It is completely impossible to begin with. If all the mass in the universe was in one spot to begin with, expansion would be completely impossible whether there was an explosion or not. Movement is only possible between 2 peices of mass. We can float around in space ships out in space because there's other bodies of mass out there making a very big curve for space. If all the mass was in one place, the cuve would be so sharp that you would not be able to expand outwards regardless of the power you were packing in that explosion. (some self promoting pat on the back bs) The distance between galaxies suggests that my theory of each galaxy being formed individually, instead of all coming from the same spot.

Imagine if you were the only thing in space: You would not be able to move (you wouldn't be able to survive but this helps understanding from the physics view). If there was a ball in your hand it would stay on your hand because movement outward away from your body is impossible because of inertia and the lack of space. That doesn't really make sense but once you have a single particle of mass in an unmeasureable void (this thing isn't big or small, it just IS because there's nothing to measure in it), the rules of that void completely change.

[TyBuff]

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

[Punisher136]

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

Here's the thing with numbers, their only purpose is to help us understand the world around us. Let's say 100 was the biggest number we'd need to use to measure anything. We could add 1 to that to make number 101 but that number would have no use other than being a number. The same thing goes for the really small numbers. After so many places right to the decimal, there's no value in that number. Like .00000000000000000000000001 may have a purpose somewhere in our field but several places down the line its value in the real world realistically becomes 0 as nothing that small currently exists or is measureable.

[Punisher136]

Well, they say that it will expanded to the point that is rips the earth to shreds. That's what I heard somewhere on one of the "smart" t.v. channels. Doesn't help prove or disprove anything, just something to think about when you lie in bed at night.

I think it is infinite. If it isn't then what happens when you get to the edge? Do you just pop onto the other side like in the Astroids arcade game? Do you bump into the wall of God's garden when you reach the end?

There is no gravity in outer space so what would keep it from expanding forever? All that blackness is just various gases right? I have no idea really.

I say that since there is no gravity a "big bang" would create enough force to keep things moving forever and a day. No gravity to slow it down so keeps moving. At this point it is moving so slow that it would be like watching paint dry if you were sitting on the outskirts of all that is, but still, I believe it's infinite.

The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction.

[BoxingGorilla]

The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction. Pun

I see.


Really, I guess it doesn't make a difference. We are not capable of getting anywhere close to the edge of the universe and reporting back to anyone so it is infinite as far as humans are concerned.

If Pi is infinite then I'd bet that the universe is as well. What good is an infinite number in a finite universe?