DID SMOKIN' JOE RIDE THE GRAVY TRAIN ?

[ja]

DID SMOKIN' JOE RIDE THE GRAVY TRAIN ?





The lyrics of a song by Pink Floyd may have summed up the whole
situation. " Have a cigar, you're gonna go far. That's the name of the game
boy...They call it ridin' the gravy train ".

After Joe Frazier defeated Muhammad Ali in their March 8, 1971
classic, in my eyes he was never the same. He had future moments, the win
over Quarry, the " Thrilla In Manila " but for all intents and purposes, Joe
left his soul in that Madison Square Garden ring. I have followed boxing for
close to forty years. In that time I have seen so many game warriors. I've
seen men die in the ring or become disabled or suffer post career dementia.
For all the horrible things I've seen one fight will always stand out for
me. Frazier-Ali I WAS the Fight Of The Century. Please have no doubt about
it. In that fight I have never seen a boxer with such a will to win then Joe
Frazier had that night. He was NOT going to be denied. Ali could have had a
tire iron and a billy club in the ring that night and he still would have
lost. That night Joe Frazier could have held his own with any heavyweight
who ever lived !

What happened after that ? That's easy...Joe was the " Man ". He had
finally shut up the " Louisville Lip ". Remember though that Joe took a
terrible physical beating in that fight. Also all the emotional stress
leading up to that bout took a serious toll on Joe. He needed a rest. He
needed an easy fight. He got one. Enter Terry Daniels. In a phrase that
Bobby Czyz would coin, he was " bright, white and polite ". Well that was
Terry. He was an articulate young man who could fight a little bit but
against Frazier he was totally over matched. He was stopped in four. Next
enter the " Council Bluffs Butcher ", Ron Stander. So many more worthy
besides Ali were passed over but Ronny was considered a more serious
challenge then Daniels.

For two rounds, Frazier-Stander was a competitive bout. As Frazier
would say later, " Ronny came to fight ". Give him that but by the third
round Joe was chopping him up. It was over by round five. Another relatively
easy defense for Joe.

Did the " gravy train " lead to his demise eight months later against
George Foreman ? Look at photos of Joe in the March 8th bout. Then look at
photos of him against Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena and Jimmy Ellis. Then he
was a fighting machine. Then you see a somewhat flabby Frazier in the ring
with this fearsome looking fellow named Foreman. It was a " massacre ".
George bounced Joe around like a rubber ball. Yes I know styles make fights
and Joe was made for George. Still I'll always wonder if George could have
beat the Frazier of March 8th, 1971 ?

[bigragu]

no way...Foreman was a beast and style made the fight...just like it made the fight between Foreman-Ali.......He ran into a bigger meaner younger version of himself.....what would you expect the outcome to be.....the only gravy in SMOKIN JOE'S life is what he puts on his biscuits!!!!! I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.....

[sexydarin]

smokin joe could have taken anybody when he was in shape and if he wasn't blind in one eye. he fought with one eye for christ sakes!

[Gandalf]

DID SMOKIN' JOE RIDE THE GRAVY TRAIN ?





The lyrics of a song by Pink Floyd may have summed up the whole
situation. " Have a cigar, you're gonna go far. That's the name of the game
boy...They call it ridin' the gravy train ".

After Joe Frazier defeated Muhammad Ali in their March 8, 1971
classic, in my eyes he was never the same. He had future moments, the win
over Quarry, the " Thrilla In Manila " but for all intents and purposes, Joe
left his soul in that Madison Square Garden ring. I have followed boxing for
close to forty years. In that time I have seen so many game warriors. I've
seen men die in the ring or become disabled or suffer post career dementia.
For all the horrible things I've seen one fight will always stand out for
me. Frazier-Ali I WAS the Fight Of The Century. Please have no doubt about
it. In that fight I have never seen a boxer with such a will to win then Joe
Frazier had that night. He was NOT going to be denied. Ali could have had a
tire iron and a billy club in the ring that night and he still would have
lost. That night Joe Frazier could have held his own with any heavyweight
who ever lived !

