What would happen if Klitschko called out Ali's opponents?

[Max Power]

I don't believe Fury, Haye, Chisora, Arreola, Stiverne, Poverkin, Pulev, are the all time greats max believes them to be

Define "greatness". I don't think these guys are "all time greats" at all, atleast not yet. But that would not prevent them from KOing someone who is an ATG!

As for their abilities, try watching their fights against other opponents not named Klitschko (the ones that fought them anyway).

Looking at David Haye just for example- his chin is not the most solid, that much is conceded. He is not the biggest HW, that is obvious (yet he is exactly the size of Ali who was considered THEN abig HW).

Many people are bagging David Haye on his performance against Klitschko which amounted really to not taking enough chances against an opponent who could have knocked him out and as a result his work rate being nowhere near enough to win. Yet Haye's fights with other boxers reveal he is an enormously skilled and highly slick fighter of vast potential who would pose problems for any HW, even the top ones, of the 70's or before. You cannot watch the performance and fail to recognise this.

Sometimes when old fighters are criticised you guys like to bring up that the skill differences are "subtle" and not readily seen by laymen like myself who watch boxing in the dark. Well I can say the same about the way you view a boxer like Chris Arreola whom I know is more skilled than given credit for.. It's the "little things" he does that may go unnoticed that make the difference.

I think modern boxing is being viewed by rose coloured glasses sometimes.

[bradlee180]

Kind of implying Bradlee, that size did in fact matter even for Dempsey... But I do not wish to focus on size as an argument for anything as guys here to jump on that p4p thing immediately and nullify that argument.

No. Dempsey was very much an average-sized Heavyweight in his era.

... but at his core he looks nothing like a modern boxer

The modern Heavyweight core is fat, flabby bellies (Wladimir excluded).

From the pic you provided you can see instantly that Dempsey has strong arms and shoulders but at his core he looks nothing like a modern boxer and you can tell that training regimes were way different back then.
Dempsey was one of those fighters who was not a "professional" athlete as we view them today. He worked a hard days work before hitting the gym.

Nonsense.
Fighters today do the same workout as fighters did in the 19-teens, 100 years ago.
In Dempsey's era, Boxing had already been around for a few centuries under different rule sets, but the workouts had already evolved and solidified into the modern boxing workout over a century ago. In the 1880s and earlier, there were Boxing gyms in every major city where fighters and other men and boys looking to learn self-defense would go to train.
Even the order of the exercises is the same:

Boxing Workout
Early morning: Roadwork.
First a stretch, then a run anywhere from 3 to 10 miles mixing in some shadowboxing and sprints.

Afternoon: Gym Workout.
Stretch and warm-up
Shadow Boxing
Sparring
Heavy bag
Speed bag and/or double-end bag
Focus Mitts
Jump rope
Stomach exercises - sit-ups, leg raises, medicine ball.
Calisthenics - pushups, neck bridges, chins, grip work, dips, wall pulleys(thera stretchy bands today), throwing medicine ball, old timers chopped wood whereas nowadays they use a sledgehammer on a tire.

Each part done by rds.
Massage at end.

Maybe some handball in the evening.



^ Very good clip here of some of the Greatest Heavyweight Champs in History.
First half focuses on the very similar training they undertook.

.



Where are the advances and changes that some of you young $#!t-snaps are talking about?

Weights? Not many boxers lift weights.
Lighter weight fighters don't want to add any mass or they'll be over their weight class.
If Heavies add too much mass, it'll impede their endurance.
Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Schmeling, Johnson, they all were naturally over 200 lbs, but they trained themselves so fine and lean because they needed the speed and the endurance for 15 rds or more.

Two significant differences I see is that boxers nowadays don't include wrestling in their training anymore the way boxers did up until the mid 1940s. And of course, chemicals nowadays. Hell, chemicals are even in the food we eat nowadays. A century ago, food was much more wholesome and healthy without poisonous pesticides, hormones, steroids, and vaccines in the animals, and genetically-modified plant-matter.

Shouldn't there be critical advances by now? Shouldn't there be a better way after over a century of "evolution" in gloved boxing?
After all, it's happened in all the other sports.
Is this timewarp good or bad?

The Boxing Workout remains unquestionably the same after 100 years; there is no difference in the training regime.

[Max Power]

Honestly Bradlee I appreciate your reply, you have listed exercises some of which are still staples for a boxer, a few of which are no longer and/or were not in common place then.

But overall I'm afraid I virtually disagree with all else.

