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Thread: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

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    Default Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Even though we have a section for important and useful posts, I still constantly find myself going through the "Ask the Trainer" back pages looking up everything from punching technique to any particular vein of knowledge.

    Many valueble posts by two of our respected members, Grey and Thomas Tabin are scattered through out countless threads which makes it difficult for someone to find what they are looking for.

    So instead of moving several dozen threads to this section, I've decided that if I find something interesting by Grey or Thomas that's not already on this board, I'll move it to this thread for quick reference.

    So please forgive my terrible taste for a gimmicky topic name and enjoy this growing collection of posts. If you find an interesting post by either Grey or Thomas, you're welcome to post it here.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Stance and Punching Technique
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    It sounds to me like you are punching too much with your arms. Punching technique is vitally important and would take pages to explain in detail, but let me try a thumbnail version:

    While in your basic stance imagine picture an axis creating a center line through your body from each direction. When punching your hips must precede your shoulders through the center lines; your shoulders must precede your fist. This is accomplished by shifting weight from one foot to the other, and pivoting on the newly weightless toe.

    Try these couple tricks. First I am sure you've seen in movies a boxer pawing his nose with his right thumb. There is a reason behind that; from your basic stance throw a straight right, begin with your thumb alongside your nose. Put your weight onto your left leg (kept straight, knee not locked) pivot your right toe sharply inward- this will turn your hips through center. They in turn will turn your shoulders. Keep contact with your nose (the thumb of your right glove alongside it) until in your peripheral vision you see your right shoulder passing your right eye.

    For another stand close to the heavy bag, your feet under your shoulders left flat, right heel up a couple inches, arms bent 90degrees, elbows resting on your hips. Drop your right fot flat pivot on left toe to torque your hips and let them drive your fist into the bag. Then drop your left foot flat, pivot on your right toe to drive the right fist Keep doing this, starting slow and building speed. Concentrate on that weight shift and realize it must be done every single time. Finally, find yourself some pint cans and stand on them while some one holds the mitts for you. Punch- throw combination. If you don't punch properly you'll fall off. If done properly you won't; a 12yr old I once trained could do three rounds easy on the cans and he could knock you silly with any punch from any angle because it taught him leverage.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    More on the problem with blocking punches
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    The big problem with the ear-muff defense is that ensures that you will continue to take punches. Think about it for a second: you put both hands up against your head and either put your weight on your front foot or lay on the ropes. Your opponent is now free to whale away with impunity because you cannot punch back from that position. When he finishes- gets tired of- punching he can step back, take a breath and start again. See the Calzaghe/Lacy fight.

    While on the subject of defense, let me address my pet peeve of the moment. That would be the "high and tight" position of the left hand as a defense against the right hand. You cannot throw a jab from there, not a proper left jab. What you can do is 'drop' your jab (as opposed to properly throwing it from the shoulder), at which point you get hit with a right. Also, keeping your hand and arm in that position requires muscular tension- especially if you have some guy yelling to keep it up there "strong", to block a punch- and this in short order will cause you to tire, drop your hands and get hit with a right hand. Last, you then have your vision blocked by your own left glove so you can't see the right hand coming, and isn't the punch you don't see the one that KO's you?

    These days, using the left shoulder to block the right hand is treated like some type of magical thing that only some special boxers can do, that you have to climb some mountain to learn. It used to be the very first thing you learned about avoiding the right hand. Back when universities had boxing teams many of them published instructional books and you can still find them, and see if I'm right about that. Watch old fights. Nobody walked around the ring with their hands over their eyes.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Warning: Crazy man's Rant
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    Quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    Okay. Never heard the term before but I'm familiar with the concept. It is very effective against right hands of any and every sort, and the right hand should thus be freed up to block the left hook with the glove,and the hook to the body with the right forearm/elbow. And, of course, the left arm if the dfender is willing to leave himself with no hand to counter with. That used to be much more a universal defense than it is now. I never could figure out how in the world it became unfashionable to teach rolling with punches and using the shoulders.


    nah that aint what they mean by that. you know, that move where one squares up and holds one arm over the body and the other arm in front the face so that the shoulder blocks the left hook to the head. i always knew that as the cross arm myself not sure about the other term.


