What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

[Master]

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

I agree and Beanflicker and Max Power are blind to it.

[Beanflicker]

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

Gene Tunney didn't even fight the black fighters of his time, and we're going to assume he'd fight a genetic freak like RJJ?

Yeah Tunney looked good, but the fact is he fought in an era where black fighters weren't given shots. Tunney never fought ONE black fighter, and according to some sources refused to even spar with black fighters.

What, am I supposed to believe there were no mean black dudes back then??

[Max Power]

Max what are you talking about?

Tunney 191lb v Kovolev 175lb and you think Kov wins!

You are a contradiction.

You say these old heavyweights are too small for the heavyweights today yet James Toney, Roy Jones and Chris Byrd can beat them.

Make up your mind.

Kovalev undergoes an artificial starvtion and dehydration to come in under his limit. On fight night they are exactly the same size. Except Kovalev is exceptionally better conditioned and skilled and far more powerful and athletic.

The correct statement should be.. "AS IF Gene Tunney could survive more than a round or 2 with Kovalev!"

Since when has size been my only argument? Overall QUALITY has always been my argument. I happen to factor in size to my analysis because it IS such an important aspect demonstrated by common sense and statistical evidence.

[Max Power]

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

@Master seemed to agree with your analysis here but let me bring you the news my friend...

- These ancient boxers mentioned ARE largely excluded from fighting HW boxers today as they were because they don't make the limit. They have absolutely NOTHING in common with any HW today, other than the fact that at one stage in history, they were once CALLED Heavyweights. The definition of what it means to be a HW has changed several times since then. Today they would be regarded as "light HW's", not even CW's!

They are EXACTLY comparable with the likes of Sergei Kovalev when considering cross eras. And of course Sergei is a better boxer and better puncher than any of the ancient fighters you mentioned.

- RJJ did not knock out Ruiz for the HW title at all! Moreover, none of the fighters you mentioned are anywhere NEAR comparable in quality to RJJ either!

- You make a statement regarding Tunney being competitive in the modern era and THEN go on to list just not so ancient boxers as potential opponents anyway. However analysing that list, I still don't think Tunney has any real chance of beating them. Not even Floyd Patterson! The best he could hope for is to survive.

- Michael Moorer would have banged Tunney oout with a single punch and is skillwise far removed from Tunney. Axel Schultz? LOL The guy who beat 260lb Foreman? Your crazy! LOL

- The Klitschko era is possibly the strongest era ever in HW boxing. Evidence wise it is the strongest. There's no real debate about that, just US propaganda to the contrary but most people know that any ancient fighter like Tunney or Dempsey would never step foot in a ring with Klitschko or any of their opponents and were they to, they'd be immediately rendered unconscious.

Your post was not worth a single drop of piss in the dessert!

Something positive about Tunney?

He beat what was then the reigning champion of the world. That's it!

He won it against a crude light HW slugger with no appreciable skills, whom achieved his own success via padding his record and avoiding all dangerous opponents. He never faced a black fighter, and he never faced a decent abilitied 200+ HW boxer. They were all bums!

Tunney himself, ALSO ducked coloured fighters.

Imagine if that occurred today?

Tunney has his place in history. The moment you try to compare him to more recent times, it's a joke.

Sergie Kovalev and Roy Jones Jr. would have been the HW champions of the world for as long as they liked and been so dominant nobody would even want to be a boxer with them around. That is a fact!

[SlimTrae]

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

@Master seemed to agree with your analysis here but let me bring you the news my friend...

- These ancient boxers mentioned ARE largely excluded from fighting HW boxers today as they were because they don't make the limit. They have absolutely NOTHING in common with any HW today, other than the fact that at one stage in history, they were once CALLED Heavyweights. The definition of what it means to be a HW has changed several times since then. Today they would be regarded as "light HW's", not even CW's!

They are EXACTLY comparable with the likes of Sergei Kovalev when considering cross eras. And of course Sergei is a better boxer and better puncher than any of the ancient fighters you mentioned.

