Holocaust denial

[Gandalf]

This is a topic I have been looking into a little. The very term denial would indicate that you are saying something didn't happen, that you refute something existed, but most revisionists openly accept that the holocaust existed. It is just that they dispute certain aspects of the traditional claims and in some respects have been proven correct. Initial claims of 4 million Jews killed at Aushwitz were revised down to 1.1 million. Not a small number and it makes you wonder.

I have also been following the story of David Cole, an intelligent young man who raised some interesting questions about traditional historical claims about the holocaust. Money was offered by the Jewish Defense League for information about where Cole lived and seemingly Cole went into hiding. A few years later he retracted all of his former views apparently of his own volition.

Clearly in some nations it is a crime to deny the holocaust. Well, actually it is a crime to even question the extent of the holocaust. Nobody is denying the holocaust, but merely questioning the lack of evidence concerning numbers and documents supporting key elements. This should not be a crime and to classify it as such is Orwellian in nature.

It seems that a holocaust denier is anyone who questions official accounts of the holcaust. Obviously revisionist is a far more apt term. Just as you critizise the terrorism of Israel and become an anti-semite, you criticize the lack of evidence on the holocaust and become a denier.

It just sounds more extreme than the so called deniers themselves. Thoughts?

[TitoFan]

Good point you make, miles. But in referring to the holocaust, I would look at the big picture, this being that an atrocity against mankind occurred during that time, the victims being the Jews and the perpetrators being Nazi Germany. "Big picture wise", who really cares whether it was 4 million or 1.1 million. It was a systematic extermination of people based on their race, an event that mankind should never have to suffer again. IMO, to compare any other war or conflict to this holocaust is not right, simply because nothing like that has happened to that grand scale.

I understand some of your underlying arguments. You constantly push your agenda about the U.S. and Israel being the biggest threats to world peace, as you stated in another thread. And that is your opinion. But again, IMO, to try and draw a comparison between any U.S. military action and the holocaust (if in fact that is what you're trying to do), is grossly unfair and inaccurate.

I think the U.S. can certainly tone down some of its involvement in some parts of the world. I don't recall there ever being a vote where the U.S. was chosen to be the world's policeman or hallway monitor, if you will. Let countries settle their own affairs, unless of course their affairs threaten world peace.

In fact, you're so blinded (sorry to use that word) by your antagonistic feelings toward the U.S. military, that you brush aside the very real threat of your belligerent neighbor, North Korea. They just made the news again, and I posted the link on your threat to world peace thread.

But bottom line: it should be ok to revise numbers and exact facts about the holocaust without being vilified or persecuted. As long as it's not with the agenda of trying to minimize its impact on society or minimize the magnitude of the event.

[Gandalf]

The numbers are significant though as sympathy for the Jewish plight is partly what created Israel. It was exagerrated and has since been accepted as nonsense. 1 million is significantly less than 4 million. Numbers do matter in describing historical events as it is a discipline and should be factual; not merely a tool used for contemporary political gain and in many respects the holocaust has been a massively manipulated event and any criticism has been shouted down with claims of Nazi sympathies and denial of events, which is just absurd. Well, realistically if we are to describe a systematic genocide as a holocaust then the US treatment of the native Indians is comparable and was far more extreme. Estimates of 100 million killed are not uncommon and then compared with estimates of the holocaust and you see greater genocides have occured. If I was a German then I too might have been placed in a concentration camp. It wasn't only Jews who were put there, it was anyone frowned upon. Catholic Poles, dissidents, miltary deserters etc too. It wasn't solely a Jewish experience to be put into a camp.

You are somewhat moving into different issues with talk of America, but as plainly highlighted and easily backed up, the genocide of the native Indians was easily far more brutal than anything suffered by the Jews in Europe. Not that I make light of the holocaust, but you say that comparisons cannot be made and clearly they can. Obvious ones too.

Your third paragraph unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge concerning US interference around the globe in the 20th century. They chose to make themselves the Empire builder of the modern age and the fact that they have hundreds of military bases around the world tells you all you need to know about the benign role of global policeman.

Next you talk about North Korea. Again, you show concern about what is not important and have completely run away from the main thread topic as you likely don't know very much. North Korea wants to put a satellite into orbit. So what? America wants to militarise space and to do it unilaterally. Do you know how many satellites are in space?