    *note: i should probably warn anyone that reads this that a crazy man rant is shortly on the way here...


    you know its funny you say that about the non squared up shoulder block style in your post. my personal take on why we dont see that anymore i think can be traced back to the introduction of the 15 round limit or as i like to say the start of the end. that spawned a new way to win in our sport: points. to think that boxers should now be able to win on points and not by the real way, the knockout way, is to me beyond foolish. in the old way a bout was never over until one man could not continue so one may have been beat to an inch of his life but even then there was no winner or loser until somebody was out. then suddenly you have bird brain panelists and a points system that took what the entire sport was based on and threw it out of a window then left it for dead. the sport had become entirely different and as a result the styles and ways that saw play in the pre 15 round era slowly lost use as the new points-win-boxers adapted to the 15 round system and displaced the old timers. you can even see boxers slow out of the old styles (like the shoulder block) over the years as clear as day. i think the first time we started to see more and more boxers squared up with both hands up on the temples was in i think the 50's or towards the end of the 40's at least. for such a weak style like this to even exist in numbers like it did truly marked the end of boxing as we knew it. you see a style like that would be fast weeded out had the boxers of that time not been such dolts. but as you can see this style soon took over completely and sunk the sport even further down the drain. so bad is this today that you wouldnt see a boxer of this era set up a punch if you let him have a 15 minute head start. the amateur ranks make me blue in the face and dont even mention the pro boxers to me. i ultimately blame the introduction of the 15 round points sytem. for this reason id be cold dead in the dirt before you ever see me score a round on tv -- i refuse. to sum up the demise of a sport i love so much has left a sour taste in my mouth and now i need a smoke. see you around people.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Tips and Advice
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    I have problems breathing and my nose is kind of odd-shaped and it is all related to not seeing hooks, left hooks, coming. The right hook starts from so far away that its generally visible but that left hook will sneak up on you. I think that there are three solid ways to avoid left hooks, even if you don't see them coming.

    First and foremost is to stay out of range unless you are working. Second, when in range, keep your right hand at home, ready to block that hook. Third, and this is the best advice I can give and I don't know if I can explain it properly.

    See, a human can only throw one punch at a time. Can't throw the left while the right is still out, and the opposite is true as well. You anticipate...if he throws a right you expect a hook behind it. The glove should be up, and you turn in putting the weight on your left leg. This turns you inside his hook and puts you in place to counter with your own.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    In regarding the shoulder roll, and the stance required to do it right:

    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by that term... I assume you mean the left low, right high, roll the shoulder defense made popular by Toney and Mayweather?
    Look, this is not rocket science. Back in the day, EVERYBODY did it that way. Check the old college boxing manuals-they did it that way in the 1940s and 1950s.
    Do not ever reach out with your right hand to parry or block punches. Angle your left foot so you are not squared up- turn your left hip. You cannot roll your shoulder if you are squared up.
    The hardest parts are picking off body blows with your left arm and catching the left hook.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