- RJJ did not knock out Ruiz for the HW title at all! Moreover, none of the fighters you mentioned are anywhere NEAR comparable in quality to RJJ either!

- You make a statement regarding Tunney being competitive in the modern era and THEN go on to list just not so ancient boxers as potential opponents anyway. However analysing that list, I still don't think Tunney has any real chance of beating them. Not even Floyd Patterson! The best he could hope for is to survive.

- Michael Moorer would have banged Tunney oout with a single punch and is skillwise far removed from Tunney. Axel Schultz? LOL The guy who beat 260lb Foreman? Your crazy! LOL

- The Klitschko era is possibly the strongest era ever in HW boxing. Evidence wise it is the strongest. There's no real debate about that, just US propaganda to the contrary but most people know that any ancient fighter like Tunney or Dempsey would never step foot in a ring with Klitschko or any of their opponents and were they to, they'd be immediately rendered unconscious.

Your post was not worth a single drop of piss in the dessert!

Something positive about Tunney?

He beat what was then the reigning champion of the world. That's it!

He won it against a crude light HW slugger with no appreciable skills, whom achieved his own success via padding his record and avoiding all dangerous opponents. He never faced a black fighter, and he never faced a decent abilitied 200+ HW boxer. They were all bums!

Tunney himself, ALSO ducked coloured fighters.

Imagine if that occurred today?

Tunney has his place in history. The moment you try to compare him to more recent times, it's a joke.

Sergie Kovalev and Roy Jones Jr. would have been the HW champions of the world for as long as they liked and been so dominant nobody would even want to be a boxer with them around. That is a fact!

I really don't understand your post.

Whether the fighter mentioned is from 1900's Tunney
or
1970's Forman

or 1990's Tua vs a Adamak...

you do realize this is all mythical discussions right?
The thread is which era had the most talented HW's not, which one of us is Miss Cleo possessing knowledge of fights that will never happen. Its called speculation, take a chill pill bro! whew!

Yet you continuously plow through these posts as if you really know who woulda coulda won.

Serious, do I claim anyone in any mythical matchup would win?

No, I usually say IMO, or it appears.
But keep on thinking that yesteryear's fighters would have been blown out, then go on a current mythical match up and you might be the number one person stating someone from the 1990's would have beaten someone from 2014.
A fighter from the past...beating a fighter from the present...

[Max Power]

There is a big difference when you are trying to coompare THIS..

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1328371622.jpg

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/113395.gif

To this...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0328...ones01_576.jpg

And especially to this!...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/166000...0_lewsi300.jpg

I'm sorry, but I don't need a crystal ball to predict that outcome.

Anyway, sure the closer eras are, the more it's blurred.

But 100 years is a significant time.

There is a fool proof way to know what the best eras are.

It's the current and the most recent ones (90's+ imo).

Because boxers getter better and stronger from generation to generation in general. Journeymen todat cheive their records by beating better and stronger bums than previously. Contenders today bet better and stronger journeymen. Champs today beat better and stronger contenders.

Past eras as far back as your referring to were RIDDLED with bums. These days the champs are disallowed to fight bums, only at the beginning of their careers before they become champs.

In Tunney's era and around that time, bum fights were sometimes considered world championships!

[SlimTrae]

There is a big difference when you are trying to coompare THIS..

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1328371622.jpg

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/113395.gif

To this...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0328...ones01_576.jpg

And especially to this!...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/166000...0_lewsi300.jpg

I'm sorry, but I don't need a crystal ball to predict that outcome.

Anyway, sure the closer eras are, the more it's blurred.

But 100 years is a significant time.

There is a fool proof way to know what the best eras are.

It's the current and the most recent ones (90's+ imo).

Because boxers getter better and stronger from generation to generation in general. Journeymen todat cheive their records by beating better and stronger bums than previously. Contenders today bet better and stronger journeymen. Champs today beat better and stronger contenders.