Holcaust denial is rarely denial in the true meaning of the term. Norman Finkelstein has documented how the Holcaust is nothing more than a big money grab for many Jews. The holocaust card is lame as Jews were a small percentage of those killed in WW2 and we seldom hear of nations being built for other sufferers of genocide. There is an obvious hypocrisy in the West concerning the holocaust. It is not more important than other acts of genocide and torture. In fact the biggest concentration camp in the world today is operated by Jews. They were taught by the Germans, the Americans and the British, who have all held concentration camps.

[Gandalf]

Well, I don't really see a counter punch and just a lot of point avoidance. You took issue with what I said and if you are going to argue something then do it. You argued nothing and started waffling about North Korea.

Also looking at how you have carried on recently, you look like a bit of a twit. 'Gramps!', oh dear. You must be a maximum of 17 years of age. I can't take you seriously.

And you want to criticise my take on the world? Sure, go for it. But we all know you are ridiculous. I am far more valid than you.

[TitoFan]

Well, I don't really see a counter punch and just a lot of point avoidance. You took issue with what I said and if you are going to argue something then do it. You argued nothing and started waffling about North Korea.

Also looking at how you have carried on recently, you look like a bit of a twit. 'Gramps!', oh dear. You must be a maximum of 17 years of age. I can't take you seriously.

And you want to criticise my take on the world? Sure, go for it. But we all know you are ridiculous. I am far more valid than you.

I tried to start a civil argument but apparently you're incapable of that. So I'll just proceed to group you with gramps from here on out. Also, you take issue because I don't respond to your counter argument immediately. Well... some of us have lives outside the boxing forum. Excuse me if I'm not hanging on to your every word while life continues outside. I had things to do, and now I'm back. Is that ok with you? I'll choose the high road and not respond to your insults with insults. I'll just point out where your arguments are wrong. But you'll have to wait even more, because I now have family dropping by and unfortunately that takes precedence over responding to a suicidal, truly strange individual.

And by the way, twerp... I'm not the only who slashes himself with razor blades, or who has life crises about whether your hair is too long or too short. Valid? You're an unstable, sad little man, with far worse issues than having a few scrapes on this forum. Get help and grow up.

[Beanz]

This is a topic I have been looking into a little. The very term denial would indicate that you are saying something didn't happen, that you refute something existed, but most revisionists openly accept that the holocaust existed. It is just that they dispute certain aspects of the traditional claims and in some respects have been proven correct. Initial claims of 4 million Jews killed at Aushwitz were revised down to 1.1 million. Not a small number and it makes you wonder.

I have also been following the story of David Cole, an intelligent young man who raised some interesting questions about traditional historical claims about the holocaust. Money was offered by the Jewish Defense League for information about where Cole lived and seemingly Cole went into hiding. A few years later he retracted all of his former views apparently of his own volition.

Clearly in some nations it is a crime to deny the holocaust. Well, actually it is a crime to even question the extent of the holocaust. Nobody is denying the holocaust, but merely questioning the lack of evidence concerning numbers and documents supporting key elements. This should not be a crime and to classify it as such is Orwellian in nature.

It seems that a holocaust denier is anyone who questions official accounts of the holcaust. Obviously revisionist is a far more apt term. Just as you critizise the terrorism of Israel and become an anti-semite, you criticize the lack of evidence on the holocaust and become a denier.

It just sounds more extreme than the so called deniers themselves. Thoughts?

Here is that retraction

Shofar FTP Archives: people/c/cole.david//cole.recants


Revisionist is not an apt term at all. Your Ignorance is I presume wilful. Your predetermined conclusion is all about denial and uses no historical methodologies that could be seen as evidence therefore it is denial. The lack of evidence you speak of is glaringly obvious only here in your own post. Your initial claims of 4 million dead at Auschwitz is not a claim made by Jewish survivors or even some Zionist Conspiracy, It is a claim made by the Polish Communist Government under the orders of Russia. The plaque to which you and other Holocaust DENIERS refer did not even mention Jews it referred to 4 million enemies of the Nazis having died there. Over a million Jews were murdered there though and yet in your post there is no mention of Treblinka,Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmo,Majdanek etc or the 6 million Jews executed by the Nazis. There is no lack of evidence on the Holocaust and so it is you and your theories of a Jewish Conspiracy that is truly Orwellian.