    But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

    I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    As a teacher...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw View Post
    I'm often told I am a trainer's nightmare, I switch stances all the time, forget to keep my chin behind my jab and when I try to box how I am told to, I feel uncomfortable and out of control. Should I box my way or just keep working the way people keep telling me to
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    As a teacher, I make a point to explain the hows and whys of everything I try to teach. I don't expect anybody to take my word for anything that I cannot explain the reasoning behind. At the same time, I tolerate no argument. Ask me questions- I'll give you answers. Tell me if something doesn't feel right. We'll work on it. Everybody is fallible and everyfighter is different. It is not impossible that I've made a mistake in my approach to a specific individual.
    But don't argue with me. Now time for that.
    Now, in your situation, consider this. He knows more than you do. That is why you went to him to teach you. If you want to learn, listen. If you want to get hurt, keep your chin up, keep crossing your feet and so on. That is the difference between a "boxer" and somebody that thinks they can fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    hey grey i know that kid that loves to argue and wont hear you out for even a second pretty good. i used to be that kid once. i always thought i knew more than the trainers. i think the thing to do with a kid like that is to sit down and show them some tapes. this is so they can see for themselves with there own two eyes whats what. show them some tapes of joe louis knocking people out left and right and lets see them argue with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Me, too. The best kid I ever trained could never understand the value of going any direction but forward. Until he saw McGirt, Ricardo Lopez, among others.
    I'm not always right and I am not unwilling to admit it: over time you find a better way of doing things than you had before...But in the gym I will not sit there and debate what I am trying to convey. The next step is after gym time, then it becomes "sit down and look at great fighters proving what I am teaching." (is that convoluted as hell or what?)\
    I don't expect anyone to belive on faith what I am selling- their life is at stake. You always have to prove it, but there is a time and place for everything.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Take your destiny into your own hands:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Most trainers just don't care. Paint it however you like but if a fellow comes into a gym and paid good money to do it he wants to learn how to box not just dick around on the floor. If a trainer doesn't pick up on that then he is either too lazy or just doesn't care about you. The end result is a very disorganized gym that is more like a hangout spot than it is anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    yeah that cold shoulder trainers hand out is no good at all. used to happen to me and i think alot of us have experienced it and that really is a shame. the only way around this is to take control over your development as a boxer. you got to learn on your own and i know that sounds hard but believe me, such a thing is very much within your reach. forget being some dependant sap sitting on the sidelines, those bum trainers wont care about you even though you know in your heart youre willing to learn and follow your dreams. its time you start watching every tape you can find and really study the thing, you know slow motion and all. when motion picture was first introduced, its advantage for the pugilist did not go unoticed, i think fighters like smcheling and tunney would routinely study tapes. nothing teaches a fighter how to fight like tapes -- its like virtual reality sparring; you get a chance to learn from the mistakes of others and also get a glimpse at what makes them effective in the ring. coming up, i always considered those that came before me to be my real trainers and why not? archie moore taught me things just by watching him i could never have learned from some of the people i was around. anyway you want to apply what you pick up to your bag work and in your sparring, soon through trial and error you will begin to flesh yourself out as a true craftsman. then the trainers have to recognize you and a nameless slouch (at least to them) you'll be no more. my point is, you need to take your destiny into your own hands dont ever let somebody else be in complete control over it. its up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Go back and re-read what Thomas wrote,then double it for me. He said it exactly as I'd have said it.
    I have seen it happen so many times in gyms that it is sickening; some young guy (or girl, these days) comes into a gym full of enthusiasm; you very rarely wander into a boxing gym unless you meant to be there. These prospects come every night and jump rope and do situps and hit the bags and work hard. But they are doing everything wrong and nobody tells them anything to help them and they don't know. Eventually they get to spar and it never goes right: not that they all get pounded, but the little mistakes they make all the time keep them from being involved in the sparring. Nobody tells them what went wrong, so they try harder and next time its worse. Next thing that kid full of promise shows up only 2,3 times a week and is clowning, then you don't see them anymore.
    It is really unfair because too often it isn't talent or desire or work ethic that determines champions. It very often could be a lazy or overworked or less than honest trainer who ignores some kid, can't make timwe or keeps him around for target practice for "better" boxers. Thomas is 100% correct; make the effort invest the time and don't be afraid to teach yourself
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    On Training:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    You have to know your body. What pace do you fight at? Are you very tensed when you fight or is your body relaxed? You have to know what youre trying to accomplish strategically because thats what you will be asking your body to do for you. Try to get a guage of this because you want to get your body just right to accomplish what it needs to without over or under training. Over training is a pretty big problem and just as bad as not doing enough. The point is that you shouldnt just train just for the sake of training. Train smart.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    A constantly moving head not only can be timed, but it also wastes your energy and clutters your mind making it harder for you to think because of those frantic movements your being busy with. This is bad because over time it slows your reaction time and ability to think on your feet; all that frantic motion. How soon then before you start eating punches you shouldn't even be eating in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the things i see is most fighters will waste so much energy when fighting. i see all kinds of slipping punches that arent even there and wiggling of the arms, randomly bouncing around the ring: this kind of thing does have a price and you will start to feel it sooner or later no matter how conditioned you are. look at joe louis and notice how much energy he wastes. the answer is none. people like to say he moves around like a stiff zombie but he really is just being economical. in this way, joe could probably box 70 rounds straight since he is so smooth out there.[/font]

