Left hook vertical or horizontal fist?>

[Lord Harris]

There seems to be some debate about this, I have thrown them vertical but horizontal supposedly carries more power. What do you do?

[Dizaster]

I've always been trained to throw it with the fist landing verticle, but when i'm kind of looping it a little to come over or around their right hand a little, I bring it more horizontal... Which may or may not be good form,,, but the debate wouldn't be brought up so often between vertical and horizontal if it was completely black and white.

[Scrap]

Think how you Biomechanicley push pull and shove the clues are there

[donnydarkoIRL]

I posted on this before the server went down....
I was trained to land "palms down" when hitting the head and to land with palms facing my own body when hitting his.

[Lord Harris]

Think how you Biomechanicley push pull and shove the clues are there

Well I jab with a vertical fist, I think you mean you hook with a horizontal fist?

Horizontal to the body vertical to the head makes sense.

[Sharla]

I'm suprised you jab with a vertical fist - if we both have the same idea of vertical. It's not really that obvious since a fist isn't exactly a long object - i would have thought the fist is horizontal when the palm faces down.

So my jab would turn at the end of the punch and connect when it's horizontal. I always hook with palm down when aiming for the head. That's just the way I was taught.

[Lord Harris]

I'm suprised you jab with a vertical fist - if we both have the same idea of vertical. It's not really that obvious since a fist isn't exactly a long object - i would have thought the fist is horizontal when the palm faces down.

So my jab would turn at the end of the punch and connect when it's horizontal. I always hook with palm down when aiming for the head. That's just the way I was taught.

I read Ned Beaumont's book, (Boxing as a martial art-great read about the techniques of power punching) he suggested it based on the "power line" that ends with the knuckle of the ring finger (my mistake its actually the little finger), the part I aim with when landing punches (Dempseys book states this also) It feels kind of weird at first but it does carry more power/snap when combined of course with the last fraction of a second grabbing motion of the fist.

[Sharla]

I can see you are well read on the subject but to be honest I'm not and I'm not completely sure I understand. I would have thought that if you did decide to aim to hit with your middle knuckle you could do that regardless of whether or not your fist is vertical or horizontal?

The only person I know who jabs with their palm not finishing facing down had a bad shoulder injury from rugby and modified his punch to avoid turning his shoulder and bodyweight into it. Poor guy is still unable to get back into it the way he'd like to.

[Salty]

I too jab with my fist vertical, still gives decent power but it is much easier to break someones guard with the vertical fist rather that horizontal. With the hook a horizontal fist i find gives much more power (jack dempsey's book is great for improving your power in your punches), after all you want that hook to hurt them

[donnydarkoIRL]

I'm intrigued...

I tell you what, i have a spar Friday and a fight Sunday il try both out and see which i find more beneficial...

[Lord Harris]

I can see you are well read on the subject but to be honest I'm not and I'm not completely sure I understand. I would have thought that if you did decide to aim to hit with your middle knuckle you could do that regardless of whether or not your fist is vertical or horizontal?

The only person I know who jabs with their palm not finishing facing down had a bad shoulder injury from rugby and modified his punch to avoid turning his shoulder and bodyweight into it. Poor guy is still unable to get back into it the way he'd like to.

THE POWER LINE RUNS FROM EITHER SHOULDER-STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF THE ARM TO THE FIST KNUCKLE OF THE LITTLE FINGER, when the fist is doubled. Remember: The power line ends in the fist knuckle of the little finger on either hand. Gaze upon your "pinky" with new respect. You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of your power line- the muzzle of your cannon.

You'll understand the power line if you feel it out.

Stand up. Walk toward a wall until you're at arm's length from the wall when facing it. Put your heels together. You should be standing just far enough from the wall so that you can barely touch it with the tip of the middle finger of your right hand-at a point directly opposite your chin. Touch that chin-high point with your middle-finger tip.

Now, move back three or four inches, but keep the heels together.

Double your right fist firmly. In making a fist, close the fingers into the palm of the hand, and then close the thumb down over the outside of the fingers (Figure 5).

Extend the fist at arm's length toward the spot on the wall-only toward it. The fist should be upright, as if you were holding a stick running from ceiling to floor. The little knuckle is down, toward the floor.

With your arm stiffly extended, let your body sway slowly forward-without moving the feet-until your fist (still upright) is pressed so firmly against the chin-high spot on the wall that your fist and stiff arm are supporting the weight of your leaning body (Figure 6).

Note that the lower part of your fist (still upright)- particularly the little knuckle-provides the natural, solid end of the firm, straight line-from shoulder to fist-that is supporting your weight. Note particularly that this line runs unswervingly through your wrist to the little knuckle (Figure 7).

