Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

[Chris Nagel]

Training tips:

Shadow boxing is entirely about developing technique and the mental aspects of the game. The mirror lets you see and correct your flaws. Then get in the ring and fight three rounds against an imaginary opponent and really work. ALL of the old-time trainers said that, if you could only do one exercise, shadow-box.

You know, so many guys train so much that they neglect the most important part of the body: the brain. I know what you are talking about- guys that hit the bag, do the same combination over and over again, then stand and wait after they punch. They don't realize that you build habits that way. You always have to envision an opponent throwing punches back at you.

I saw this guy in Phoenix back in 04 that really caught my attention. He probably weighed 112 or 115 and he was kind of tall, working the heavy bag. He was watching himself real close in the mirror and working on a series of moves. He'd do them one at a time dissecting them until he was satisfied. Then he spent a couple rounds stringing these moves together, with head feints to get in, stepping around the bag, the whole shot. He really knew how to get the most out of a bag.

Well, you can't be thinking that you'll land all three and he'll stand there and take it Just for fun let's run through a couple of scenarios you might work through.

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver. To get out, get your right glove behind his left elbow and turn him to your left while you step out to your right.

Or, you jab then feint the jab to draw his jab. When he jabs you slip inside it with a short straight right to the heart, then weave to the outside while hooking his body with your left. From the outside you straighten and cross your right to his head and follow with a left hook.

See the idea? You always work your way in and out, always imagining a response from a guy trying to win. Don't just stand there and punch.

We use the double end bag to get a similar mental excercise,every time you hit it its moving,now if you force yourself to move and circle it...........

That's a good way to use the double end bag. Control its movement with your movement and jab and always hit it while its coming towards you.

[Chris Nagel]

The low left hand:

Many- I would venture to say most- of boxing's great defensive fighters fought with a low left hand and in terms of "proper" technical boxing using the shoulder to defend against the right hand is the superior technique as it provides better counter-punchingopportunities and it leaves both hands free to counter. Also there is less damage done tan there is when putting one's left glove against one's head and blocking the right. The idea is to avoid or to deflect as much impact as is possible.
If you watch tpe of Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Walcott, Charles, even James Toney they jab from the hip and it is anything but a light flicking punch. Eddie Futch was discussing the great Holman Williams in an interview and made reference to his rising jab, which hedescribed as a sort of "back handed uppercut." Tape of the fighters that utilized this punch will show that while the left was low they carried their chins well behind the left houlder, fought out of a semi-crouch and had their left hip and shoulder so far forward- towards their opponent- as to be almost sideways.
This makes one very hard to hit with right hands, and makes an opponent walk around and into your right hand if he tries to land his hook. The 'rising jab' comes into play as the opponent jabs; either slip or parry so that his jab goes over your left shoulder, stepping in with the left foot by slightly pushing off the right. The left glove, the left arm straight, comes straight u7p from the hip, timed to meet the foe's cin as he steps in behind the jab you made him miss. This is a very jolting blow, and over time causes considerable damage.
I would also argue that , if done in the manner described above it makes one less vulnerable to right hands, due to the stance and the crouch. In fact it lends itself to drawing and countering the right with a return right to head or body.

[Chris Nagel]

More Advice:

When you take up boxing its very easy to get worked up and anxious, picture yourself knocking opponents around like Popeye did Bluto. But flexibility trumps big muscles more often than not; today we are infested with a bunch of bodybuilders trained for show not go, but if look at film/pictures of the truly great ones they look like strong wellconditioned athletes but you rarely see a muscle defined until that instant before contact. Also keep in mind that the ultimate objective is to not get hit and to hit. Some people reverse that saying but trust me don't get hit then hit. Keep this in minsd; as you develope as a boxer your strengths and weaknesses and your mindset will come to define your style. Whether you end up swarming forward madly, scurrying and floating jabs, whatever, ALWAYS BE A COUNTERPUNCHER. The best were all counter punchers, even the pressure fighters. You come forward in such a way as to draw a particular response- a jab, a right- that you can slip to get close or land a blow to the opening it provides. I tend to be longwinded and in a hurry and lose my train of thought , but I really hope that that last bit made sense to you? If not feel free to get at me and I'll try again.