    my point is, the style in which you guys box with these days is the cause of your stamina problems. your style uses up so much energy in order to pull off that you absolutely have to excerise like a triathlete. i tend to just stand in front of my opponent, not bouncing, not shaking, selecting my punches and specfic defensive reactions carefully. sure i look boring (thats what im told) but i can go longer than most and think with more clarity since im not occupying my mind with all kinds of crazy movements for my body.[/font]
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    Once again Thomas is right on the money: if you take the time to read up on and study the old-time greats and how they fought and, more important, how they thought, you'll learn that efficiency in motion was a prime consideration. You only slip punches that are thrown and then only when you intend to do something. You throw punches to land them and any judge that gives credit for punches thrown and missed is a detriment to the sport. [/font]


    Watching Fights:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    well i honestly think watching tapes are essential to the development of any fighter. for one they bascially plug boxing directly into your brain by way of seeing how things happen in the ring, what fighters tend to do, what fighters tend to excel at, and when (and how) they make mistakes. this sort of thing is invaluble; learning the logistics of boxing, as often and as much as you can.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post

    if i may be allowed to give a little promoting here (my check arrived in the mail) go back and read grey's posts on the matter of boxing. nobody has the logistics of boxing down quite as well or presents them in an understandable manner. i myself try but i go off on a bunch of theory type stuff. check his forum out.
    [quote=ThomasTabin;42466]mostly i would learn from every tape and every silent film i saw and not from any one boxer. the mystery of the sport is hidden inside every bout you see from leonard dorin to barney ross. you must look closely.[/quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post

    but i am reminded now of the time when as a boy i met the profoundest chess player that there was around my way. whenever i would play him he would violently tear me to shreds with an ominous kind of calm that i had only seen at the end of old west shoot out movies. he was sharp. even in times that i had captured more of his material and was (at least i assumed so) in the seat of power - maybe a rook here, a few pawns there, perhaps even his queen - he would out of nowhere swoop down like a deadly hawk and defeat me every time without fail. for a while i used to think he was some kinda cheat -- i mean how does he suddenly beat me as easy as he does even when i would seem to be ahead -- but the man was no cheat, he was simply that sharp. i only played him a few times and never saw him after those bombardments but the questions of how he did this to me would spin around in my mind for years. i would later come to find that in truth every move that i would make was not made by me but instead by him. yes i would take my bishops or whatever and move them around myself but only ever because he would draw me out to do so. he would leave open say a rook for me to take from him (and i would like a dummy) or put a bishop in the line of my queen to make me move around my pawns in front to make her safe (and i would like a dummy) and by way of this he would deliberately manipulate my distribution of material to ultimately make a defensive lapse for that one final blow. every move i made was shepherded by his invisible hand and he would walk me into invisible traps i had no idea were even there. this lesson i would translate to boxing but also for the many other facets of life. because truly life is like boxing and boxing is truly like chess. this i think is the real prize to take from the sport, not the fame or money, but the revelation of strategy.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    [quote=ThomasTabin;35889]at the gym was always just another day at the office. once you grow out of that romantic phase (we all do) in boxing you either 1. start to view this as an occupation like any other -- as tony zale as cool as ever once said when asked of his name and profession at a navy boot camp, "anothony zaleski; pugilist, middleweight" -- or 2. you simply come to your senses, quit boxing and join the real world. eventually we all make 1 of the 2 choices.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    boxing is a good thing. kids start it up because they have some grand romantic like notions of what they think boxing is and only then ever continue to do it once they realize and embrace how far from reality that idea is - either that or quit. most get out of it because they never had the idea of a good work ethic and discipline with them to begin with. at an age ilke 5, he is probably still in that romantic stage so you want to just be sure you learn him on the value of discipline and work ethic. that i think is the most important thing to take from boxing, more important than anything else. its a good time to get those things in him before he gets to an age where so many of us lacked it and needed it most.[/font]
    [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    fear is a natural thing. when you first start to box youre full of it; youre not sure what youre really even doing, the guy keeps tagging you on the beak and just how the hell are you supposed to stop that seems to be completely out of your reach. each round passes by like a whirlwind of confusion where you cant tell up from down. anyway the main point here is that all of your fear and anxiety comes directly from your confusion which ultimately comes from your inexperience. hopefully after some time in boxing you will have learned that you are the one who is in total control over what happens to you in the ring -- not your opponent. that is, you only ever get hit when you made a mistake. understanding things in this manner, you box with the idea in mind to never make mistakes which removes the elemnt of being in a street brawl for your life and replaces it with a mind set that all the greats utalize, that of putting together a puzzle. whens the last time you ever got scared putting together a puzzle?