What happened after that ? That's easy...Joe was the " Man ". He had
finally shut up the " Louisville Lip ". Remember though that Joe took a
terrible physical beating in that fight. Also all the emotional stress
leading up to that bout took a serious toll on Joe. He needed a rest. He
needed an easy fight. He got one. Enter Terry Daniels. In a phrase that
Bobby Czyz would coin, he was " bright, white and polite ". Well that was
Terry. He was an articulate young man who could fight a little bit but
against Frazier he was totally over matched. He was stopped in four. Next
enter the " Council Bluffs Butcher ", Ron Stander. So many more worthy
besides Ali were passed over but Ronny was considered a more serious
challenge then Daniels.

For two rounds, Frazier-Stander was a competitive bout. As Frazier
would say later, " Ronny came to fight ". Give him that but by the third
round Joe was chopping him up. It was over by round five. Another relatively
easy defense for Joe.

Did the " gravy train " lead to his demise eight months later against
George Foreman ? Look at photos of Joe in the March 8th bout. Then look at
photos of him against Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena and Jimmy Ellis. Then he
was a fighting machine. Then you see a somewhat flabby Frazier in the ring
with this fearsome looking fellow named Foreman. It was a " massacre ".
George bounced Joe around like a rubber ball. Yes I know styles make fights
and Joe was made for George. Still I'll always wonder if George could have
beat the Frazier of March 8th, 1971 ?

an interesting post and some interesting questions raised

its one of those questions we can debate until blue in the face but we can never know....

[JT Rock]

no way...Foreman was a beast and style made the fight...just like it made the fight between Foreman-Ali.......He ran into a bigger meaner younger version of himself.....what would you expect the outcome to be.....the only gravy in SMOKIN JOE'S life is what he puts on his biscuits!!!!! I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.....

Why would you take offense to such well thought out provocative post?? I give people credit for having the ballz to post things like this its certainly more mature and intelligent than some of the threads that are thrown up here....

JA gets a cool click from me

[Wacko3205]

I like some of the thoughts & points & I'll give you a for the posts entirety...but I don't agree with everything...but then again...that's what it's all about.

Personally...I think that Foreman would have dogged Frazier out on any given night.

[bigragu]

no way...Foreman was a beast and style made the fight...just like it made the fight between Foreman-Ali.......He ran into a bigger meaner younger version of himself.....what would you expect the outcome to be.....the only gravy in SMOKIN JOE'S life is what he puts on his biscuits!!!!! I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.....

Why would you take offense to such well thought out provocative post?? I give people credit for having the ballz to post things like this its certainly more mature and intelligent than some of the threads that are thrown up here....

JA gets a cool click from me

all i was was trying to get across was that the first fight with Ali took something out of Smokin Joe..even though he won the fight he lost something with the boxing fans of that time........Foreman was a beast....and to accomplish what he did with one eye is remarkable....I don't think he took any GRAVY period..this is a very proud phily fighter..no way he lays down for anyone!

[pacdog]

Thank you great post for someone familar with boxing history, while foreman may have given joe problems and beat him anyway he was grossly out of shape for that fight, he thought hed walk on george and he suprised him I have always said this having followed his carrer he ws noticably fatter and flabbier and it cost him dearly

[Trainer Monkey]

He lost his legs
Lets face it Smokin Joe had relatively short reach for a heavyweight,he needed to close the gap quickly,when his legs started to give,the end was very quickly in sight

[ICB]

Some good points but i believe it was just a bad style match up for Frazier, he was far too small plus he was always coming at Foreman which made it easier for Forman because he loved guys who come right at him, plus even though Frazier had decent head movement he wasn't that hard to hit and when he was bobbing and weaving he hardly ever threw punches. Funny enough Frazier done much better in the rematch by actually using counter's and not just walking right too Foreman, Foreman actually had a few problems in the first few rounds but he finally caught up to Frazier in the end. I do agree though that Frazier was never quite the same after the 1st Ali fight i think he was in hospital for like 2 weeks ?? i think a piece of Frazier stayed in the ring that night and his form never quite returned and that showed in fights with Stander and Bugner. Although give Frazier credit even in his two losses to Foreman he was always standing when he was stopped he was never stopped while on the canvas and he kept getting up and up even though it was useless because he was totally over powered.