An oldie, to be sure, but an interesting one to drunks on Friday nights To do this combo properly you need to begin in a proper stance; feet under your shoulders , left leg rotated inward , left foot flat, right heel up @ 2" As you jab push off of your right foot, drive the jab arm into complete extension, remembering to bring your right foot up with you, throwing the right as it arrives. Your weight should be over your left leg. Take this opportunity to slide your right foot @ 11/2" to the right, drpping it flat as your weight shifts back and you torque your body back to the right, throwing the hook. Changing the weight on your feet will really help your balance.

[Chris Nagel]

Right hand counter:

Here is a very very simple way to shorten the arms of an opponent with long arms and a busy jab; the funny thing is that it is THE natural counter in boxing and very difficult for him to counter.
Here is the premise: the motion you make to slip his jab so that it passes over your right shoulder- slipping it to the "inside" position- is the exact same motion as you make to throw a straight hand. He jabs, you step slightly forward and left with your left foot shifting the wt to your left leg, etc...Your step far enough to drop your body low enough so that you are able to drive a straight right to his heart; in the early days of boxing this was a legitimate ko punch and still would be were the average "modern" fighter schooled well enough to throw it. Throw this punch and come back with a left uppercut or weave outside with a hook to the body or chin. However you do it this punch will discourage his jab in short order.

A straight right to the heart is the "natural" counter to a left jab. It works wonders to "shorten" an opponent's left arm, really discouraging him from using that punch. Very simple to execute, as well, because in essence all you are doing is throwing a straight right hand: when you put your weight on the left foot (slide it forward and left a bit if you choose-how much depends on what you intend to do next) and turn your hips and shoulders it should lower your body enough to let the jab go by.

A parry is nothing at all like the Karate Kid. Based on timing- entirely on timing-it is always a minimal movement, often a flick of the wrist. Never reach out to parry- let the punch come to you. Buddy McGirt used to parry a lot and Julio Caesar Chavez used to parry a ton of right hands with his left glove. James Toney, at 168 and 175 especially, used to parry jabs over his left shoulder then bring his jab up and under while pushing forward off his right foot. He scored a knockdown in the 2nd Hembrick fight in this manner.

[Chris Nagel]

Counterpunching:

any series of punches is to be considered one block of movement and in this way there are often numerous ways to counter him as he transitions from movement to movement.

however, youre worst problem is randomness -- the natural enemy of the counterpuncher. when he randomizes his punches you sink into confusion as he becomes so unpredictable you cant never plan the proper counter to throw. at the bottom of this is your inability to control the tempo of the bout. to do this you got to understand the concept of coercion and persuasion. all strategy from boxing to machiavellian political thought is based on this principle. you see youre opponent is constantly prioritizing in his mind what he should do, what he should not do, how he should do it, when should he do it, why should he do it; all of which based on the information you show him. to demonstrate this effect you need only to look at the example you gave in your post:

"I find its alot easier when countering single shots i.e. the jab but when the opponent throws two or three punches in quick succession i find myself always trading with them."


by succefully countering his jab as you say you have, you must realize that your opponent takes in this information in the form of, "geez this guy keeps nailing me when i jab, i need to stop doing whatever it is that keeps getitn me hit with that counterpunch, i better stop and try something else"

this is the universal effect of counterpunching i.e coercion. by way of penalizing him for certain punches he throws by use of your counterpunch you are forcing him to opt for a different approach because he is getting penalized for his previous efforts. you must understand he isnt just going to keep on doing what it is that allows you to counter him. this manifested itself in the form of your opponent opting now to throw a "1-2" instead of that single jab you penalized him for earlier. realize that you have forced his hand in this option and that it was you that caused him to do this by way of coercion. i stress this greatly because it is important that you understand this fundamental tenet of boxing if you want to be a real counterpuncher as you say.