[VictorCharlie]

Miles,

Let me help your consistent ignorance on the US. Scholars vary on how many native Americans were living in what is now considered the US. The numbers vary between 1 and 15 million so lets call it 7 million. Infectious diseases such as small pox killed up to 90% of native east coast communities within a few years of first contact with Europeans. Scholars also differ on the amount that died from European diseases across the continent but the numbers are between 50-70% of the continent. Anthropologists calculated the native populations in 1800 (24 years after the US first existed) at around 600k. Native body counts from American/Indian conflicts also vary between 100-500k. In the grand scheme of things we are talking between 100-500k caused by US conflicts compared to 3.5 to 5 million from disease. So unless you are suggesting that Europeans killing off most of the Native American population because of their runny noses before the US even existed is the equivalent to the Holocaust I'd suggest your pick up a book or two.

[Beanz]

The numbers are significant though as sympathy for the Jewish plight is partly what created Israel. It was exagerrated and has since been accepted as nonsense. 1 million is significantly less than 4 million. Numbers do matter in describing historical events as it is a discipline and should be factual; not merely a tool used for contemporary political gain and in many respects the holocaust has been a massively manipulated event and any criticism has been shouted down with claims of Nazi sympathies and denial of events, which is just absurd. Well, realistically if we are to describe a systematic genocide as a holocaust then the US treatment of the native Indians is comparable and was far more extreme. Estimates of 100 million killed are not uncommon and then compared with estimates of the holocaust and you see greater genocides have occured. If I was a German then I too might have been placed in a concentration camp. It wasn't only Jews who were put there, it was anyone frowned upon. Catholic Poles, dissidents, miltary deserters etc too. It wasn't solely a Jewish experience to be put into a camp.

You are somewhat moving into different issues with talk of America, but as plainly highlighted and easily backed up, the genocide of the native Indians was easily far more brutal than anything suffered by the Jews in Europe. Not that I make light of the holocaust, but you say that comparisons cannot be made and clearly they can. Obvious ones too.

Your third paragraph unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge concerning US interference around the globe in the 20th century. They chose to make themselves the Empire builder of the modern age and the fact that they have hundreds of military bases around the world tells you all you need to know about the benign role of global policeman.

Next you talk about North Korea. Again, you show concern about what is not important and have completely run away from the main thread topic as you likely don't know very much. North Korea wants to put a satellite into orbit. So what? America wants to militarise space and to do it unilaterally. Do you know how many satellites are in space?

Holcaust denial is rarely denial in the true meaning of the term. Norman Finkelstein has documented how the Holcaust is nothing more than a big money grab for many Jews. The holocaust card is lame as Jews were a small percentage of those killed in WW2 and we seldom hear of nations being built for other sufferers of genocide. There is an obvious hypocrisy in the West concerning the holocaust. It is not more important than other acts of genocide and torture. In fact the biggest concentration camp in the world today is operated by Jews. They were taught by the Germans, the Americans and the British, who have all held concentration camps.

What a surprise not content with worshipping at the feet of Psuedo Intellectual Chomsky you now are seemingly besotted by his lapdog Norman Finklestein.

Norman Finkelstein: the case against | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

CAMERA: Norman Finkelstein's Fraudulent Scholarship


You open your post equating the massacre of Native Americans with the holocaust and then berate TitoFan for "moving into different issues with talk of America". This is somewhat Freudian given the fact that your own denial of the Holocaust much like Finklesteins issue and Noam's, is American foreign policy particularly with reference to Isreal. You work back from this and present a revisionist form of history that chimes with your own delusions and prejudices. You again deny that you are denying the holocaust and then say (your own words) "The holocaust card is lame as Jews were a small percentage of those killed in WW2" and then (Finklestinkycrimes words) "the Holcaust is nothing more than a big money grab for many Jews". Before rounding it off with you and Kirklands oft repeated bullshit mantra, "the biggest concentration camp in the world today is operated by Jews". Can you not see how it is then very difficult for people to believe that your own appraisal of the facts is anything but cursory and dismissive, merely an exercise to appear more informed than the rest and to ironically be aligned yourself with the oppressed, by belittling, and tramping down the memories of those killed by the Nazis ? The fact that Disabled,Gay,Polish,Gypsy, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others were also killed by the Nazis has never been disputed by Jews who were also represented by some of those descriptions, and yet you seek to use it to in some way minimise the genocide of Jews. Jews do not deny the genocide in Rwanda and other countries because they do not have the agenda that you so badly disguise.