    Stance:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharla
    [/font]
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharla [SIZE=2
    ][/SIZE]
    I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

    Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

    Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?
    sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    the moves themselves are meaningless. it takes a complete and absolute knowledge to apply them properly, just knowing what the moves are themselves wont actually do anything. the moves mostly posted here are only what happens on the surface; you may know many things but if you lack the wisdom underneath those many things to link them all together, in the end, you know nothing at all. the boxing world is rich with people like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post

    its like a freind of mine would say about it, "smart dumb motherfuckers"
    [quote=ThomasTabin;12248]you could hit with all the force in the world but it would all just be a big waste unless you can actually land the thing. say you have a good punch, maybe even downright great punch, if you find yourself unable to get it into it's target or if your opponent saw it coming -- in effect allowing him to brace himself for the impact, if not simply rolling away from it -- your punches are all bark no bite. sure you might look scary on a heavy bag, but a bag is not hardly the same thing as a thinking and adapting opponent. its all about getting the punch home and with that power follows naturally as a result.[/quote]

    Defense:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    lots of people are scared to break a nose and to that i say, benny leonard had 212 bouts and a nose that stuck out like a sun dial but one look at the man and you see not one bend or twist on that sucker. in 212 bouts not one man could hammer that monument of a nose on his face. the moral of the story is: defense, defense, defense

    Quality over Quantity:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
    i had this thing for a while called...uh, shin splints i think was the term. it lasted a few months, had to go see a doctor and everything. the problem was all the roadowrk i had been doing, something to the tune of 6 miles or so on that hard concrete and not to mention the old beat up chuck taylors that certaintly seen prouder days i was running in. my main problem was that i would "work through the pain" which seemed real rocky balboa of me at the time but this kind of mentality eventually messed my ankles up so bad i could not even walk without pain. i learned a very good lesson about training as a result -- quality over quanity. anyway the big problem is that when you run you want to make sure youre nice and warmed up first; you need to stretch for a while. next big thing is you want to start off slow to get your legs used to the strain of running. after that just make sure you at least have some good shoes that help to absorb some shock (example: anything but chucks) and you should be set. for the problem you have now: just make sure to ice the area real good and if its very bad take some anti inflamtory pills. all this was straight from the doctors mouth that i went to see.
    Last edited by Chris Nagel; 07-10-2008 at 06:58 PM.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Look for punches:
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap
    Do you think fighters can be trained to take a better punch Physically and Emotionally, Id like to hear your veiws.Plus to what degree.
    i thnk that fighters should be taught to be on the look for punches and to have that as the primary concern while bxing. it sounds obvious but some guys dont do it and if youre not boxing with that 'defense first' mindset it makes you often get caught by suprise with punches that otherwise shouldnt never be landing. this mentality allows you to roll with punches because you see them coming and that in itself (seeing the punch coming) gives you a better chin as youre able to prepare yourself for the blow.

    its my theory that all the guys who supposedly had good chin also had very good eyes in the sense that they saw punches coming.
    You're right, I think that it applies to applies to a lot of guys, Roberto Duran comes to mind. He was especially hard to hit with a clean punch as he was always slipping, twisting and turning with the punches.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    I know that this following quote comes from a thread that is already on this board, but it's so good that I had to include it here:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTabin View Post
    I think whats so interesting about Burley is his upper body movement in combination with his footwork. He moves around the ring, but not so fast that he isn't always set. This means that, through this, he can use the ring while still maintaining an ability to move his upper body. Something you won't see Ray Robinson or Ali doing because they're moving too fast to be set enough to preform these movements.

    Well that makes him infuriatingly hard to hit. Smith misses essentially all of his punches and not only just that, he misses them big. Sometimes by a few feet.

