Ever heard of undefeated Heavyweight Malik Scott?

[The Promoter]

Fine Ali was smaller than Earnie Terrell...Joe Louis was smaller than Buddy Baer and Primo Carnera but it doesn't make those guys great. Ali had plenty of skill but the big guys of his era: Terrell, Foreman, and all the other guys you list weren't COMPLETE fighters which is why I state Ali would have trouble with the guys like Lewis, Bowe, and Holyfield. Foreman only learned to box late in his career if he knew that in his prime he would have beaten Ali or at least gone the distance because he wouldn't have gased out


Lennox Lewis was a complete fighter, Riddick Bowe was a complete fighter, and Evander Holyfield was a complete fighter....those guys could punch with power AND box extremely well.

You can't really name ANYONE even Ali that would have an easy time with those guys.

"Foreman only learned to box late in his career" ?!?!? Foreman was a DOMINANT amateur that won an Olympic Gold Medal for chrissake it was only perhaps the greatest fighter of all time that beat him in his prime (and Ali was well beyond his)...As for LL, Riddick Bowe and Evander I would agree that none are an easy fight but my money would certainly be on a prime Ali...I would only add that Wlad WOULD be an easy fight for Ali for a multiple of reasons...

[El Kabong]

Foreman didn't BOX in the amateurs he just brawled....George had only been in boxing for 1 year before he won Gold in Mexico City.....so NO he didn't know how to BOX that was something he had to learn over his pro career and when I say box I mean BOX hit and not get hit, use the jab, and so on.

[El Kabong]

He wasn't Willie Pep in there and he wasn't even Lennox Lewis or Felix Savon....he did what he did in the pros only he didn't hit hard (like he did in the pros) until he trained with Sonny Liston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NABqIWMCvI0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLv-Ye-HHC4


Foreman was just a brute in there....there is no "boxing" only brawling



And who did Ali have more trouble with? Foreman or the guys who could box with him?

[Beanflicker]

What do you mean he hasn't fought anyone?? Otis Tisdale, the Big Buck Sedrick Fields, he's fought em all

[The Promoter]

He wasn't Willie Pep in there and he wasn't even Lennox Lewis or Felix Savon....he did what he did in the pros only he didn't hit hard (like he did in the pros) until he trained with Sonny Liston

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NABqIWMCvI0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLv-Ye-HHC4


Foreman was just a brute in there....there is no "boxing" only brawling



And who did Ali have more trouble with? Foreman or the guys who could box with him?

Foreman was 22-4 as an amateur and while he started relatively late at 17 he quickly became dominant, yes it was mosly do to his power...but unlike other big hitters he knew how to use his size and power and not much changed when he came back after retiring for ten years...the only difference was that what were mid-tier fighter in his first career were now top contenders and champions...face it if foreman was just "a brute" his career would have been no more than George Chuvalo's but Foreman was a great deal more..If what you say is true then George should have had siginficantly more decision victories in his "second career", did he?...If you want to argue about how fighters today are so much bigger, stronger and better how can you explain the success of RJJ, James Toney, Chris Byrd, Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer at heavyweight?

Now getting back to Ali-Foreman, first Ali's legs were done when hey fought in 74 it was his wits that took Foreman's heart and belt that night...To this day big George says the reason he never got his rematch was that "I didn't want one"... you see, even a declining Ali had the ability to beat his opponents in so many ways...

I was unaware that Foreman ever trained with Liston and since he was knocking everyone out in the amateurs I didn't think he needed anyone to teach him how to hit...

[El Kabong]

....Jesus dude...Foreman was a freak of nature he won the Olympics with only a year of boxing to go on and won another heavyweight title at 45 years old and it's not because the fighters were easy.

Holyfield is 45 right now do you see him beating guys like Foreman did when he came back? Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes fought long in their careers and they never achieved the success late in their careers that George did. If it was more of the status quo that fighters maintain power for that long then Mike Tyson would still be around as a top level fighter. Foreman in his comeback was a faaaaaar different fighter than in his Prime...in his prime he was a hook and uppercut puncher and in his comeback he threw the 1-2 for the most part.

My reasoning is that if Foreman threw the 1-2 more vs Ali he would have #1 kept Ali from countering as good as he did kit would be impossible to stop him completely but keeping distance with your punches would make Ali have to reach out more when he countered therefore making him easier to counter back #2 If Foreman was more measured in his attack he wouldn't have wore himself out


Ali won because Foreman didn't throw straight punches and therefore didn't connect cleanly but me explaining how Ali had SOME flaws and IS human is like talking to a brick wall.....I get attacked for not respecting Ali....actually when you add in his flaws his career is MORE impressive but hey who am I to try and explain this kind of stuff....Ali was a God and needed his own division because mere mortals shouldn't even be allowed to mention his name let alone step in the ring with him.

[rjj tszyu]

....Jesus dude...Foreman was a freak of nature he won the Olympics with only a year of boxing to go on and won another heavyweight title at 45 years old and it's not because the fighters were easy.

Holyfield is 45 right now do you see him beating guys like Foreman did when he came back? Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes fought long in their careers and they never achieved the success late in their careers that George did. If it was more of the status quo that fighters maintain power for that long then Mike Tyson would still be around as a top level fighter. Foreman in his comeback was a faaaaaar different fighter than in his Prime...in his prime he was a hook and uppercut puncher and in his comeback he threw the 1-2 for the most part.

My reasoning is that if Foreman threw the 1-2 more vs Ali he would have #1 kept Ali from countering as good as he did kit would be impossible to stop him completely but keeping distance with your punches would make Ali have to reach out more when he countered therefore making him easier to counter back #2 If Foreman was more measured in his attack he wouldn't have wore himself out


Ali won because Foreman didn't throw straight punches and therefore didn't connect cleanly but me explaining how Ali had SOME flaws and IS human is like talking to a brick wall.....I get attacked for not respecting Ali....actually when you add in his flaws his career is MORE impressive but hey who am I to try and explain this kind of stuff....Ali was a God and needed his own division because mere mortals shouldn't even be allowed to mention his name let alone step in the ring with him.

Lyle I know Ali had his flaws. The main one being he was suseptible to a good left hook (Frazier+Cooper). He was never really troubled too badly by the 1-2. What perople are trying to say is basically look through history at the great heavys and very rare do you get one above 230lbs, the only real exception being Lennox but even he IMO wasn't as good as a prime Holyfield and got him at the right time!

[El Kabong]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree

[amat]

Come on guys, don't give Ali any credit for anything when Lyle is in the thread. You should know better.

[rjj tszyu]

Come on guys, don't give Ali any credit for anything when Lyle is in the thread. You should know better.

I KNOW I KNOW! But what can I say? GOAT= Cassius Marcellus Clay (AKA Muhammad Ali)

[bzkfn]

....he's the American version of Audley Harrison

Not exactly. Audley hasn't won all of his fights...lol

[El Kabong]

Come on guys, don't give Ali any credit for anything when Lyle is in the thread. You should know better.

I give Ali credit but when I critique him as a fighter people think that I don't think Ali is as great as he actually was and that is a mistake on your part.


Ali was indeed a great fighter footwork, handspeed, and a crafty type of power more reliant on speed and accuracy which overwhelmed his opponents.