[VictorCharlie]

Wait a minute....is GB ass kissing Tito now? I'm confused.

[TitoFan]

I've got enough bitch-slaps in my arsenal to go around. You know... so no one feels left out.

[TitoFan]

Miles I won't have to bitch slap. He'll probably cut his own jugular one of these days when he wakes up in one of those "am I a fag or not" instrospective moods.

[TitoFan]

C'mon goddamit..... who's next?

[TitoFan]

Here's what's wrong with your initial response:

The numbers are significant though as sympathy for the Jewish plight is partly what created Israel. It was exagerrated and has since been accepted as nonsense. 1 million is significantly less than 4 million. Numbers do matter in describing historical events as it is a discipline and should be factual; not merely a tool used for contemporary political gain and in many respects the holocaust has been a massively manipulated event and any criticism has been shouted down with claims of Nazi sympathies and denial of events, which is just absurd. Well, realistically if we are to describe a systematic genocide as a holocaust then the US treatment of the native Indians is comparable and was far more extreme. Estimates of 100 million killed are not uncommon and then compared with estimates of the holocaust and you see greater genocides have occured. If I was a German then I too might have been placed in a concentration camp. It wasn't only Jews who were put there, it was anyone frowned upon. Catholic Poles, dissidents, miltary deserters etc too. It wasn't solely a Jewish experience to be put into a camp. So that makes it less wrong?

You are somewhat moving into different issues with talk of America, but as plainly highlighted and easily backed up, the genocide of the native Indians was easily far more brutal than anything suffered by the Jews in Europe. Not that I make light of the holocaust, but you say that comparisons cannot be made and clearly they can. Obvious ones too. Let me explain something to you. Indians were killed in battle with settlers and colonists. Over many years, yes... the numbers were large. Jews were collected, lined up, and exterminated. No fighting back... no wars or skirmishes. Just extermination. Can you grasp that concept? Or would you like it in Korean?

Your third paragraph unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge concerning US interference around the globe in the 20th century. They chose to make themselves the Empire builder of the modern age and the fact that they have hundreds of military bases around the world tells you all you need to know about the benign role of global policeman. Did you bother to read my fucking argument correctly?? That's what i SAID. The U.S. took that role upon itself without global consent. Who the fuck are you arguing against??

Next you talk about North Korea. Again, you show concern about what is not important and have completely run away from the main thread topic as you likely don't know very much. North Korea wants to put a satellite into orbit. And if you believe THAT crock of shit... I've got some beachfront property in Nebraska I'd like to sell you. Naive twerp.... So what? America wants to militarise space and to do it unilaterally. Do you know how many satellites are in space?

Holcaust denial is rarely denial in the true meaning of the term. Norman Finkelstein has documented how the Holcaust is nothing more than a big money grab for many Jews. The holocaust card is lame as Jews were a small percentage of those killed in WW2 Again... and try to follow this time. Genocide and casualties of war are two different things. Clear enough for you? I'm through being civil with you.... as I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my first response and now you're just going to get the back of my hand like the other twerp. and we seldom hear of nations being built for other sufferers of genocide. There is an obvious hypocrisy in the West concerning the holocaust. It is not more important than other acts of genocide and torture. In fact the biggest concentration camp in the world today is operated by Jews. They were taught by the Germans, the Americans and the British, who have all held concentration camps.

[TitoFan]

My quota is one civil response. After that it's bitch slapping time.

[Beanz]

So now @TitoFan reveals his latent homophobia by calling Miles a "fag" and going on about "bitch slapping" again....yawn. Ironically enough the equally charming Mr " the Jews use the holocaust as the ultimate marketing tool" Finklestein, writes for the same magazine (counterpunch) as Tweety's rabid Ms Wier. ( Yes her of the Isrealis steal organs balanced brand of journalism).