    This is something that is only accomplishble with a stance like Burley's. There are fighters like Ricardo Lopez or Barrera who use the ring and are incredible defensively but are unable to preform the upperbody movement that Burley can. Thus they can't make an opponent miss as badly as Burley can.


    and because of that, they can't make an opponent reach as hard as Burley can.


    Thats because the harder you are to reach the more an opponent will commit into his punches. You can see the way Burley is "pulling" Smith into him. That is something a squared up fighter can never do.

    The general idea behind Burley's strategy and stance seems to me that - and correct me if you see something else - to pull your opponent into you and thus force him to reach with his punches, making him vulnerable.



    There is an episode of The Way We Were with Joe Walcott and Joe Louis. They show on the screen the Knock down Walcott gave Louis in their second fight and Walcott says that he was leaning away knowing that he would pull Louis' jab enough to able to throw his right hand over it.

    Schmeling did the same thing to him.

    Not surprsing that all of these fighters share the same type of stance and, with that, the ability to "pull" fighters into them.
    Recently I was going over some interesting things that I pulled off of the internet which kind of reminded me of Thomas's thoughts:

    Walcott, Bivins said, had a frustrating technique he employed to get you to step forward as he connected with his right. Joe somehow moved his body in a manner that gave the appearance to his opponent that he was starting to back up, when all he was really doing was shifting his weight...Bivins stated that when you would begin to take that initial step forward upon seeing this, Walcott would crack you with the right. It was unexpected, and walking into the punch made it hurt even worse.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    The fear is only in the anticipation. You are afraid now and that is normal, especially in somebody starting late. That's why most fighters start young: kids are stupid and fearless. But even then, and this tends to be real true among guys that act very tough, that fear- knowing on Monday that you spar (or fight) such-and-such on Thursday chases lots of guys out of the gym.
    I never tell anybody not to box so take this in that light: Find a gym that has sparring, even if its a "white-collar" type gym and get in shape. Learn the punches, put your work in, and stand at ringside and watch other guys spar (this is where a "fighting" gym is better- you see it for real). Get close so you get a real feel for it. If that doesn't make you want to get in there and try your hand, then you ain't cut out for this and that's that. No shame in it because it isn't for everybody, and at least you got into condition. But, most likely, after you've put in several weeks on the bags and jumping rope, it'll pull you in and you'll have to give it a try.
    If you do, you'll get it, but you'll have your chances to return the favor, and, at the end of the day, you'll have answered questions about yourself you haven't been able to answer elsewhere. That's worth a couple punches in the mouth and a nosebleed. Any day.
    Good Luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Sadly, there are far too many gymsyou could end up in where there'd be no difference in whether or not you were taken seriously.
    There are many gyms that operate as health-club boxing type gyms for the bulk of the time, to pay the bills. So they would take you seriously- way to seriously for what is an aerobics class.
    To be taken seriously in a "fight" gym you have to be serious; not acting like some movie clown but working during your work out and not just doing the routine. Work hard physically and mentally and you'll be ahead of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    When you are just starting walk a very brisk mile and build from there. A good goal- realistic, doable and sufficient- is a good three mile run three times or four times per week. When preparing for a fight you sharpen your wind. For example you have a 4 round bout upcoming. So you start your timer and alternately run and sprint for 3 minutes. Then walk at a good pace for a minute. Repeat. (i neglected to add "jog"-run, sprint jog -at a reasonable pace)Run four rounds daily.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Start a roadwork program. I've always thought that the long early morning runs are at least as much to instill discipline as anything else. Really three miles is plenty, especially if you walk a lot. Ray Arcel used a program to sharpen the wind which was very similar to this; walk a very brisk half mile, jog a brisk mile, then sprint a half mile, then walk, etc... Work on your technique- especially punching-wise. Box in front of a mirror and make sure your hands are up, that you aren't tipping off your punches, etc.. All the good fighters are counter punchers, even the aggressive types that force the action. The whole idea of it all is this; through your actions to make him throw a particular punch at a particular time so you can counter .
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    In the old days they used to fight lots and lots: A sample from the record of HoF member Fritzie Zivic, from 1938. He fought on the following dates; 1/1, 2/14, 3/7, 3/21, 4/12, 5/29, 6/13, 6/20, 7/9, 7/12, 8/2, 8/12, 8/22, 8/26, ...you get the idea. They learned their trade, got hit less, and didn't come out gunning for the KO every instant. You box, take your time...and get better at boxing. It has ups and downs; personally, I'd fight every day which isn't wise ... Starting out, every 60 days is probably good, gives you time to learn new things between fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold
    Could I earn my way back into good graces with a couple combinations that you might find worthwhile?
    Jack Dempsey made these famous in the 20s, and both are based off of slipping the opponent"s jab. The first is the "inside triple": to begin slip inside the opponent's jab (so it goes over your right shoulder; put weight on left leg , swing right side forward exactly like throwing a right)with a straight right to the heart. Step sideways w/rght foot, bringing it up even w/the left; at the same time shift the weight over the right leg :this step gives you more power, and if you stay low shifting the wght to rght leg will carry you under the left lead and outside of it as you hook to the solar plexus. The body is then straightened , weight shifted to the left leg and cross the right to the opponents chin. The action here has to be fast and continuous, so I would suggest starting slow and feeling the weight shifts because once you find those its easy.
    "Outside Triple"; begin by slipping outside his jab and hooking the left to the stomach ( the way to slip outside is to throw a left hook-this one happens to be a touch wide and to the belly.) Weight should be on the right leg so step in and to the left with the left foot, the weight transfer carrying your body under the lead as you hook the right to the heart. From here straighten the body lifting the left (which should've been carried high to protect you head from his right) (don't need to draw it back or swing your arm , just wght to rght leg torque hips) to his chin. Again the movement must be fast and don't forget to practice getting out after you punch- don't just walk or stop or you'll do it in real.
    ---
    Last edited by Chris Nagel; 07-29-2008 at 01:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    advice
    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    Lets see; yes you could turn pro. You could, tomorrow find somebody some where that would feed you to a lion for a dollar. Bt no, 17 isn't too old to start, though its getting there. Robot-like on your feet? Try pushing with your back foot like in fencing; watch fencers and how they move. Look, you find your stance and it should be where your balance etc is maximized; so keep your feet there no matyter where or when or how far you move. As far as slipping punches...when pracicing always practice with the counter punch otherwise why bother? Also, always move in behind the slip and counter otherwise why bother? When you slip keep one thing in mind; the moves you make are the exact same as a particular punch. Slipping a jab to the inside (over your right shoulder) is throwing a straight right. Over the other shoulder is a left hook. You slip on your feet; you move your head with your feet. Otherwise you will not be able to punch. Twisting and leaning is asinine when you can shift the weight on your feet avoid the punch and counter hard at any point. To the guy that was 5'6" and wanting to get ripped to fight HWs; constantly coming forward, straight into the guns, and having no other choice is a tough row to hoe. You could be an amazing wizard of defense but you will get hit and hurt a lot every fight because you have to constantly press in and stay in range. I read once that Marciano often had to work to get his mind ready to fight and win, knowing that he was going to be walking into a tremendous amount of damage
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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    Default Re: Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

    No Emotion:

    Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
    I read once that the thing that kept Jack Sharkey- whom Ray Arcel called the best pure boxer he'd ever seen at heavyweight- from being a truly great fighter was emotion. He was too emotional, while great fighters operate in the eye of the hurricane. No emotion. I've always been a big believer in this concept.
    The first round is the first stone of what you are trying to build, and I know that sounds very trite. Most, if not all, say to go out and land the first punch. For me, unless there is a big skill difference, I'd almost rather get hit the first punch. Keeps me from getting complacent, but that's just me. In that opening round, early, its good to clinch with your opponent, to feel their strength and to see how interested they are in working inside and how good they might be at it. Catch his jab in your glove to see how hard he's popping his punches. Feint a lot to feel out his reactions to your jab, to the idea of you going to his body, and so on. You don't want to throw punches just to throw them because that lets him see your reach and to begin to time you. You want to be just out of range of his punches so that you don't give away any of your defensive and counter ideas.
    Watch Ricardo Lopez. He was a great 1st round fighter. But the important thing is that emotion has no place in it. You get hit, don't get mad. Figure out why you got hit and what to do about it. Save the hostility for the appropriate time.
    If you hear a voice within you saying that I am not a painter, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.

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