ok so now that your opponent is throwing this 1-2 of his and you must find a way around it. as noted at the start of this entry, any series of punches is to be considered a single block of movements. in this case you cannot simply counter the jab as a right hand is now coming along with it. you must find a way to negate the effectiveness of the right hand. to do this you may simply use your counters for the right hand creating for yet another coearcion effect if not knocking him out completely, block it with your shoulder so that it is useless of him to throw it, or circle away from it so that it never lands. the key idea to take from this is that you are telling him "hey, dont you see youre right hand isnt being productive for you?" in which case he must yet again choose something else to do as you are penalizing him for his efforts. when you say that you trade with him as he throws his random shots at you, you are failing to implement the effect of coercion and thusly you fail to control the bout. no matter what he does (throw a 1-2 or any random string of punches) you must be able to establish the effect of coercion, realizing that he only ever does what you let him by way of this principle.


i really do wish i could go in greater detial for you here (i didnt even touch on the effect of persuasion b/k/a the act of drawing punches, or what happens when you meet somebody smart enough to draw/trigger your counterpunches and then use them to counterpunch you) but to do this i would have to exapand this post into what would be a 7 page essay. i hope that you grasp the core idea though.

[Chris Nagel]

Gloves:

I don't like any glove larger than 8 oz. Any larger and you begin to stray from a real fighting experience and you develop your fighting style based on those experiences. But I can see why people wouldnt want to use realistic gloves for something like day to day sparring. Even though you would learn more from one day of realistic fighting than you would from a whole year of a inaccurate simulation. Your defense would improve for one thing.


I myself hate the feel of a big glove and I don't see how anybody can stand them. Some of them (I guess many of them) won't even allow you to make a closed fist or at least not with great effort first. They end up not only weighing down your arms but they also force you to clench the muscles in your forearm and wrist tightly just to make a fist. You have tense up your arm just to punch and because of that you tighten your arm up and you slow yourself down. This also makes your movements stiff.

One way around that is to take some tape and wrap it around the glove so that the fist area is wrapped down to make a closed fist. This allows the glove to remain closed by default so you don't have to squeeze down hard just to punch. This also reduces some of the bulk which will give you more fluidic movement and reduce the feeling of being weighed down by large objects on your hands.

Or you could be even slicker than me and stitch down the finger tip area to the palm creating a nice clean fist.

You will notice the difference immediately.

Way back when Ringside first introduced their 12oz bag gloves I bought a pair and they were the best gloves I've ever used. You could make a good tight fist in them and the long wrist cuff gave added support to the wrist. When I wore them out I bought another pair of the same and they were slightly different but still good gloves. Recently I bought a third pair (this being 2 years ago,now) and they are crap. The new and improved attached thumb makes it impossibleto make a fist or to throw a punch properly. Given the odd angles dictated by the claw instead of a fist in the glove, wrist problems became inevitable so I threw them out. At the gym where I worked at the time I experimented with a variety of gloves, tendingtowards the 12oz and above thinking to protect my now sore hands.

I ended up with a pair of Everlast bag gloves, straight off the shelf and I love them because I can make a fist. That is the most vitalthing in keeping your hands sound: make a tight fist. Keeping your wrist straight is technique and strength of wrist and forearm. Do the approriate exercises.

How you wrap your hands matters more than the glove, I think. You want to be sure and do two things with the wrap: support and strengthen the wrist and keep tight the myriad small bones in the hand. Wrapping too much around and across the face of the fist-padding the knuckles- is counterproductive as the more times you cross the palm the less tight a fist you can make. The padding is in the glove and that won't do much good if your hand is only loosely clenched. The wrist band of the glove is no substitute for a good wrap and good technique. Make a tight fist and do the work to stengthen wrist and forearm and you don't need bag gloves; loose hands and wists and the gloves don't matter.

