Zen Master Pacfan and Taoist Andre.

[Dizaster]

Okay I have a few questions... I'll just write them separate so they can be addressed separately or and answer whatever one you like.

Firstly the background of the questions is i've almost finished reading Eckhart Tolle's New Earth and have some fresh questions in my mind regarding that stuff. I've been leading down this sort of path before reading this book, but i'm really trying to practice it now and explore it.. So these questions are fresh in my mind right now..

1. Say that previously I was going from thing to thing to get frustrated about. I was generally unhappy, but mainly I would 'enjoy' getting angry at things. Emphasizing my separateness from everyone else as often as possible, and how they are wrong and I am right. For a specific example, I would get mad at people doing dumb/dangerous things on the road nearly second by second. I would take it personally and get mad, rapt up in emotions, and stay angry, constantly affirming how bad they are for what they did... (to get over this, among other things i've realised that there will ALWAYS someone be doing something wrong.. possibly every minute of every day for the rest of my life.. And I can never change it, so I can either get mad every single time and suffer, or not care about it and spend my entire drive being content) Now say I dropped that negativity. I ignore what they do. I don't let the hateful "righteous" dialog start. I don't let any emotion creep in... Basically it can be a spec of irrelevance now. I see what they do, and my mind, body, or emotion do not even acknowledge it..
But, eliminating all that negativity, I feel like i'm left with nothing.. It's sure better than being angry, obviously, but I don't feel quite at that peace level yet. possibly far from it... It's more of an empty.. It's a lack of negativity which is good, but it's a lack of anything....

1 a) Should the eventual path lead to something other than negativity? like a replacement feeling? or is the state of "no negativity" the ultimate goal?

1 b) Is it that I should just continue to cultivate "no negativity", and slowly a natural happiness/peace will replace it...? It's just that I can't expect to let go of a lifelong negativity for one day, and expect overall for it to be replaced immediately?

1 c) Or, after losing the negativity, ignoring all the negative things in the world I usually play off, I am half way there - Then for that positive feeling I think is missing - I should say - Drive around instead, looking and saying "wow, those are really pretty trees". "The sky is a beautiful blue today"?


Actually, that was only one of my questions, but it's a pretty good one so far.. I have another one but i'll ask it later when I can think of a good way to phrase it... The above one is pretty puzzling to me at the moment.. Because I feel like i've stripped away a lot of the negativity that I would usually 'celebrate' in a way, constantly... But JUST stoppingdoing that, means at least 2 hours of every day now is NOT spent being pissed off or angry, or playing negative stuff in my head over and over... and of course, that has to be a good thing for anyone to do. To ger rid of all that.. But past eliminating the negative - What can I expect next, or what is the next step?

[Dizaster]

You know what, here is another way I thought of putting it... Is peace and happiness simply what is left after eliminating all negativity and unhappiness, and even though I have eliminated some of this, I just have not gotten rid of all negativity yet?

Or, is coming to/finding peace & happiness not just a process of eliminating/removal (of negative), but also of seeking and adding (positive)?

[pacfan]

Dizaster, I can answer most of them when I have some spare time. I'll probably answer them in a piecemeal fashion so please be patient. I'll be back later for the first round. In the meantime, I think you need a name change.

...just kiddin', pal.

[Dizaster]

Thanks for the reply.. Yeah maybe I should do a name change one day.. I am very attached with it though.. (I get the irony of that also considering i'm studying ego)


What I wanted to do is post 2 sayings that I came up with myself.. It is closely entwined with what i'm reading in Eckhart Tolle's book. But I occassionaly like to reword things and lessons so they resonate better with me, and so whenever I read it, it can point me to that place/feeling whenver I wish..

This is probably going to sound pretty damn airy fairy so bare with me, but it is a really profound thing to me to have this realization/feeling, and if even one person shares that I would be happy.

