how to excute the shoulder roll to a good standard any ideas??

[TheSilverBoy]

mayweather is brilliant at doing this, i can allways remember when he fought ndou and he was lying on the ropes doing it and ndou missed every shot

[Scrap]

A Little way you could try is get some knee pads and shadow box on your knees moving the knees youll find it incorparates the shoulders a lot more to move

[Tito BHB]

In my opinion if you were to start trying it out i would have you only try it if you were sparring with newbies or lads with less talent then you..

Also im not sure that Pbf is the one you want to be watching if your looking to study the shoulder roll defence and the whole body movement sort of defence..

Firstly if would prefer to study on fighters like hopkins and toney.. Mainly since they are more prominant with the style and floyd does it from time to time..Looks lovely against ndou granted..But floyd is twice the fighter phillip was.. and he has all the skills tied in with it..

If you could possibly find fights from ezzard charles, jersey joe walcott, archie moore.. Then thats where the style really comes from and is the best way to really study it and try it yourself during light sparring and get a feel for it .. Just as bhop and toney have learnt from the old school fighters and put theyr own spin on it.. you cannot learn someone else's style to textbook but incorporate it into what works best for you..

Also just for the sake of throwing it out there.. Member just roll mainly the left shoulder as its easyer to roll and lean away from the right hand.. and keep your right glove up by your chin.. since its important to guard from the left hand..

Hope this is of some help
Peace

[Olympian904]

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

[Scrap]

Tito, Olympian, very good points by you both probably the best exponent of it was Burley cc to you both

[Tito BHB]

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

[Tito BHB]

Backatcha scrap

[Chris Nagel]

mayweather is brilliant at doing this, i can allways remember when he fought ndou and he was lying on the ropes doing it and ndou missed every shot

Hey again Platinum, how's it going?

That was a good show for Floyd, but I think you're missing real brilliance of it. Floyd for granted has a good style, and the speed and reflexes that make it look good. But underneath that I don't think everyone fails to understand what was going on his eyes.

Thanks on part to experience and training background Floyd has an extrasense when it comes from reading into a guy's rhythem. He also adjusts his pace and timing according to what his opponent's up to. Now think back into what happened in round 5 of that fight. You can see Ndou still was going at it and wasn't about to go down Floyd wasn't about to waste an ounce of energy on the guy. He took a breather while his opponent was going into his reserves.

Now this is two keen observations, this shows that Floyd knows when to lay back and when to push the action, the second was the thing of beauty that you saw. Floyd's sense of rhythem and timing was able to stand in the middle of the ring so Ndou would waste his energy, he'd also do it on the ropes or anywhere he was being pressured. HBO's commentators most of the time can't grasp what was going on. While Ndou looked active when throwing ineffective flurries, this is what we call "punching yourself out"

Now let's break down Floyd's rhythem, particularyly the rhythem in which he rolls his shoulders. It's like the flow in Hip-Hop music. At his best he is always moving, improvising like a good musician, he is able to set up his shots often when his opponent is flailing away. Floyd alternates his shoulder rolls, slips/bobbing-and-weaving with his opponent's punches. If you see what I'm starting to see is almost like seeing the different hues in a rainbow, or the relationships in music. There's a rhythem for counterpunching and setting a guy up, a rhythem for defense and avoiding punches, and their is punch rhythem.

I know this is pretty deep, you still with me?


Anyways I'm going to into the technical aspects of the shoulder roll. You can watch fights by James Toney, The Mayweather Clan, and many of the old timers.

This used to be a universal move and started to materialise into a stance until the consensus was people holding their hands in earmuff positions.

The shoulder can done with or without a low left lead. A low left lead can invite right hands which can good thing. Your shoulder roll can block it but better yet it can parry a right hand to the side in which follow up with a right uppercut to the solar plexus or any other possible counters.

There's a few things that you have to keep in mind. Don't lower you left hand unless you are aware of right hands, and that you are ready to counter. Also do not stick your chin out or your head will get ripped off.

Ready? Good.

Now your right hand is your point guard it's going to protect you left hands, particulary the left hook and any flailing/swinging punches.

The shoulder roll, or low left lead can ammount to better awareness if it's concepts and ideas are internalised. By twisting left or right you can block, parry, slip most of their punches.

Experience it, practice it, and master it. Shadowboxing and sparring is one of the best ways of learning these kind of techniques. Also check out any footage of the old timers such as Archie Moore, and some of today's fighters as I mentioned earlier. Man I was all over place on this one, it really piked my interent, if you need me to go over any of the ideas I'll go over it again.