There has certainly been improvements or "changes" if you'd prefer to call them that in a modern boxers regime for one.

-Olden days boxers done much distance work where as it has been shown today that intervals provide the correct fitness for the sport and distance work has little relevance (i.e. the early morning jog may remain or may not be used at all and is simply now a warm up. Previously it was the principle cardio developer).

-The focus mitt was not extensively used as today and certainly not in as elaborate a fashion. Today it represents the next most important thing and something a boxer can do far more of than sparring and fighting to develop their skills and in some aspects it is a superior method for developing their skills as they can perfect technique and accuracy under relaxed conditions.

-The double end bag is the next most important tool and can be used even more often but the speed ball has been proven virtually useless for the preparation of a boxer and its regular practice translates to no actual aspect of boxing. As soon as you learn to time it, it becomes shoulder endurance. When you see a modern boxer doing this on media day it is for show.

-Plyometrics and weight training have contrary to your opinion been incorporated into the preparation of every boxer today, not just heavies. You can see their preparation on You Tube which are now filmed extensively, there can be no argument.

-Training is periodised today as in all major sports usually flowing from a strength and power oriented phase to a speed and skills and conditioning one producing a superior final product for battle over the hit and miss training of yore.

-Shadow boxing whilst good for balance and training to miss and handspeed and imaginary situations has been curbed in intensity and now regarded more of a warm up as rapid shadow boxing can strain shoulder blade/upper spine muscles and hyper extend the elbows

-Diets have improved greatly, a boxer applies the modern advancements not available in olden days to their diets and eats what they need to eat in order to maximise their performance. Protein shakes and supplements have nourished athletes much better today. Former days boxers like Dempsey existed on very poor diets sometimes.

-Sports medicine and recovery methods have improved dramatically, there's no question enabling atletes to train harder for longer, more frequently and with better injury management/prevention.

I could go on forever.

On Dempsey and his friends you think they trained so hard they got down so fine? BS. Dempsey looks soft at the core. The main thing I notice when I see a picture of a previous HW like Dempsey or Louis is that their bodies are not as hard as modern fighters.

To the point that modern HW's are fat at the core, there are SOME fighters like this as there were in every other era. In previous eras even the CHAMPS were fat. Today the champs are lean and 6 packed and SOME of their oppoennts are chubby. For every chubby HW you point out to me I can show you one who looks like a ripped body builder with more muscle and less body fat than Dempsey or any fighter of his era! Another important point is that even if a fighter is fat today it is a result normally that calories are in excess of usage, but their training is still maximised and doesn't affect their stamina (unless grossly obese in which case I agree they have not trained) and underneath their core strength is far higher than Dempey's who was not built in this department.

You made one point about Dempsey I cannot dispute. He was an average sized HW of his day... And he stopped a few bigger... very average opponents without controversy. His entire career was smoke and mirrors and nobody of that era would have any relevance whatsoever in professional boxing today.

[bradlee180]

What next are ya gonna try to tell me? Something about the mayweather family's tremendous knowledge of modern food science and nutrition?! C'mon, it's Kool-aid and Mcdonalds for lil Floyd, baby!

[Max Power]

Floyd Mayweather is a flamboyant personality that does his part for the media. When you see Mayweather cruising around looking for a burger joint prior to his fight with Canelo for example- this is his way of making a statement for the public and a psychological game for Canelo that you have to remain starved and weak for another 2 days to make weight whilst I can relax, eat whatever I want and come fight night it wont make any difference, I'm still going to kick your ass!

What you have to realise is that behind the scenes of what you see on the cameras, Mayweather is a very dedicated fighter who trains very hard around the clock, not fooling around what you are shown on TV, and his team would have a dietician hired to cater to his requirements whether he is moving up or down to maximize his energy like every other top level boxer today. His dad and uncle would not be in charge of something like that. And I think his dietician is introduced in a Mayweather documentary. A pretty lady by no small coincidence lol. I don't think that diet consists of Kool-Aid and McDonalds very often!

[La Cucaracha]

WladKlit is a bitch with a chin of china who needs big bro to fight his battles

[Max Power]

Didn't Wladdy beat up Rahman for Vitali who he apparently sent into retirement hiding for a few years before the big bad Rock was no longer a threat to him? Score settled, the brothers are even

If you swallow that sort of nonsense at all! Neither Klitschko or Lennox Lewis have ever ducked anybody in reality.

Again, who exactly has wasted Klitschko in a chin related manner?