" The stillness and unfathomable depth of space as you gaze up to it, is an exact mirror of the stillness, and unfathomable depth that is within you. Is you. And so you feel a recognition and affinity with it, where the connection is seamless and boundryless between your inner depth, and the depth of outer space. For that moment, you are one with space and everything. And you can feel it as real as happiness or sadness "

I have a second one too which is more of an observation I have just made now of where i'm at in this type of education/development.

" I am getting to a point where "space" and "stillness" are as tangible to me as a door or a wall. Where as before I did not perceive either, or spare any time or thought for them.... And it seems the more tangible space and stillness become to me, the more peace I feel, and the more I feel i'm touching who I really am and getting to know who I am.. The more I can "see" space and perceive it on the outside, the more I can feel and percieve it on the inside.. The more it continues to open up in me.. Where as before, and only on occassions, it may have only been the size of a pea inside me.. That inner stillness and space and depth now feels as though it is reaching my skin and almost fully filling my physical form... I guess the next step is to perceive "my" depth, stillness and space as going beyond my physical bounds. And eventually having no boundry, and feeling that "my" space is "at one" and connected seamlessly with everything else, and they are not seperate... "

I cannot remember, but it was either you or Andre who were writing out your favourite Zen quotes in another thread, and it was reading one of those that gave me my first glimpse of this.
It went something like :

" Give someone an empty bowl or doorway, and it is not the bowl or doorway that is of use, but the empty space inside them "

This was the first time i'd ever conciously felt space or stillness as a tangible thing that "exists". HUGE awakening for me..

[pacfan]

Okay, Dizaster, I’ve read your posts and got a pretty good idea what seems to be the problem and it’s not as complicated as I first thought, though I can’t say the same about the possible solutions. First off, let me congratulate you for being able to get rid of your negative feelings - you make it seem as if it were easy to do. But… I get the feeling that you are actually suppressing or controlling your feelings. If I’m right, you are actually suppressing your feelings in a blanket manner, and that explains why you’re not feeling good despite getting rid of the bad ones because you are suppressing the good ones as well. You can’t feel well when all your feelings are suppressed. So what you should be actually doing instead is to first let your feelings or emotions be set loose again and start from there. But make no mistake about it, mastering your thoughts, feelings and emotions is one of the most difficult thing to do that usually take years to master (it has been often compared to taming a wild beast). Of course, it’s better to start as soon as you can and make it your lifetime goal. Having a goal itself is one of the keys to happiness. I didn’t have the same type of problem you have so I can’t guarantee a sure-fire solution for it, but with my longtime experience and a bit of luck maybe I can help.

You were saying, to put it simply, that you easily get pissed off. The very first thing you do with any negative feeling is trying to get the sting out of the feeling itself, not the cause – at least not for now. I mean don’t be bothered by your negative feelings because that’s the first step towards letting it go. Negative feelings reinforce itself in a self-perpetuating manner when you keep feeling bad or being bother by the feeling itself. Just start by telling yourself, ‘so what if I feel pissed off by those nice bastards,’ and then, start letting go of those negative attitudes towards those people or situations that usually pisses you off. (Note that it’s important to distinguish between those people/situations that irritate you and that bad feeling you feel against that feeling of irritation itself. Do you follow me? Just in case, it’s like this: you felt(1) really pissed off by someone, and then later you felt(2) bad or guilty about it [being pissed off].) Because not being bothered by your negative feelings themselves is the first step toward letting go of it totally. Once you’re not bothered by those feelings themselves, then you can start doing the same with the situations and peoples that irritate you. Like, ‘I don’t give a damn about being pissed off by those nice bastards, but those things they do ain’t that bad after all.’ Remember the one of the most important law of the mind is: the more you are anxious about your negative feelings, the more stronger they becomes…

On as to whether you should replace your negative feelings with positive ones. The answer is definitely yes. It’s simple: when you’re happy, you’ll hardly or ever get pissed off, right? …


Of course all these are much more easier said than done, but it's a good starting point, to say the least. Hope they'll help.