Now, with your upright fist still supporting your weight at the chin-high spot, try to shift your pressure from the little knuckle to the upper knuckles. Then turn your fist so that the palm of your hand is down. When you attempt those changes, you should feel immediately that both new pressure position of your fist "lack" the "solidity" of the first position. And you should feel and see that a change in position "swerved" the "power line" at the wrist - putting your wrist in a hazardous landing position.

Keeping your feet in the same position, go through the same procedure with your left fist. You'll find the "power line" in the same location - straight from the shoulder through the little knuckle. But, where would the power line be if you wished to lower your fist and punch at a man's stomach?

You can answer that by testing a spot on the wall just opposite of your own solar plexus - the vital body target just below the end of the breast bone. In making the lower test, sway forward from the same standing position - with either fist - toward the solar-plexus spot. But, before you sway, turn your fist palmdown so that the knuckles will be parallel to the ceiling when you press your fist against the wall. The power line still runs solidly through the little knuckle. Now that you have felt out the power line, you can appreciate that the greatest possible solidity would be achieved if you landed every punch with the little knuckle first.

Unfortunately, however, the hand-bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five backbones. It can be broken the most easily. You must not attempt to land first with the little knuckle. Instead you must try to land first with the knuckle next to your pinky (the ring finger). We'll call that the 2nd knuckle. Aiming with the 2nd knuckle usually brings about a three-knuckle landing. Those three-knuckles are: middle, second (ring) and pinky. If you aim with the second knuckle, those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky. Such a three-knuckle landing not only prevents the hand-bone behind any one knuckle from bearing all the punch-shock, but it also permits punching almost exactly along the power line. Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo landing. But if you aim with the little knuckle, you risk a dangerous solo landing on forehead or blocking elbow.

Always aim with the second knuckle-the one next to your pinky-and LET THE OTHER KNUCKLES TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. They'll take care of themselves all right; for the shape of the fist makes it impossible for them to do otherwise.

Clench your right fist and inspect its knuckles. Your thumb knuckle is "out of the way"-completely separated from your row of four knuckles on the striking edge of your fist. More than that, your thumb knuckle is farthest away from your pinky knuckle-farthest away from the end of the power line. Nature took care of that. Never double-cross nature by trying to hit with that thumb knuckle, under any circumstance. It breaks easily. Keep it out of the way.

The knuckle of your index finger (the one next to the thumb) is fairly prominent, but not as prominent as the knuckle of your middle finger. In some face-punches and in most body-blows, that index knuckle will land with the other three, for a four-knuckle landing. That's okay, let the index knuckle come along for the ride. Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break your power line, but you may also break your wrist.

Beware likewise of trying to land first with the prominent middle knuckle-the source of most hand injuries. Such aiming will slant your hand off the power line and, at the same time, endanger the middle knuckle and its hand-bone. When that middle knuckle makes a solo landing, its prominence prevents the other knuckles from helping to absorb some of the punch-shock. That shock or pressure is terrific in any full-fledged punch, particularly when you nail an opponent with a head blow just as he is stepping into you. In that split-second, your fist must withstand the shock-pressure of an explosive collision between two hurtling body-weights.

Let me repeat: If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, the three knuckles-pinky, second and middle-will share the pressure and distribute it over the three hand-bones behind the knuckles. That lessens the chance of bruising or crushing any one knuckle, or of fracturing any one hand-bone.[/size][/size]

[Lord Harris]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??

[Lord Harris]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??

Good point hitmandonny, Dempseys wording seems a little archaic now probably better described as a three knuckle landing, as opposed to a power line. Try it, arms length from wall in the fighting stance, with the vertical then horizontal. I mean guys, its whatever conveys most power efficently to yourselves, i have short hooking/uppercutting arms so need all the power I can get in my jabs. I did experiment with turning my jab over the way you should turn a straight right (from vertical on leaving your shoulder to diagonally down on impact) I found this good also.

Hitmandonny, all the best with your fight mate.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.

Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??

Good point hitmandonny, Dempseys wording seems a little archaic now probably better described as a three knuckle landing, as opposed to a power line. Try it, arms length from wall in the fighting stance, with the vertical then horizontal. I mean guys, its whatever conveys most power efficently to yourselves, i have short hooking/uppercutting arms so need all the power I can get in my jabs. I did experiment with turning my jab over the way you should turn a straight right (from vertical on leaving your shoulder to diagonally down on impact) I found this good also.

I'm not discrediting the idea by any means, i'm interested and i will try it at Training.
As for "turning," the jab i have noticed fighters such as Bernard Hopkins doing this when on the defensive, they wish to put some spite behind the jab to discourage advancing opponents.
As regards this topic, iv actually looked back on some old boxing pictorials and books i have. In most of boxings origin and manuals from the early days i can see that the fist is thrown vertically.

I even have a manual which illustrates 4 kinds of jabs.
1) the vertical fisted jab you use.
2)The traditional jab
3)A "flick jab" thrown from the elbow.
4)A jab with the palm up! almost like an uppercut!!!