1 opponent... Corrie Sanders- a 6'4" 225lb very fast aggressive southpaw power puncher.

Additionally who caught Wlad with a big shot while his head was sandwiched between Sander's own head and his fist (watch in slow). Where additionally Wlad got up several times.

This is not SO bad!

[La Cucaracha]

WladKlit got dropped by nobodies he is a sorry excuse for a boxer he even shows clips off great champs at his fights so people in attendance know what greatness is.

[powerpuncher]

Kind of implying Bradlee, that size did in fact matter even for Dempsey... But I do not wish to focus on size as an argument for anything as guys here to jump on that p4p thing immediately and nullify that argument. From the pic you provided you can see instantly that Dempsey has strong arms and shoulders but at his core he looks nothing like a modern boxer and you can tell that training regimes were way different back then.

Dempsey was one of those fighters who was not a "professional" athlete as we view them today. He worked a hard days work before hitting the gym.

im surprised that since you admitted to being a personal trainer (or something to that effect) in the other thread, that you would even make an argument like that. its one of those ignorant arguments that people make where the more chizzeled somebody is, the better they are. ken norton would do very well now then.

anyways, nowadays we train a lot to make bodies look more chizzeled even though it doesnt really matter. i can name great athletes that dont have that look at all but still excelled. the looks dont matter. its only the practicality of the training that matters. so you basing anything off of looks unless its blatantly obvious that they are way overweight, is a bad argument.

[powerpuncher]

@ bradlee dont try to tell max power that the training was mainly the same back then as now because he wont believe it. oops, too late. haha.

the thing that people wont admit is that every person in the world is different. some learn better in some ways than others and some metabolize some foods better than some. i know about all of these things that say that if you eat this or that and train exactly this way then its like magic and you will be great. although i agree to an extent, i also believe a lot of it is a placebo effect. i guarantee that if you switched the training regimes from now to back then, fighters wouldnt be much different.

[La Cucaracha]

Just imagine the old time fighters with a 6-8 week training camp

[ruthless rocco]

just imagine if max power got hugged as a child...

[La Cucaracha]

just imagine if max power got hugged as a child...

Just imagine









































Max Power

[Max Power]

im surprised that since you admitted to being a personal trainer (or something to that effect) in the other thread, that you would even make an argument like that. its one of those ignorant arguments that people make where the more chizzeled somebody is, the better they are. ken norton would do very well now then.

anyways, nowadays we train a lot to make bodies look more chizzeled even though it doesnt really matter. i can name great athletes that dont have that look at all but still excelled. the looks dont matter. its only the practicality of the training that matters. so you basing anything off of looks unless its blatantly obvious that they are way overweight, is a bad argument.

@powerpuncher

Now I don't care about the rest of the blather above but you just hold it right there! I want you to have me on record here right now that I do not place much credit on what you look like at all in regards to boxing, especially HW boxing!

In fact and you can quote me.. At HW there is no reason why having a little bit of fat is detrimental to your performance. In fact although fat is added weight with no strength benefit to carry around, muscle weight also slows one down. An equivalent amount of muscle weight on the arms might even slow you down more than the equal amount of weight on the tummy because of the way it's distributed. And more muscles mean faster metabolism which at peak performance may actually make a boxer gas faster than even his equal weight but more chubby opponent! Now I'm not implying that being a fat ass is desirable for boxing either but within reason at HW it is not such a bad thing, nor is it a sign of undertraining (unless you are James Toney or something akin).

The ONLY reason I made the former statement is because Bradley tried to say that Dempsey and his peers trained so hard they fined their way down so low and were more lean than modern fighters, which on average is just not true at all. In fact it is one of the differences immediately apparent by looking at the different eras.

Don't try to turn this around and make it look like I promoted this train of thought!

As for modern training methods being same as olden days ones... Do I really need to answer that any further. Everybody must know that this is just complete rubbish!

What if the old timers had steroids, what if they had training camps, what if they had modern diet and nutrition, what if they were bigger... They are just that, what ifs! I've never been concerned with these questions. Were they taller, heavier, more athletic, better trained, had better diets etc they would BE modern fighters they would not BE who they actually were.

[Max Power]

I have to laugh at Dempsey in that video above. His portion of the training revealed nothing modern whatsoever and did not exactly look like the thrashing machine to me.

Another amusing part is Foreman hitting the Heavybag- Sadler apparently told him to go for a run and punch the bag because his power was all he needed. First class training regime if I ever seen one! LOL