[pacfan]

Thanks for the reply.. Yeah maybe I should do a name change one day.. I am very attached with it though.. (I get the irony of that also considering i'm studying ego)


What I wanted to do is post 2 sayings that I came up with myself.. It is closely entwined with what i'm reading in Eckhart Tolle's book. But I occassionaly like to reword things and lessons so they resonate better with me, and so whenever I read it, it can point me to that place/feeling whenver I wish..

This is probably going to sound pretty damn airy fairy so bare with me, but it is a really profound thing to me to have this realization/feeling, and if even one person shares that I would be happy.

" The stillness and unfathomable depth of space as you gaze up to it, is an exact mirror of the stillness, and unfathomable depth that is within you. Is you. And so you feel a recognition and affinity with it, where the connection is seamless and boundryless between your inner depth, and the depth of outer space. For that moment, you are one with space and everything. And you can feel it as real as happiness or sadness "

I have a second one too which is more of an observation I have just made now of where i'm at in this type of education/development.

" I am getting to a point where "space" and "stillness" are as tangible to me as a door or a wall. Where as before I did not perceive either, or spare any time or thought for them.... And it seems the more tangible space and stillness become to me, the more peace I feel, and the more I feel i'm touching who I really am and getting to know who I am.. The more I can "see" space and perceive it on the outside, the more I can feel and percieve it on the inside.. The more it continues to open up in me.. Where as before, and only on occassions, it may have only been the size of a pea inside me.. That inner stillness and space and depth now feels as though it is reaching my skin and almost fully filling my physical form... I guess the next step is to perceive "my" depth, stillness and space as going beyond my physical bounds. And eventually having no boundry, and feeling that "my" space is "at one" and connected seamlessly with everything else, and they are not seperate... "

I cannot remember, but it was either you or Andre who were writing out your favourite Zen quotes in another thread, and it was reading one of those that gave me my first glimpse of this.
It went something like :

" Give someone an empty bowl or doorway, and it is not the bowl or doorway that is of use, but the empty space inside them "

This was the first time i'd ever conciously felt space or stillness as a tangible thing that "exists". HUGE awakening for me..

Now that is a serious one. Not yet for the novice, but still good to ponder upon. The state of consciousness quoted in two paragraphs above is the state I get in during my meditation. But it took me years and years to reach that state. There is a higher state than that, though. They say that at the ultimate stage, you will be one with the world and, this is kinda scary, there will be no more distinction between yourself and the world. Zen is definitely a very worthwile endeavor to pursue. But don't keep your expectations to high. From experience, I can say that at first, there will be a feeling of euphoria, which later starts to wane and sometimes you get sort of dissillusioned. But if you keep at it, you will ride through a road of bumps, sometimes high and sometimes low. It's that highs that gets you going.

[Spicoli]

Their is no yin with out the yang.Some days I can be standing in a boisterous stressed area and be the calmest person in the room....other days its me that is the actual stress within that room,entirely

[brucelee]

Their is no yin with out the yang.Some days I can be standing in a boisterous stressed area and be the calmest person in the room....other days its me that is the actual stress within that room,entirely

Currently, what I do to get rid of all the negatives is to concentrate on my online computer game. Winning over my online enemies keeps me in a high state.

As a practical application, when I am around my computer, I forget all my problems.So I play until early morning, I go to bed really sleepy and I rarely think of my problems. This makes me happy all day.

[Bookkeeper]

Pacfan and Andre are some great posters, two of my favorites who go out of their way to get along with others. BTW what the FFFFF is a Zen

[Andre]

Pacfan and Andre are some great posters, two of my favorites who go out of their way to get along with others. BTW what the FFFFF is a Zen

Thanks mate nice of you to say so;
Zen is a type of Budisum I think ,like A Zen Buddist.

Im more into Taoism myself the quiet natural wisdom of the Chinese monk Lao Tszu. That is where the same wise expressions that those monks used to say to Grasshopper in the Kung Fu series all came from ,if you remember that show.

Toaism is being at peace with the way.
Tao means WAY. Toa te Ching =way of life ,way of universal being ,
Natures way etc.

I think Zen and Taoism have allot in common.