[Chris Nagel]

Training Advice:

To sharpen your wind, run 'rounds'. Say you expect spar 3 rounds: walk a time or two around the track at a good pace to warm up then, using a watch, spend the next 3 minutes as follows: start off jogging at a good pace for 30 or 45 seconds then run for a minute then jog for half a minute then sprint for 30 seconds and finish jogging to 3 minutes.(any variation of the above is fine- you see the point of it all?) Spend one minute walking briskly then three minutes as before but changing the pattwern and the durations. What you are doing is sharpening your wind and enhancing your ability to regain it quickly.
There are a few things that could help you once its 'that time'.

Don't stand around in punching range as that is how you get hit. Stay just out of range and you can ignore a lot of the leather flying about; step in to punch and get backout. If your opponent hits your gloves when he jabs you are in range and need to get away or to begin punching or ducking. Try to move around and jab a bit, get used to the ring at first. Let him lead and get a feel for what he's doing or trying to do, hit the openings his leads create. The whole idea is to enjoy it and that is best accomplished by relaxing and taking your time, not being tight and having to fight for your life.

Also don't forget to breath and I am not kidding. Lots of people-pros included- forget to breath when throwing punches. This is especially true when they get somebody hurt or are involved in a prolonged exchange; punching one's self out is the term. It is especially true among guys in the ring for the first time- the tension gets them. Breath.

Getting hit sucks but that only makes a successfuldefensive move that much sweeter. Chin down, elbows in and don't stand around in punching range. You'll do alright.

[Chris Nagel]

The Jab:

The jab is a punch that is the product of not being tense. You must be loose, as in your muscles should be not tight, and the technique of the punch is very important. Exercises such as shadow boxing with hand weights should be under taken with care- for example do not snap out straight punches with hand weights as it is deleterious to your shoulders.
Try "catching the fly" with your left hand. Shoot it out lke you are trying to snatch $ out of somebody's hand. Learn to time the movemment of your left hand with the movement of your left foot.

Sparring:

Maybe you are trying to do too much in the ring. Everybody wants to step in and hit and not get hit before landing the huge shot that kos the other guy. But the reality of the game is something different. Also consider that sparring is a work session, a training session, and not an over all assessment or summary of your skills. The simple fact is that your will not be able to fully exert yourself offensively until you are comfortable defensively. You'll be punching from too far away, without setting your feet, pulling your head back and so on. Boxing is a game of pieces and to be effective all the pieces must come together.
You want to develope certain skills in the ring and this is done by sparring; never get in the ring without a purpose. Today work on your defense and countering with the jab. Do the same thing every day until you get it right. Then work on the hook...I digress into my left handed daydreams...The point is this. Focus on something each and every day in the gym and in the ring. Practice is the key and sense of purpose frees the mind in the sense that if you know what you are working on it will come easier. Over time you work on each and every thing to the extent that it all becomes automatic.

Boxing advice:

Congratulations on your first time: CC
Don't be afraid to not be in a fight all the time you are in the ring; choose the time, place and nature of the exchanges. Pay a LOT of attention to your feet in the next several weeks, and make sure to get your left hip and shoulder turned towards your foe; this will help you avoid many right handed punches.
Here is one last thing to consider: tension exhausts you no matter the level of your conditioning. If you are square to your opponent and thus vulnerable to nearly every punch and holding your hands unnaturally high to guard yourself you will suffer in two ways. First your arms will get tired. Second you will not be able to punch back effectively. Don't be afraid to lower your left to @ shoulder height and to use your left shoulder defensively ala Mayweather, Toney etc...It is actually the most natural way to do it and not some boxing magic. Drop weight to your right foot, turning back over a straight right leg pivoting the left foot inward and going up on the toe to raise the left shoulder. This will intercept the punch and put you in a perfect spot to counter.
Let them lead make them miss and Good Luck

Train for boxing:

Nothing is out of the question if the dedication is there. But the best thing to do is drop all the cross training time waste nonsense and train to box. Being in fighting shape is a different mtter than being in great shape to do anything else. Also, don't be afraid to 'train' yourself; watch tape of great fighters as often as you can because your eyes won't mislead you nearly as badly as many of the people you are apt to encounter 'training' amateur boxers.