Past eras as far back as your referring to were RIDDLED with bums. These days the champs are disallowed to fight bums, only at the beginning of their careers before they become champs.

In Tunney's era and around that time, bum fights were sometimes considered world championships!

And so you feel then that the Klitchskos have fought no bums?

So then I could take this to mean that all of the fighters who the Klitchkos fought were way better than anyone from the 1980s and back.

And Wladimir and Vitali would beat the mouthpieces off every HW 1980 and previous? Because they are bigger and taller? Remember now, the younger brother had to learn a system from E. Steward and before that he was getting dropped left and right. Without Emanuel Steward his height didn't get him very far. & Steward is (old) school.

Also remember back then they didn't wear 16oz gloves. Those guys were some tough hombres.

In theory I agree as time moves on, every sport produces a generation slightly better, but that is conjecture and seemingly flawed one a case by case basis.

Just follow me here- Today in football the average player is heavier, taller and stronger Agree?
Same with basketball.

Yet this is a fact if we choose to try me: Today guys who are more muscular have way friggin more injuries and are sidelined. Back in the day athletes didn't have trainers and conditioners who burn all that fat away, leaving muscle to rupture, tear.

Yesteryear those athletes had a special anger that starvation, depression brought about..it is an inner strength that you or I can't measure. They didn't do like Vitali did against Chris Byrd and quit...over a shoulder injury.


So back to boxing...a man like Jack Johnson may not be as big as today's HW, but he took shots with gloves that would be illegal today.

And I agree you don't need a crystal ball to predict the outcome...because it cant predicted. Or speculated, there we part ways. This conversation is purely subjective, be it 50 year difference 100 or last year. Only fighters who are upright and still breathing can we make predictions that come to fruition.
Everything else is purely speculative.
Nevertheless I respect a fight fan who sticks to their guns and you come out guns a blazing!
Might be shooting blanks though...

[SlimTrae]

Okay, I clicked on your links.

They're photos.

[Max Power]

And so you feel then that the Klitchskos have fought no bums?

So then I could take this to mean that all of the fighters who the Klitchkos fought were way better than anyone from the 1980s and back.

And Wladimir and Vitali would beat the mouthpieces off every HW 1980 and previous? Because they are bigger and taller? Remember now, the younger brother had to learn a system from E. Steward and before that he was getting dropped left and right. Without Emanuel Steward his height didn't get him very far. & Steward is (old) school.

Also remember back then they didn't wear 16oz gloves. Those guys were some tough hombres.

In theory I agree as time moves on, every sport produces a generation slightly better, but that is conjecture and seemingly flawed one a case by case basis.

Just follow me here- Today in football the average player is heavier, taller and stronger Agree?
Same with basketball.

Yet this is a fact if we choose to try me: Today guys who are more muscular have way friggin more injuries and are sidelined. Back in the day athletes didn't have trainers and conditioners who burn all that fat away, leaving muscle to rupture, tear.

Yesteryear those athletes had a special anger that starvation, depression brought about..it is an inner strength that you or I can't measure. They didn't do like Vitali did against Chris Byrd and quit...over a shoulder injury.


So back to boxing...a man like Jack Johnson may not be as big as today's HW, but he took shots with gloves that would be illegal today.

And I agree you don't need a crystal ball to predict the outcome...because it cant predicted. Or speculated, there we part ways. This conversation is purely subjective, be it 50 year difference 100 or last year. Only fighters who are upright and still breathing can we make predictions that come to fruition.
Everything else is purely speculative.
Nevertheless I respect a fight fan who sticks to their guns and you come out guns a blazing!
Might be shooting blanks though...

OF course the Klitschko's have fought bums, as does every boxer. The thing with Klitschko is that no other boxer has fought more quality opponents than Wladimir Klitschko at real HW! In fact even considering against previous eras (including sub200 opponents, Wladimir fares among the best in this case.)

I know many ppl CALL them bums, but they are really past present and future champs, unbeaten contenders, ultra slick athletes or giant towering boxers, all with great records and very hard punches.