I also love sacred geometry and its keys and links back into to the universal plan of life,The mathmatics of dualism compared to that of the One. Love. This is the thing that glues together all ancient and esoteric wisdom including what the old astrologers from within the Egyptains ,Mayans,Tibetian Monks and the Jewish Kabbalistic priests of Ancient Lemura and Isreal all knew. It is what men like Vitruvius, Pythagoras,Leonardo Da vinci,to name but three of the best all came to realize ,that the flower of life holds all the keys to everything;which has all lead me from secretly hating God, into loving God instead of fearing one.
Which is where we all will find ourselves. Once we find the space and peace to move complete and freely as we were always supposed to always live then you can hear and see things in a new light.

Go Diz . He's on a path!

And a proven one too,Echart is .

Diz once you get it ,things will arise and take you right back to your old ways of anger. But just watch them and remain as seperate as you can by being the observer as soon as you can.Its not a failure to spit the dummy occasionally.We have that right to blow off steam.
This is just part of it. These tests will allow you realise that anger or hatred poured outwards onto others is more self destroying than the damage you think you're aiming at them.

It is habitual as well and your ego is the one that makes it so ,so that it can steal your time down here away from the real you.

Once you have the freedom of that space that you are feeling at the moment,continually; You will be like that empty cup you will be the doorway.

You will be filled with what is out there naturally and it will come, faster if you give thanks between you and it or if you ask for the next step to occur some thing will fall in lap as proof.

The ending of that expression you were talking about goes..

shape a vessel out of clay or cut windows or doors out of a wall ,it is the space within that makes them of use.
Therefore profit comes from what is there.
Usefulness comes from what is not there.

Same goes for life,business, boxing and now you.

[pacfan]

Hello Andre, how you've been?

Thanks, Bookkeeper, of course you're on my top buddy list yourself, one of the few guys who keep this place sane. I think Andre has said it all about Zzzzzen quite well...

This is probably going to sound pretty damn airy fairy so bare with me, but it is a really profound thing to me to have this realization/feeling, and if even one person shares that I would be happy.

" The stillness and unfathomable depth of space as you gaze up to it, is an exact mirror of the stillness, and unfathomable depth that is within you. Is you. And so you feel a recognition and affinity with it, where the connection is seamless and boundryless between your inner depth, and the depth of outer space. For that moment, you are one with space and everything. And you can feel it as real as happiness or sadness "

I have a second one too which is more of an observation I have just made now of where i'm at in this type of education/development.

" I am getting to a point where "space" and "stillness" are as tangible to me as a door or a wall. Where as before I did not perceive either, or spare any time or thought for them.... And it seems the more tangible space and stillness become to me, the more peace I feel, and the more I feel i'm touching who I really am and getting to know who I am.. The more I can "see" space and perceive it on the outside, the more I can feel and percieve it on the inside.. The more it continues to open up in me.. Where as before, and only on occassions, it may have only been the size of a pea inside me.. That inner stillness and space and depth now feels as though it is reaching my skin and almost fully filling my physical form... I guess the next step is to perceive "my" depth, stillness and space as going beyond my physical bounds. And eventually having no boundry, and feeling that "my" space is "at one" and connected seamlessly with everything else, and they are not seperate... "


This was the first time i'd ever conciously felt space or stillness as a tangible thing that "exists". HUGE awakening for me..

I'm back. Wow, the writer described the 'state' we long-time meditators get into during meditation very, very well, and it's really hard to put it into words. Let me try to describe in my own words:

When I meditate, my body seems to disappear somewhat and merge with the space beyond. I don't feel my body as we usually do but I feel it more as an energy. And that energy seems to radiate deep into the space beyond and I can feel the space much wider, which make it seem to add an extra dimension. I feel myself and the space as one. Everything feels airy, smooth and seemless, and I feel the peace, the light and the subtle but deep joy within and without...

That's the best I could do...