Conditioning/Weight-Loss:

Here's a few thoughts for you on losing weight, conditioning and so on.
1) For road work try to fit in a very brisk walk of 2-3 miles in the morning, taking time to stop and stretch frequently. In the evenings, after work/school/boxing/etc fit in a 15 minute or so roadwork session, working 3 minute rounds with 1 minute between. During the "round" spend a minute each on sprinting, running, and jogging and vary the order from round to round. Walk as fast as you can during the one minute 'rest'
2) Do your sit-ups and other calisthenic (spellin g?) exercise religiously; this should be @ a 20 minute session either just before or just after your morning walk. What you want to gain here is flexibility.
3) In the gym shadow box to warm up and really work at it, imagining a real fight with a real foe. Don't jump rope on night that you run or on night that you spar. As you practice to perfect each punch also practice and master the basic blocks for that same punch. Between shadowboxing, hitting the heavy and double end bags your workout at the gym should lat @ 35 minutes; put in another two or three rounds for working the punch mitts or whatever but an hour of solid, dedicatwed and sharp work is plenty.
4) Please please please do not let Butterbean be your idol or your stylistic inspiration. He is probably a very nice man, loves kids and puppies and all that but he cannot fight a lick. Learn the "art" of boxing, how to get your left hip and shoulder ahead of your chin and how to avoid punche..etc...
5) Last, look to spar within the first 60 days max. The best way to get in shape to box, or to learn how to box is actually to box as often as possible. Sparring session in which both fighters only jab are helpful as are rounds where both cocentrate on defense and left hand counters for example.

Training before joining a gym:

Try waking up in the morning and doing 20 minutes of stretching exercises, situps and so on. If possible follow up with a 20 miute or so walk an walk very rapidly- before breakfast. Three times a week get to a place where you can do some road work: start with 3-4 3min. rounds, alternating jogging, running and all out sprinting during the round and walking very fast during the rest. In the gym warm up with a couple rounds of fast and serious shadowboxing, then 3 rounds on the heavy bag, 3 on the double end bag and acouiple on the speedbag.
I would suggest that you begin the exercising and roadwork a week or two before goin g to the gym. Once there you shoud be ready for some light sparring in @ 3-4 weeks maximum,

Joe's Training Method:

My personal method was to train daily, to run 3 times a week. When I got older my routine was to spend 4 evenings a week 3-4 hours nightly, training others, then do my deal after. That was about 40 minutes or so and I did it 7 days a week. But my routine was probably much different than what is typical among those on this forum; it was rarely more than 45 minutes and it was divided between shadow-boxing, heavy-bag, speed bag etc...I began each day with 20 minutes or so of stretching exercises, and calisthenics.
I don't know specifically what you are training to achieve, or what your regimen (spelling?) involves, and in general, after what I've read here, I think many ofyou are training too much. To train to box a brisk hour, working sharp, 5 days a week is plenty. That doesn't include roadwork but 3-4 miles 3 times per week is good and you can sharpen up for a match in a couple weeks by running "rounds"

[Chris Nagel]

About Discouragement:

Getting discouraged is almost daily in boxing; she is a demanding jealous bitch and it can never be good enough to please. But it is something worthwhile and special to even have the courage and the opportuinity to try; I am sure that a vast majority on this site know what I mean, There are boxers and there are humans, and damn are they missing out!