Your quip regarding Wladimir getting knocked around left right and centre prior to the system Steward taught him is totally false! He had only been down a few times in his career and lost 2ce by stoppage. Only 1 of those times being relevant for Stewards system to HOLD when in trouble. Previous to that he knocked out nearly every single opponent except the one he gassed against which he beat the shit out of anyway!

Of course Wladimir could dominate all the 80's boxers, knock practically every one of them out and win nearly every round. LOOK at him! Mike Tyson is the only serious question mark here. And these days that's a less than even chance for old Mike.

Your comment regarding injuries today is very relevant and I agree totally. If you notice I have always championed the idea that fat is not detrimental to HW boxing which is why there ARE successful fat boxers in the first place. I fail to see how more injuries in any way worsens boxers chances though, if it was bad they wouldn't do it! Fighting every month like past times was FAR more deleterious to health and ability than bloody camps are!

Then you make comment analogous that past boxers were "mentally tougher", absolute rot that every old codger concocts. Boxers are boxers, they ALL have that heart and warrior spirit else they wouldn't be pro boxers. Boxers today are SMARTER if that's what you mean! Sure you can mention VK quitting vs Byrd but you THEN have to look on his performance with half his face off vs Lennox too!

Please indicate to me boxers like Byrd etc who, undersized fight high quality giant boxers regularly? Only Joe Louis ever beat mention worthy giants in the past!

Please indicate to me a boxer with the heart of Lamon Brewster for example who came forward in 2 fights to receive some of the most brutal thrashings (even in the fight he won) against WKlitshcko, ever dished out in a HW boxing match all time?

Besides, no amount of heart could allow most of those boxers to survive. It would simply get them knocked out even quicker.

It's evident today in how much boxing has changed at HW.

Past fights were a back and forth slugfest in which bravado was key.

Today we see tentative and carefully executed gameplay instead. There's a reason for that. In the past the punches were bareable. Even George Foreman took multiple shots aand KD's to put away over matched opponents. Now days everybody knows it only takes a single punch for a cold canvas KO.

To see what I mean watch the cautious styles here...

[Beanflicker]

Bottom line: the Klitschko's fought ALL comers, including black fighters. Take black fighters out of the mix and Wlad has ONE freak loss to Corrie Sanders (RIP) and Vitali is undefeated.

[Max Power]

Bottom line: the Klitschko's fought ALL comers, including black fighters. Take black fighters out of the mix and Wlad has ONE freak loss to Corrie Sanders (RIP) and Vitali is undefeated.

Yes, in fact you can take this further...

Wladimir Klitschko has fought in more countries than any HW except Ali.

Wladimir Klitschko has fought not only black boxers, but boxers of more nationalities than any other boxer.

He has faced the most diverse styles, shapes and sizes of any boxer.

And most importantly, he took on all good Southpaws as well which are the more difficult and dangerous opponents for orthodox fighters.

MAny champion boxers like Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis ducked all southpaws!

[Master]

Again I say this and please digest - Other than size the vast majority modern heavyweight fighters have poor skill and technique. This is why Wlad is so dominate and even then he struggles to finish his opponents because of his suspect chin.

Holmes and Tyson wipe out Wlad.

[Max Power]

Again I say this and please digest - Other than size the vast majority modern heavyweight fighters have poor skill and technique. This is why Wlad is so dominate and even then he struggles to finish his opponents because of his suspect chin.

Holmes and Tyson wipe out Wlad.

On the contrary, HW "defence" imo only became of utmost importance during the era of the superheavyweight.

The Klitschko's, Pulev, Thompson etc, utilise their height allied to their timing as there defence.

Shorter boxers like Stiverne, Haye etc are expert counter-punchers.

There are offence oriented boxers and tankers just as there are in every era too.

Nothing has been lost, everything has improved generally. Specifically, "DEFENSIVE" boxers today are more elusive than defensive boxers yesterday!

2 masters of escapology, Byrd and Chambers are unrivalled among HW's throughout time.