[TheSilverBoy]

thats orsume intrestin reads from all you guys, good input i must say from chris n

[Scrap]

Good post Chris cc. Boxing is about having the answers to movement. What I like about Mayweather is the technique of the shoulders moving the feet, Hes always setting things up.

[Olympian904]

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

Count punches landed on Floyd compared to those landed on Toney....its not even close.Its a DEFENSIVE tactic...so of course Floyd doesnt need it every round.He can rely on his ring awareness and footwork.The shoulder parry has been in the Mayweather family a while...they have almost mastered it.Who taught it to Toney?lol

[Lords Gym]

A Little way you could try is get some knee pads and shadow box on your knees moving the knees youll find it incorparates the shoulders a lot more to move

top shelf information here cc in 24

[Tito BHB]

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

Count punches landed on Floyd compared to those landed on Toney....its not even close.Its a DEFENSIVE tactic...so of course Floyd doesnt need it every round.He can rely on his ring awareness and footwork.The shoulder parry has been in the Mayweather family a while...they have almost mastered it.Who taught it to Toney?lol

Im not entirely certain that its the fact that floyd doesnt need to use it every round..
I dont feel he uses it in even every fight ..To take a round or so off..
He only uses it against certain opponents..His thing is pot shotting and fast and great feet..

Im also not entirely sure on who james' trainer was at the time..
But hes a huge fan of all the old school fighters and learnt from continuously watching tapes of moore, charles, walcott and putting it to practice..

The old fighters are the only fighters ive ever heard toney speak of in a nice manner or actually admit he likes them or respects them..

When it comes to todays or most other past fighters all you get from him is i dont respect nobody, theyr all ducking me ..lol
James toney's favourite fighter is james toney :P

Small talk aside though..Its a beautiful style no doubt

[Chris Nagel]

It doesn't have to a style, if you look at the films of the old timers you'll see they only use it where they see fit. This is one should be worked into shadowboxing and sparring so it can be brought into a fight without thinking about it.

I should also add that you need to become more aware of angles, the range, and your stance. In Floyd's style his body is turned slightly to his right which makes himself a slightly more narrow target, unless of course he's trying to draw in his opponent. Usually he keeps his right hand higher and close to his face, and raises his left shoulder when he feels the need.

Make sure you are balanced, that you are never square, and your chin is tucked. Shadowboxing in the mirror will certainly help because not only can you see what you're doing right, you can keep it right while getting the feeling down. After practicing a move like the shoulder-roll in shadowboxing you're ready to establish the timing, and feeling in relationship with your opponent.

If you need to look back on something you can always go back to the footage. It's good to watch it in slow-motion and real-time to see how they get it going.

I should also bring to attention that with anything technique there is natural counters that you should plan ahead for. As with relationships in the ring you have to become aware of the range and angles. Sometimes it's more natural most folks to go with one hand than it is to shift and throw the other. Getting back to the rhythm in rolling you should begin to notice that most opponents alternate their punches in predictable ways. You'll find it's common for an opponent to only occasionally double up with his punches especially in the middle of a flurry. Like Floyd you have to become conscious of this punching rhythm so that you can adjust the direction of your shoulder rolls, or move accordingly.

This goes into good timing and becoming aware of each one of your opponent's rhythms. Sometimes you can see that in a fight after several rounds one guy figures out the other's rhythm and starts getting there's going. You can upset their rhythm by making yours hard to adjust (e.g. broken rhythm) or by quickening the pace/tempo with pressure.

Now I seen a masterful boxer like Archie Moore with all the experience and technical knowledge in the world get beat by Rocky Marciano based on rhythm and other factors that go hand in hand. In Floyd's fight with Ndou, it wasn't that Ndou was slow, it's because Floyd made him look slow.

It's the rhythm has can be influenced by a lot of movements, changes of speed, direction, side-stepping, angles, weaving, rocking, backpedaling, fighting, slipping punches, spinning, the list could go on and on.

Rhythm is part of the dynamic bigger picture that forms the course and nature of the fight, it's constantly ebbing, changing flows, and with many levels to it like a jigsaw puzzle on top of jigsaw puzzles.

The part that will make you or anyone a great fighter is to FEEL, to experience these movements so that you can internalize it. It's the insights that are gained in such experiences that makes masters of some, while those who can not see nor feel it are left in the darkness.

[Chris Nagel]

Whew, I really got juiced up on this one. I mean the clock just stopped for me.

I hope this helps, because I got a lot out of this. I can see how a lot of trainers get a kick out of teaching this stuff, because I'm as much learning as I am dishing it out. It's been real a pleasure.