Every day in the gym has its bits and pieces of diappointment- if you are very attuned to it, every critical and demanding, there will always be something, even on those red-letter days that you feel as if you could fly. You can always come back tomorrow and try again, unless of course you come to realize that it just ain't your true calling; this isn't for everyone and there are precious few Robinsons out there. But if/when you hang 'em up you still tried- you had to be budgeoned out of what most fear to even try.

Now, back in the days of fairly old yore, I suffered a pretty good hernia and a back injury. I was sore a few days but generally ignored it and went on with things. That was easy to do then because I was in shape- 6'3", walking around @183- ad pain goes away. Ten years or so down the road and I can't hit the bags much; my left shoulder ain't what it was, the back aches and the hernia don't help. So by now- a couple weeks ago I can barely move, I'm sore and stiff all the time. A friend gets on me about it and you know how when that spirit rises up... He gets me doing a variety of stretching exercises and I feel great . The only day I've felt bad since then was when when we didn't exercise. Doing pushups- building some strength back in the shoulder- and another day or two and 'll be hitting my chinups unassisted, even if it is onlya couple of them. . It'll take longer than before to get my punches sharp but it'll come...

The whole point of this being don't let discouragement throttle you until it becomes depression and takes your wind. If what happened in the gym ain't as you had hoped, why? Start there then fixit then fight it. Because it isn't about winning its about the fight, my friends

[Chris Nagel]

From a pm with Thomas Tabin:

Hey Chris hows it going. Thats actually a very important question you bring up because the same way you watch a fight is similar to the way you watch your opponent in the ring. Ultimately, every fighter, no matter his style, is using some kind of strategy. Its up to you, the fighter, to figure it out.

When watching a fight, start by trying to break down what one guy is doing.

Note the way he he jabs: is it quick, is he stepping in with it - and if so how much, is he throwing it often; what is he trying to accomplish by jabbing, is he trying to counter with it, is he only initiating with jabs, is he jabbing to set up the right hand or other punches? And what about the other punches? how does he throw the hook? The right hand? When, and why is doing it?

Also note how he deals with his opponent's punches: what does he do to avoid the jab, does he slip it, parry it, counter it? If so with what counter? How about other things like does he follow when his opponent steps back? Does he step back when his opponent comes forward?

The point I'm trying to drive home is that every fighter is using some kind of plan or strategy when they fight. If you can figure out what he is trying to do you can therefore start to see patterns in his style. The more and more you understand about a fighter, the more you will know his strengths and weaknesses, and therefore, the better you will be at fighting him.

So using the Whitaker/Chavez fight as an example, you would start by watching the way one of them fights. You will start to see patterns in what they are doing and will start to be able to predict what they will do when certain scenarios occur. Ironically, In watching just one fighter you can get a feel for the other one since both interact with each other and its impossible to get a feel for one without getting a feel for the other (fighter A has to react to the punches fighter B throws, fighter B has to react to the punches fighter A throws)

In his book, Jack Dempsey says to watch what is happening in the middle. That is, that area between he two fighters. This is a decent way to watch fights but I've personally found that it makes me somewhat confused, as I find myself watching so much at one time that I get lost. Also keep in mind that by watching just one fighter, you're using the same mechanism in your brain as you would use in a real fight (in a real fight you're always watching just your opponent and not the both of you at the same time). Therefore I would say that by just watching one fighter at a time you achieve a feeling that is more realistic and is actually something like a mental xercise.

Here is the most important part though:

when you watch a fighter (Monzon, Hagler, Marciano, Tarver -- anybody) try to get a feel f how they fight and then ask yourself how you would fight them. How would you avoid their strengths while at the same time exploiting their weaknesses? This too, is something that you use in the ring be it in sparring or in a real fight. In order to be a great fighter, you will need to know how to assess a fighter and pinpoint their weaknesses. At the end of the day, this is work that is done by the brain, and therefore, can only be exercise by visualizing opponents while shadowboxing and watching tapes as though you were in that ring with him.