Technique? There are boxers with poorer technique as there are in all eras. The problem here is you compare average boxers today with guys like Holmes.

The correct comparison would be champ compared to champ, journeyman compared to journeyman etc. Then everything miraculously falls into place, today's boxers are much better!

I ain't gonna rip on Holmes too much because he was a great boxer but he isn't beating Wladimir, he would most likely be knocked out.

Tyson is a good question, he was certainly more skilled that most HW's of the Klitschko era and otherwise had other qualities to back himself up where he didn't. But again, Tyson IS a modern CHAMP.

What about the golden era...

Geroge Foreman- absolutely no defence or no technique, would be among the least skilled of all current HW's and most hittable.

Muhammad Ali- Total punch bag, almost WANTED to get hit, has also been described as having one of the most technically flawed styles ever. Basically won by out-staminizing his opponents (and being facially assisted).

Joe Frazier- Ate punches for breakfast, had no skills whatsoever, was partially BLIND, so he can be partially forgiven!

Sonny Liston- Highly uncoordinated, could not properly defend himself and was too slow to hit a modern boxer.

These were the CHAMPS of the past!

Wladimir is so dominant because he completely transformed boxing from a slug fest into a chess match. His opponents are some of the most dangerous competition of all time, and he dominates them because he is UNBELIEVABLY good. Helped out obviously because of his length, his weight and his conditioning.

As for his chin, WK has a strong chin! Obviously! Look at that head! He has the best HW record of all time against the hardest hitting opponents of all time and only 1ce in 66 fights ever been starched by anything that might be considered a chin check (which was a butt-fight anyway). And he has NEVER been cold canvassed KOed ever like say Lennox Lewis for example.

He has been knocked down multiple times (even in the fight he lost above) and got up to WIN, always finished a fight on his feet and taken some of the biggest bombs ever and shook them off.

He can be hurt, I never said he had an iron chin, but that's vs this era. You put that chin in any era pre80's and Wladimir Klitschko, has not only an iron chin.. But the strongest of ALL chins! That is a fact!

[Master]

Just because you write a lot does not make you right.

Defence was only utilised by the fighters 2000? Have you heard yourself. You embarrass yourself with every post you make.

Holmes knocked out by Wlad how? With the excessive holding? He was rocked by a jab by Pulev.

[Max Power]

Just because you write a lot does not make you right.

Defence was only utilised by the fighters 2000? Have you heard yourself. You embarrass yourself with every post you make.

Holmes knocked out by Wlad how? With the excessive holding? He was rocked by a jab by Pulev.

He was knocked back a bit by a Pulev jab.

Pulev, a 6'4" 240lb giant technical boxer with solid record, unbeaten and rich pedigree.

Gee that's bad!

You can only criticise Wladimir on a fight he dominated in against an opponent as good as which never existed in Holmes era (except maybe aforementioned Tyson).

Meanwhile Holmes was decisioned 2ce by an opponent who Wladimir would knock out with the first connected hard right hand or left hook. Gifted against Witherspoon who was no Pulev, wasted by Tyson, went balls to the wall with Norton who didn't even start to box until his 20's and got bloody knocked down by cruiser cruncher bum beater Shavers who'd never even land a punch on Klitschko let alone a damaging one.

I like Holmes but don't try to sell me he'd be a thrashing machine in the current era. The nature of his wins in his own era was sometimes not dominant and he never fought the kind of dangerous opponents that he'd have to now.

I only wrote a lot then because I tried to cover the relevant facts before you tried to find the flaws.

Of course boxers have defence prior to 2000. But the difference in boxing now to your times is evidently different. Look at the caution involved now by most fighters, instead of the dropped guard slug fests of yesteryear. It's clear it's today paramount. The Manswell Stiverne bout above is a nice little example.

You call it boring, and "fighting scared". I call it smart and I call it defensive minded. Harder punches, force higher defence. Because any fighter that doesn't have these qualities now in some form must either have an iron chin like none before, or they'd be knocked out well before we would even learn their name!