Now back to the original question. Ya, Dizaster, I have to say that once some strong emotion take hold of you, there's nothing much you can do about it. Most of the time, you are under it's control. So I won't try to tell that it'll be easy to get rid of them. No, it'll most likely take years and years of practices to be able to do that - the actual time will depend on how emotional you are. So in the next break, I'll just talk about how I've gotten rid of my negative emotions. In the meantime, just try not to be bothered by your negative emotions. That is the very first step and that'll take a little sting out of it. Taking the sting out of those emotions is the first step towards letting them go.

Adios for now, my friend.

[Andre]

I only disagree with the years and years comment above ,that is a personal choice if you want buy into that and a belife system within its self.
You could meditate like Buddha or Jesus today if you accepted yourself in your complete state of just being. Swimming is swimming whether your in 5 feet or 500,0000,0000,00000000000000000000000000000000 +feet

If the real truth is known,we are so much more grand in the scale of things than we already know and we are being held captive by what we have learn't and accepted, been taught in schools and through our folks and by what we are told we can and cant achieve and all the limits including all the man made religious ones. We have accepted limits but they are all false once you step into your own space and time. Proof is because others are out there doing it all right now and they are no different from anyone else. They just realized or were reminded that they could do as they wish and go to any length in any area.

Its all part of the trap of dualisum and being able to see only two sides to things. Truth is there is many more than two sides! Judgment of yourself is a limit placed on yourself. Same goes for judgment about others, it also comes back to your limits and you have then placed another one.

At any time you can cut right to the chase and accept who you really are and be as the Buddha or as all the other Christed ones from throughout history who have been given the truth in their own peoples storyline in a way they can accept it.

1 Acceptance of yourself ,2 love for yourself and 3 love for all the others who are all in this same boat as us, is the fastest route for anyone to gain all their original power back. People who belive in only what they are taught from an external point only, are in a way giving up on what could be real for them. It is once again acceptance of a limit that is real only if you place it.
By what you have started doing Diz you will find out there is no real limit within the space and time that (you haven't created for yourself ) You just rediscovered it by your acceptance that it exists and the peace,love and joy thats found there will increase in intensity to the point where your very molecules will vibrate at a higher frequency. There is no limits to that space it is eternally yours and you are eternally its.

Hope that answered your second question.

[Sharla]

" The stillness and unfathomable depth of space as you gaze up to it, is an exact mirror of the stillness, and unfathomable depth that is within you. Is you. And so you feel a recognition and affinity with it, where the connection is seamless and boundryless between your inner depth, and the depth of outer space. For that moment, you are one with space and everything. And you can feel it as real as happiness or sadness "

I love this qoute Diz!

I think there must be a reason people feel most peaceful when gazing out over a vast scenery like an ocean, the view from the top of a mountain etc. It's probably something most of us including myself don't do often enough.

Good thread anyway. I think a lot of the principles here sort of apply to me too. I can I guess feel kinda claustrophbic in my anger.

At the same time i wonder if we still need to be able to feel angry about some things to motivate change when it is needed. Perhaps in a more controlled way? Maybe I let things I'm angry about overflow and pollute other parts of my life?

I'm not sure if that makes sense at all but i'm going to come back and read this thread in full when i have more time. I appreciate you sharing all these things on te board Diz.

I think we are all on a journey in life except it's easy to feel like as individuals were the only one's facing these challenges. Sort of like were constantly playing catch up. The fact that you share your thoughts on yours helps in a way i think.

[pacfan]

I’m back. It makes me a bit uncomfortable when I talk too much about Zen, because Zen is more about experiencing than intellectualizing. Most westerners misunderstand Zen and tend to intellectualize it too much. Once I browsed through a large book about Zen written by a western mystic. But you see Intellectualizing Zen is antithesis of Zen itself, which is basically a way of clearing mind of thoughts instead of thinking. When we talk of other ideas, it’s natural to intellectualize, but it shouldn’t be so with Zen. That’s why when I engage in a long discussion here (or anywhere for that matter), I have to occasionally refresh myself by clearing my mind through meditation. This is because when I engage in long discussions, after a while I tend to be drawn by the discussion itself and start to think again in the usual mundane way. The right ways of thinking is done by first clearing our minds completely of our usual thoughts and prejudices, and then wait for the right answer to come. This is the way many famous discoveries were made. Remember Edison’s 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Therefore, so as not to intellectualize Zen too much, I’ll just talk about my long journey on the way to (because I’m not there yet totally) enlightenment. Here it goes:


My long road to enlightenment


When I was just a teenager, I was taught the rudiments of meditation. During meditation, I was supposed to keep my attention on one object and was to avoid straying away from it. Few years later, I decided to seriously pursue my meditation because I wanted peace of mind; that is, free from all negative thoughts and feelings. (Just remember, thoughts and feelings are separate matters – but – thoughts almost always control our feelings)

But over the years, no matter what I did during meditation, I wasn’t able to get rid of those negative thoughts. So one day I just decided to give up the idea of getting rid of them, just like the ‘if you can’t beat ‘em,’ thing, but of course I had no intention of ‘joining ‘em.’ Strangely, when I started to just let those negative thoughts be, but ignoring them, they began to bother me lesser and lesser. By letting them be and ignoring them, I was actually taking the sting out of them and more importantly I was able to let them go. When that happened, I began to have less negative thoughts and they were not as disturbing as before.


- Let it be, let it go - the most important principle of meditation


However, they didn’t disappear totally so I started to wonder why. After a long soul-searching, I found that our mind must be occupied by some thoughts, at least at the normal level. But at the same time, I also realized that negative thoughts and positives ones couldn’t occupy the same space (mind) at one time. So I realized that I must put positive thoughts in a space vacated by the negative one so they wouldn’t come back again. [This answers one of your questions, Diz] From there on, it was a seesaw battle between the good and the evil (lol), I mean between the negative and positive thoughts. Gradually, the positive started to win over the negative, until one day, it was almost totally positive, at least when I was meditating.

When that happened, strange things start to occur in my mind [I hope it’s not starting to sound like a fairy tale]. When positive thoughts, with the accompanying positive feelings, started to dominate my mind, the thoughts themselves started to disappear, while leaving behind only the feelings (positive). In other words, I became almost totally thoughtless, while feeling good at the same time. Then I gradually started to get into the ‘Zen state’ that was described in Diz’s quotes and my previous post here. To describe it a bit, what you feel in that state immediately is the energy and the sense of space. Even when you are in a small crowded room, when you close your eyes, you seem to be in an infinite space with an added dimension. Aside from that, you’ll also feel the energy flowing in your body, and when you close your eyes, you only feel the energy and the energy seems to merge with the space beyond. My theory for this perhaps is that the energy that flows from the body also flows thru the space and the energies are probably flowing between the body and the space in a seamless manner. That probably explains why I feel totally connected with the space surrounding me – because I’m feeling the energy, not my body, which we usually feel during the ordinary state. This is the level of enlightenment I’m in at this moment…

* * * * * * * * * * * * *


Just remember the most important aspect of this philosophy I've learned - the principle of letting it be and letting go; here lies the most important secrets of meditation. Just recently, I think Andre quoted a famous Chinese philosopher something about holding on to or grabbing/grasping something, that was one good example of this principle. You may not understand the importance of this seemingly simple principle but if you pursue your Zen studies, eventually you will. Believe me, it's my nearly 30 year worth of wisdom that I gained thru meditation.


Ok, Dizaster, this all I can say on this topic. But if you have any question, you can post it here. I'll try my best to answer. Good luck, my friend.

[Andre]

What Echart has done Diz is got you to that point very fast by showing you tools within your mind that others have had to find on their own.
Its good.
It is all a journey, and there is no end and there is no pecking order.
Acceptance of what is and letting it go is the key to opening new doors that is all ,no great secrets.
Although there is many differrent roads home to yourself; some practices are harsh and fast and direct; others softer and more curved. Different schools of different practices. Each to their own in these cases; its a journey back into yourself ,not a race forwards into the unknown.